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Author Topic: Did some demons escape the pit ?  (Read 5674 times)

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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2015, 04:17:10 PM »

Gina,

It's not worth arguing with you but for the sake of those less learned I will try and make this as concise and to the point as possible.

Ray makes it abundantly clear that the Cherub and King of Tyre are two different beings.

Ez 28:14 "On the day you were created, I placed you [King of Tyre] beside the kherubs on the sacred hill of God; you walked amid the flashing thunder-stones" (A New Translations by James Moffatt)

So pay attention, there are two beings here in similar location. Now The King of Tyre is expelled from the mountain of God while the Cherub is cast out from among the fiery stones.

Ezekiel 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee [King of Tyre] as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Maybe another translation will help?

Ezekiel 28:14 "...So I expelled you in disgrace from the mountain of God, and banished you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones." Holman

Ezekiel 28:14 "...So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones."  New International Version

You even said yourself the King of Tyre is not the Cherub so why can't you see what is happening to the king of tyre and the guardian cherub?

The passage is obscure and variation in translations exist but the vast majority of translations agree that the King of Tyre is expelled from God's mountain and the Cherub is 'destroyed' or 'removed' from among the fiery stones. I believe one translation shows the Cherub as doing the driving out but that is one of many who show the complete opposite.

Ezekiel 28:16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire. (RSV)

In Christ,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Gina

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Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2015, 04:21:59 PM »

Hi, Rick

The big take away from all of this is:  Don't follow after the lawlessness and wickedness of others.  Don't worry about where those demons are.  If you are doing what Peter said to do, adding to your faith, you will never fall.
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Gina

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Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2015, 05:11:43 PM »

....  In case it got buried, here's what Peter is saying:

2 Pet. 1

5 ....  make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,

6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,

7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.

8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.

10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you PRACTICE (just practice) these qualities (instead of practicing evil) you will NEVER fall.   



What's more fascinating to you, trying to figure out where the demons are?  Or what Peter says to do:


What Peter is saying is that when we practice these qualities, just practicing them, you will NEVER FALL.  WOW!
So, just by PRACTICING these qualities, we will NEVER fall.

Jesus' words were so true:  Learn of me because I'm humble.  My yoke is easy and my burden is light.  How hard can it be to just practice these things?




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Rick

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Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2015, 08:57:59 PM »

Thanks Gina,


There are some great answers here, I clearly see in me much needs to be unlearned.  I understand now that demons are false doctrines also they can be false teachers as well as false prophets

Christendom and movies from Hollywood has made a mockery of my understanding with their demons.


Hello Kat,

Your input which I copied and pasted below versifies what Gina is also suggesting is a great confirmation for me and also anyone else who’s understanding is inaccurate about demons as mine was.
 
The "angels of God" (Matt 25:31) and the "angels of the Devil" (Matt. 25:31) are the same Greek word, #32, 'angelos,' and the definition of this Greek word is: 'an angel, messenger, or pastor.' (Strong's Greek Dictionary). Nowhere is this word defined as "a demon.

 The Devil's angels are the Devil's ministers, and they are mortal men


Next we must understand that demons are FALSE DOCTRINES -- "doctrines of demons" Paul calls them. So anything that would influence us to believe in, follow, or be persuaded by any such things are demons influences.

Alex

Your right to say ( I think there is a lot in the answers provided here )
.

Kat gave the Greek word meaning word # 32 definition ( Greek word, #32, 'angelos,' and the definition of this Greek word is: 'an angel, messenger, or pastor ) now that much has been cleared up for me but I find I’m still confused about  Luk 8:27 when I read this part of the verse (  As Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a man from the town who had demons in him )


from what I’m understanding in this thread and the great replies I received and then applied this understanding to Luk 8: 27 that verse would render (  Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a man from the town who had false information in him ) or if I use angle then it would render ( Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a man from the town who had angles in him )

You see my problem with either rendering, part of my understanding is still lacking here.  ???
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 09:00:45 PM by Rick »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2015, 09:17:15 PM »

Hi Rick,

I feel like you're trading one extreme perspective for another. Yes, demons can be false doctrines, but they aren't only false doctrins. Ray once said that he had exercised out seven demons from a woman with the help of other church goers. The demons weren't very clever as they had simple names like, "Bok, Boook" etc... I can't find the specific audio where he goes into detail on that exercosim but he does reference it in an email below briefly.

