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[Joel]

The way I see it all the things that happened to Paul were all ordered of the Lord.

Acts 9:15-16- But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Saul must have felt like a thorn in the flesh to the early members of the Church, before he was converted by the Lord himself. His main gold no doubt was to devour, and destroy anyone that were members of the body of Christ at that time. He for sure persecuted them, and buffeted them with many hurtful blows. (breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the LORD,) Acts 9:1

Joel

[Gina]

The way I see it all the things that happened to Paul were all ordered of the Lord.

Acts 9:15-16- But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great tings he must suffer for my name's sake.

Saul must have felt like a thorn in the flesh to the early members of the Church, before he was converted by the Lord himself. His main gold no doubt was to devour, and destroy anyone that were members of the body of Christ at that time. He for sure persecuted them, and buffeted them with many hurtful blows. (breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the LORD,) Acts 9:1

Joel

Good points, Joel.  I just thought of something.  (Sorry for the long post, and you can delete it if I'm out of line or whatever.  I won't object.)

I'm seriously beginning to wonder if the messenger of Satan was there reminding him of everything he had done to those innocent Christians as a carnal minded pharisee. 

I hardly think a spiritual messenger "or creature" could literally knock a physical person upside the head.  If that is the case, then it was a literal (physical) messenger of Satan.

I believe the spiritual messenger ("one who doesn't teach" per Ray) was there at every turn to harass and aggravate Paul into recalling all the evil he had done as a carnally minded pharisee.  Probably saying things like, "how undeserving you are to be chosen of God." 

I can just imagine the memories that must have come to Paul's mind without warning.  He finally gets a breather and here comes a bad memory from his past when he was operating according to the the flesh.....    ooooohhh

And here comes another one....    ooouch that hurt.


And another...... uuuuuuhhhh

And another and another and another.... nonstop!

Hey, Paul, here's a memory of Stephen being stoned and you holding the others' coats....  Oh, wait -- don't you remember the time you were harassing all those Christians and all the stupid things you used to say to them?  Ouch!

These weren't insults.  