Ray believes there are demons (and not just as doctrine!) and mentions them numerous times. Here's a few emails from Ray.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2540.0.html -------

Dear Michelle:
The only spirits "roaming around" are demons, not the spirits of DEAD people.

God be with you,
Ray

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2600.0.html ----

Dear Brenda:
ALL of God's created celestial beings are "messengers."  Angel means messenger. From that Perspective, Jesus is a Messenger (Mal. 3:1-2).  If these messengers are bad, we might refer to them as devils, demons, OR adversaries, but they are STILL MESSENGERS.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1910.0.html -------

Dear Chris:

    There have been probably 5 to 10 thousand volumes written on demons and exorcism. It is not likely that I can explain this subject in five to ten sentences.

    There is "possession" and there is "obsession."  Many people are obsessed with demons and evil spirits rather than being actually possessed and totally out of control mentally.

    Catholic exorcism is more superstition than Scriptural.  Protestant ministers try to shout and SCREAM them out of people.  I had only a few personal experiences with people who were demonized.  With one elderly woman we prayed and one by one Jesus casted out a half dozen or so demons--each with his own name, I might add.

    The truth is that we "wrestle against such spiritual wickedness in high places" (Eph. 6:12).  It is part of our Christian walk of faith.

    The world is filled with "spirits of antichrist."  Many Christians worship these spirits.  I cast out dozens and dozens of these spirits of antichrist on our bible-truth.com site, and many pastors, theologians, and Christians hate and despise me for doing it. They love these evil spirits. But always remember, that if you have the Spirit of God in you, then:

    "Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world" (I John 4:3-4).

    God be with you,

    Ray


------------------------------------

I can think of scriptural more examples of things we would consider demons that are certainly not pastors or false doctrines. Remember the messenger from satan that beat paul over the head with 'inordinate blows?'

You need to try and be a bit more fluid in your understanding and apply all you've learned to all of scripture. Everything is one. Don't be so rigid and just remember some basic truths. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established, the sum of God's Word is truth, and no verse is at all becoming its own interpretation. Most importantly, Remember, By God's spirit alone and only can any of this be understood by anyone. Obedience is key!

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Dave in Tenn

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Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2015, 09:35:08 PM »

Just to add to what Alex just posted:

Use a 'translation' and not a 'paraphrase' when you are studying.  That's not explicitly directed at you, but to anybody who wants to study these things out.  It's still not 'easy' and isn't meant to be, but the WORDS of scripture are inspired and with a translation (even if it's not always a good one) you have a basis for study that a paraphrase can't give you. 

Luk 8:27  And as he got out of the ship on the land, a certain man out of the city met him, who had demons a long time, and put on no clothes, and did not abide in a house, but in the tombs.

That's from Darby's translation.  He used "demons" because that's a close translation/transliteration of the inspired Greek word.  He didn't use "angels", "spirits" or "devils". 

I only want to add this:  If a "demon" is a false doctrine (and I do believe it is) and it has not "possessed" you, controlled your thoughts and actions, affected the quality of your life, etc., then you have been blessed not to experience the full power of it.  And all of them do have names...theologians love to name them. 

The poor man mentioned in the passage didn't just have some "wrong information", he lived under it's control and for a long time.

Conversely, if "truth" has not possessed you, impacted your thoughts and actions, affected the quality of your life, etc, etc,, then you haven't experienced the full power of it, just ticked the 'right' box.  HE is the Truth and He lives. 

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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Dave in Tenn

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Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2015, 09:45:05 PM »

Alex, I remember the messenger of Satan who delivered inordinate blows to Paul.

http://bible-truths.com/splinter.html 

"Paul’s splinter was a messenger of Satan. His purpose was to buffet Paul. Buffeting was the category that Paul said happened to him inordinately, which answers in kind to Paul’s transcendence in revelations. So Paul lived for twenty-five years, being "hit hard," "suddenly," constantly and incessantly (like an aggravating "splinter in the flesh.")"

My goodness, that sounds familiar, though for the first 25 years, in my life, the messenger of Satan got the best of me.

MESSENGER OF SATAN, not a demon.  And I reckon a messenger of Satan can and does have multiple "mouths" and ministers just as the Word of God had multiple prophets and servants and 'examples'.



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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

lilitalienboi16

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Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2015, 09:52:38 PM »

Alex, I remember the messenger of Satan who delivered inordinate blows to Paul.

http://bible-truths.com/splinter.html 

"Paul’s splinter was a messenger of Satan. His purpose was to buffet Paul. Buffeting was the category that Paul said happened to him inordinately, which answers in kind to Paul’s transcendence in revelations. So Paul lived for twenty-five years, being "hit hard," "suddenly," constantly and incessantly (like an aggravating "splinter in the flesh.")"

My goodness, that sounds familiar, though for the first 25 years, in my life, the messenger of Satan got the best of me.

MESSENGER OF SATAN, not a demon.  And I reckon a messenger of Satan can and does have multiple "mouths" and ministers just as the Word of God had multiple prophets and servants and 'examples'.

Yup and here are some of those things he suffered as ray put it because of this messenger:

II Cor. 11:22-28. Jails, blows, deaths, beatings, shipwrecks, stoning, and constant dangers of every kind, day after day, year after year, decade after decade! Who can comprehend such a life? Who could ever endure such a life? After the first scourging and the second shipwreck, I believe I would throw in the towel.

Now show me a false doctrine that can conjure up a storm! Maybe a pastor? Not likely! The greek word for demon is not used here but it is certainly an evil messenger and as ray said "if these messengers are bad, we might refer to them as devils, demons, OR adversaries, but they are STILL MESSENGERS." Amen.

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Dave in Tenn

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Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2015, 09:56:23 PM »

No Alex, he suffered those things first because he was out there preaching the Gospel.  Shipwrecks, storms, etc. were NOT the works of this "messenger of Satan".  INORDINATE BLOWS were.  Read it again.
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Kat

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Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2015, 09:56:50 PM »


Hi Rick,

This is a complex topic, there are no simple answers. But I believe all of this discussion has brought out some good points to be considered and has been helpful.

Here are a few more places Ray spoke on this, that may help you find a few more pieces of the puzzle. And I found what Alex was speaking of where Ray spoke of an experience he had, that was from the '07 Nashville conference 'WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER?' It's the last one down.

http://bible-truths.com/email9.htm#wrestle ----------------------

[Ray Replies]

Dear Jim:

Well, just like almost everything else Christians adopt as truth, their knowledge of demons and spirits is equally eschew.  First, Jim, always remember the basics:

"...for it is not ours to wrestle with blood and flesh, but with the sovereignties, with the authorities, with the world-mights of this darkness, with the spiritual forces of wickedness among the celestials" (Eph. 6:12).

So it is NOT the physical that is our biggest problem (flesh and blood), being overweight, etc.

Next we must understand that demons are FALSE DOCTRINES -- "doctrines of demons" Paul calls them. So anything that would influence us to believe in, follow, or be persuaded by any such things are demons influences.

So when we speak of "anger" we are in the realm of the spirit. James says, "Whosoever is ANGRY with his brother is a MURDERER"! WOW! "Be angry and SIN NOT -- do not let the sun go down upon your ANGER" is another. 

So being overweight and having uncontrolled anger are two totally different things.  Being overweight is no more a sin than having flat feet. There are thousands of things in the biological makeup of our bodies over which we have and nor can we have control. If one is a total glutton, that is a lust of the flesh, but MANY overweight people eat very little for their size. But anger, that's different. Anger comes from within the man and it can cause one to SIN.

Now then, what do we do with the demons of anger, lust, and other aberrant behavior, cast them out?  Well, if all we had to do was "cast them out," we wouldn't have to "wrestle" with them, would we?

Satan and his demons have their role in God's creation. God Himself has even commissioned LYING spirits to go out and do their dirty work (I Kings 22:22). So demons are real, they are here, and they will be around for a long time.

How should we handle them -- ask the preacher to cast them all out so that we are clean and will never be bothered in any spiritual way again, not to mention having a perfect size body? No, here's what God tells us we should do after telling us that we DO WRESTLE against these forces:

"Therefore take up the panoply [armor] of God that you may be enabled to WITHSTAND in the wicked day, and having effected all, to STAND.  STAND, then, girded about your loins with TRUTH [remember I said demons are FALSE doctrines], with the cuirass of righteousness put on, and your feet sandaled with the readiness of the evangel [gospel] of peace; with all taking up the large shield of FAITH, by which you WILL BE ABLE TO EXTINGUISH ALL THE FIERY ARROWS OF THE WICKED ONE."

So the truth is that we continue to wrestle and do battle with them -- it is good for us to do so, it MAKES US STRONG in the TRUTH and in our reliance of God's spiritual armor to protect us.

Hope that helps your understanding a little better.


http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html -------------------------------------

"And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the DEVILS are subject unto us through your name. And he said unto them, [I know] I BEHELD Satan as lightning fall from heaven [when and as it was happening through the commands of His disciples]."

Christ’s disciples were filled with JOY over the power that Jesus had given them so that even spirits were subject to them. Jesus had just said that He would thrust Capernaum down from THEIR HEAVEN, their high place in their own mind. Next the disciples report back that they were able to cast down spirits (demons) from men’s minds, from their own heavens. They were excited to tell Jesus what they had done. They had the power to cast down DEMONS from men’s heavens, from out of their MINDS. And Jesus answered them back by saying, YES, I KNOW, I BEHELD Satan (prince of the devils and demons), fall from the heaven of men’s minds while you were doing it! And then even Jesus "rejoiced" (Verse 21).

God has a heaven. It is a SPIRIT REALM. It is where God lives and has His Being. Men too have a heaven. It is likewise, the REALM where they live and have their being—they spiritually live in their own minds, their own heavens.

Notice Prov. 23:7, "For as he THINKS in his heart, SO IS HE." The ‘heart’ is the innermost seat of our deepest emotions, but it is accessed through the MIND. It is what one thinks that determines what one is. When the king of Babylon THOUGHT that he had ascended into heaven in his mind, then that is where HE WAS, "so IS he." But ... BUT, it was man’s heaven and not God’s. No ‘man,’ no ‘carnal man’ has ever ascended into God’s heaven of spirit,

"And NO MAN has ascended up to heaven [God’s heaven], but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN [right at the very time He was speaking these words]" (John 3:13).

Jesus could live "on earth" and "in heaven" at the same time! But carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time. Man’s heaven is a place of spiritual delusion; whereas God’s heaven is a place of spiritual enlightenment.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2600.0.html -------------

ALL of God's created celestial beings are "messengers."  Angel means messenger. From that Perspective, Jesus is a Messenger (Mal. 3:1-2).  If these messengers are bad, we might refer to them as devils, demons, OR adversaries, but they are STILL MESSENGERS.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg37590.html#msg37590 ---

Somebody ask me last week about demons. There really are these things. I’ve had a little experience and I know some of them by name. 

My friend, Eliot from Brooklyn, we went to college together. I was living in Mobile at the time, I had moved away for 20 years, then came back. We were going to meet at Mt. Pocono, because there was a large church up there. We were in Worldwide and they had a festival up there, so I was going to meet Eliot there. It was one of those spooky nights. By the time the last service was over and with the fellowshipping. The sun was going down, it got dark early and it was raining and foggy. 

One of the ministers came up to Eliot and me and ask us to come to a side room, ‘We have a little problem.’ We said okay, we’ll help and went with him. So in the room there was about 5 of us and there was this women. She was about 75 years old, with gray hair, a little on the hefty side. She was acting strange. So we ask what was going on, and he said, ‘well we think Anne is having a problem.’ So we were gathered around and Anne was looking a little strange, she would snarl her face up and say, ‘I know who you are.’ This was a 75 year old woman, with gray hair and she is talking like a monster, you know. We said, okay we know what we got here. These things would take her over and she would get violent and wanted to attack us. There were five strong men, in our 30’s trying to hold her down. 

This was a 75 year old lady, each of us had one arm one leg, she was just violent. We would ask, ‘who are you?’ She would just snarl and then she would give us a name. We didn’t know, so we would just command these things to come out, in the name of Jesus Christ. Then she would settle down and be like, ‘what are you all doing?’ We’d say, well you’re not feeling to good Anne, ‘well, what’s wrong?’ You are just not feeling good right now. Then her face would snarl up and she would start yelling at us.  We would say, who are you?  It’s kind of comical now, I don’t think that demons are smart. I remember that at one point there was one, I did know them all, but I started to forget them. But this one was named Bok, and we cast out Bok.  Then we cast out a bunch of others. So one after the other, they would just take her and we’d cast them out, then she would just settle down and be fine. She would say, ‘what’s wrong, why am I on the floor?’ She didn’t know what was happening.  We would ask each one’s name and it was a different demon. One time I ask who are you, and it said ‘Bouk,’ we said wait a minute we just cast you out, it said, ‘no, that was Bok, I’m Bouk.’ I’m serious. 

We were there for an hour or two, casting out demons. Some of them just would not come out, it said, ‘the master would be very angry.’  We ask who is the master, it said, ‘ Beelzebub is the master.’ They didn’t want to come out. Then she would settle down for a while. Then this one, we said who are you, it said ‘no’ we said we command you in the name of Jesus Christ what is your name, ‘no’ we said we command you, you have to tell us, ‘my name is no.’ She would settle down and then another would take her over and she would want to attack us and kill us. I tell you by the time we were done, it was enervating. We knew we were in a different realm. We ask them questions and we ask them about stuff, we knew about to see if they knew about it. So this stuff is real. This is not fairy land or the wizard of Oz, this stuff really does exist. They're spirits in the air.

It says in Hebrews you better watch how you treat strangers, because you might be entertaining an angel unaware, you know. Now I don’t know if a demon can manifest themselves as human. But I don’t see any examples of that.

I only tell you these things so you will understand that it is bizarre. All this stuff, it’s real. It’s real, because we are here. Many times I’ve said if I wasn’t here, I just wouldn’t believe any of this.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2015, 10:02:56 PM »

No Alex, he suffered those things first because he was out there preaching the Gospel.  Shipwrecks, storms, etc. were NOT the works of this "messenger of Satan".  INORDINATE BLOWS were.  Read it again.

Hi Dave,

I thought the "blows" was those events? Are not each one of those a blow to paul? You mean paul was literaly beat over the head? O.o

From The article:

"Buffeting" comes from the Greek word kol aph iz’o = CHASTEN-FROM. It means: "to rap with the fist" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary p. 43. Webster’s, buffet, (bufit) n. a blow. "A blow." Now where have we seen that before?

II Cor. 11:23--"...in blows inordinately..."

Again, Webster’s New World Dictionary, blow n. 1 a hard hit, as with the fist, 2 a sudden attack 3 a sudden calamity; shock.

Webster’s Twenteth-Century Dictionary gives us an even broader definition: buffeting, n. 1. A striking with the hands. 2. A succession of blows; strife; opposition; adversity.

So now we have a good idea of the meaning of this word "buffet"--A hard hit (especially to the face,) sudden attack, sudden calamity, shock, succession of blows, strife, opposition, and adversity. Why would Paul call all this pain and calamity "a splinter?" A splinter seems rather mild compared to the miseries that define buffet. That’s because Paul is not speaking of intensity when he speaks of a "splinter," but rather the incessantness of a splinter. The pain and aggravation is constant. It never goes away. It plagues one with every move until the splinter is removed.

The idiomatic expression "a splinter in my flesh" is still in popular usage. We alter it slightly to "a thorn in my flesh" or "a thorn in my side." We say things like: "Jack as been a thorn in my side ever since he came to work here."

The pain that Paul suffered from his hundreds of trials was obviously very intense. However, an analogy of a "splinter in the flesh" is not a description of intensity, but rather of its uninterrupted, nonstop, persistence. Paul suffered by buffeting for fourteen years PRIOR to his writing II Corinthians, and probably another eleven years after writing II Corinthians, seeing that God never did remove it from him ("Sufficient for you is My grace...").

Imagine twenty-five years of such suffering by being buffeted by a messenger of Satan. Why so much? Why so severe? Why so long?


---------------------------------------------------
Ray seems to tie the "splinter in the flesh" of that paragraph I bolded which is directly related to the messenger of satan and his blows back to the many trials Paul suffered and would continue to suffer all his life. He says its not the intensity of them but rather the ever constant occurrence of those trials that makes them like a splinter in the flesh. He even says he suffered these things for fourteen years PRIOR to the writting of Cor II which you said was instead because of his preaching the gospel.

So are you sure?

God bless,
Alex
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 10:09:16 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Dave in Tenn

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Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2015, 10:15:42 PM »

Just read it again.  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. 

The way I read it there is a distinction between all of those other trials and the "inordinate blows/stripes" delivered by the Messenger of Satan.  Shipwrecks are not storms.  Beatings are not imprisonment.  Inordinate blows are not occasional trials and troubles--all of those can happen to anybody, and do.  "Inordinate blows" were the "splinter in the flesh" by the Messenger of Satan were in answer to the transcendence of his vision.  That's not common to every Tom, Dick, and Mary.

"We are now left with just one category in a class all of its own. "... in blows inordinately ..." (Verse 23).

Only the trial of "blows" does Paul label "inordinately." Why? Is there something unique about this particular category of trial (blows?) Yes there is!"

I'm not suggesting that the other trials were ALL simply the result of 'bad misfortune'.  Some have very much to do with his preaching.  The Jews didn't beat him to rob him, after all.  Some, on the other hand, were more common evils God intended for good to humble Paul and to test him.  But they aren't the "inordinate blows/stripes" that are contrasted with the "abundance"/transcendence of the revelation that is his 'splinter in the flesh'.

Taken as a whole?  Perhaps.  Each a part of the whole?  Maybe.  But it still seems to me that these 'blows/stripes' (his 'splinter in the flesh'=messenger of Satan, given to him by God are in a category alone.         
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 11:01:49 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

lilitalienboi16

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Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2015, 10:31:31 PM »

Just read it again.  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.  But the way I read it there is a distinction between all of those other trials and the "inordinate blows" delivered by the Messenger of Satan.  Shipwrecks are not storms.  Beatings are not imprisonment.  Inordinate blows are not occasional trials and troubles--all of those can happen to anybody, and do.  "Inordinate blows" by the Messenger of Satan were the result of the transcendence of his vision.  That's not common to every Tom, Dick, and Mary.

Hi Dave,

I did read it again.

Ray's intro to all this seems to be setting up the opposite argument. He makes it clear the amount of trials paul suffered were not occasional let alone common to every body which made it all very bizarre and abnormal. Let me quote it for you here:

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PAUL’S BIZARRE LIFE

No one in the history of the world has ever lived a life as Paul did. Read II Cor. 11:22-28. Jails, blows, deaths, beatings, shipwrecks, stoning, and constant dangers of every kind, day after day, year after year, decade after decade! Who can comprehend such a life? Who could ever endure such a life? After the first scourging and the second shipwreck, I believe I would throw in the towel.

Some years ago, I meditated on the incredible hardships that Paul endured while taking the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the nations. Clearly, (in the relative world,) time and chance and circumstance would never produce the plethora of catastrophes Paul faced daily.

Imagine this. You return home from a three-day business trip to Puerto Rico. In shock, your wife greets your tattered body at the door. "What happened to you?" she asks.

"Well dear, after disembarking in Puerto Rico I was dragged back into an alley where several men beat and robbed me. They even took my clothing. I stumbled back to the main street in my underwear, where police promptly arrested me for indecent exposure. They took me to jail. After verifying my identity and passage on the ship, they let me go the next day. I acquired a new credit card at a local bank. A small clinic charged me $3500 to clean and bandage a few flesh wounds. I didn’t call you for fear you would panic.

I didn’t attend my business meetings. I lost a big account for my company. I went to the beach to relax and heal. The second day I took a swim and was stung by several jellyfish. I was again taken to a doctor. The third day I boarded ship to return to Miami. Midway home, the ship sank. There were sharks everywhere, but thank God, the Coast Guard arrived in a few hours."

All would agree, that that would be just "too much." Not for Paul, however.



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Ray seems to be arguing about the FREQUENCY with which Paul suffered these things. THAT was the inordinate (EXCESSIVE) blows. A blow can be a calamity. I always understood it as the reason Paul suffered so much the way he did was because that messenger was always there lurking and waiting to hit Paul with the next "blow." However, God used this to keep Paul humble for his revelation and much like Satan who destroyed almost everything Job had but could not claim Job's life, God did not allow the messenger to actually take Paul's life because God had plans for Paul.

Towards the bottom of the article ray states:

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We have to understand that Paul could not live normally, by just expecting a setback or trial from time to time as circumstances would allow. No. Paul traveled in foreign lands for years, fully conscious of the fact that this appointed messenger of Satan was always there, like a sniper in the dark, ready to suddenly pounce on Paul with blows of every description and severity of pain and agony. And how often did these things happen to Paul? Almost too often, and too much--INORDINATELY!

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Now I don't mean to mock dave at all, but what does blows of every description mean if not the various frequent trials of all sorts paul was experiencing? Does it mean a backhand to the face as opposed to the fist to the face as opposed to the palm to the face? I mean... again... i'm not trying to mock but I hope you see what I mean by not understanding the meaning of blows if it isn't the trials?

It Certainly makes sense to me for it to be the various calamities that befell Paul.

I agree that regardless of what the specifics of the blows were, the messenger of Satan is not common to everyone.

God bless,
Alex
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 10:49:16 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Kat

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Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2015, 11:03:26 PM »


2Co 12:7  And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.

Hi Alex, I will say it really depends on what you believe/understand that an messenger of Satan is capable of. In my research I'm convinced that these spirits/demons or whatever they should be called, could indeed inflict literal blows... not that they became physical, but able to somehow project energy in a way to cause what could be felt and do some harm. And I believe that is what Paul was speaking of, being literally attacked by a spiritual entity. Just wanted to add that to this discussion.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 11:31:15 PM by Kat »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2015, 11:19:41 PM »

Lest you think I'm just picking a theological bone, there aren't many of us who have suffered the things Paul suffered in a physical sense.  But everyone who has heard and is obeying the last call of Jesus to "come out of her, my people" is experiencing to some degree this God-given, messenger of Satan, 'thorn in the flesh' in relationship with the 'transcendence/highness' of what we've been graced to 'see'.  See my 'tagline/signature' below.  We're told not to be surprised, and to rejoice.  It may get worse before it gets better.

Paul went on to 'glory in his weakness'.  Despite some folk's obsession with the negative, there is a definite up-side to weakness.  God give us the faith and wisdom to see it, because everyone is going to live it.   
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

lilitalienboi16

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Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2015, 11:21:35 PM »

Kat and Dave,

Excellent Additions from both of you on this matter and I will remain open minded to both perspectives regarding pauls splinter in the flesh. I see no harm in understanding it either way. I think the agreement is this messenger was evil but ultimately God used it for pauls benefit.

My point in bringing it up along with Ray's experiences (and thank you Kat for finding that audio reference) and other emails was merely to add greater depth to this discussion and remind everyone that not all demons are false doctrines and not all messengers/angels are literal human pastors/ false prophets.

There is a whole heavenly host like the sons of God who shouted for Joy, the morning stars which sang, cherubims, arch angels by name, messengers (angels), demons, evil spirits etc....

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Dave in Tenn

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Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2015, 11:33:06 PM »

Believe what you want.  All I really want to ask of you is to let the words God inspired inform you, and not the 'topic' or doctrine 'about' demons.  Hal Lindsey messed me up enough.   
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Rick

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Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2015, 11:36:05 PM »

Hi Rick,

I feel like you're trading one extreme perspective for another. Yes, demons can be false doctrines, but they aren't only false doctrins. Ray once said that he had exercised out seven demons from a woman with the help of other church goers. The demons weren't very clever as they had simple names like, "Bok, Boook" etc... I can't find the specific audio where he goes into detail on that exercosim but he does reference it in an email below briefly.


Hi Alex,

The reason I had posted this thread is because when I’m reading about these people who are possessed by demons in the gospel and remembering 2Pe 2:4 my initial thought was had some angles that kept not their first estate somehow become free and are these the ones who were possessing these people spoken of in the four gospels.

After reading all the replies given in this thread concerning demons and my understanding being contrary to those replies about what demons are I started thinking my understanding basically come from what I heard in Christendom and from horror movies I watch years ago and not from this website and was willing to let that understanding go but now this information you given about Ray dealing with demons assures me I was right in my thinking but now my understanding has expanded including false doctrine, teachers and false prophets also.

But still I would like to know if the angles who left their first estate are still chained there then who are these others that God has not chained in darkness until judgement ?

Perhaps my thinking is limited but if the angles ( messengers of God ) the ones that did not leave their first estate are still in God’s service and the angles that kept not their first estate are still bound and the only other living entities are we human beings and this should account for all living entities then who are these who possess people ?  :-\
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2015, 12:13:52 AM »

Sure Rick, not a problem. I've quite enjoyed the thread to be honest. I think its great to discuss these things. Iron sharpens Iron.

I can't tell you what to believe. There is a ton of scripture on this and there really isn't any nailing it down one way or another. Like I said, you can't be so rigid in your thinking. Peter didn't say ALL the angels that left their fist estate are chained. You also have to consider Kat and Gina's perspective too that these angels are nothing more than human messengers. I gave you a good example in the old testatement with the cherubim that God banished from among the fiery stones. There is a huge heavenly host. Ray talks about it being devided with good cherubim one one side and the wicked cherubim on the other. There are arch angels. There are evil spirits of which examples exist in the OT of them which could include wicked cherubim or demons because "evil spirits" is very non specific.

Like I said, Jude and Peter may have been quoting a book that no longer exists. Much like the book of Jasher in the old testament which does not exist for us anymore but is cited in Samuel.

Joshua 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

2 Samuel 1:18 (Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.)

The book of Samuel the seer as well as the book of nathan the prophet.

1 Chronicles 29:29  Now the acts of David the king, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer,

2 Chronicles 9:29  Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer against Jeroboam the son of Nebat?

Visions of Iddo the Seer....

2 Chronicles 9:29  Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer against Jeroboam the son of Nebat?

This account from Jude is no where to be found in the scripture we have as well...

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

And the list goes on.

So these kinds of information we don't have now because God simply does not want us to have them for whatever reason. Some things may very well remain obscure until the resurrection or beyond but eventually all will be made clear. I think there is enough to establish some basic principles about the spiritual realm but also enough obscurity for us to have some disagreements.

Have some peace of mind my brother, none of us knows all these things, we see in part through a murky glass.

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Gina

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Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2015, 01:30:02 AM »

Lest you think I'm just picking a theological bone, there aren't many of us who have suffered the things Paul suffered in a physical sense.  But everyone who has heard and is obeying the last call of Jesus to "come out of her, my people" is experiencing to some degree this God-given, messenger of Satan, 'thorn in the flesh' in relationship with the 'transcendence/highness' of what we've been graced to 'see'.  See my 'tagline/signature' below.  We're told not to be surprised, and to rejoice.  It may get worse before it gets better.

Paul went on to 'glory in his weakness'.  Despite some folk's obsession with the negative, there is a definite up-side to weakness.  God give us the faith and wisdom to see it, because everyone is going to live it.   

Hi, Dave


"My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong."

Power is perfected in weakness.  How could we ever see Christ's power coming through a "strong" person?  Paul as the pharisee Saul was pretty sure of himself and "weaknesses and insults and persecutions and distresses" were not on his "glory wall" of achievements. 

The fact that Paul, as egotistical as he used to be, was now glad to go through all that in order to be able to spread the good news, 
And the fact that he had still had powers from his days as a pharisee, but put them to the side and did not rely on them at all to "save himself," tells me he was not lying about what and Who he saw.   He, like Christ, had a lot of power as a pharisee and he could have called all that off and chucked everything to the side.  But he was so convinced of what he saw in that third heaven state he was in, he took all the distress and weaknesses and basically said, meh~   Wow. 
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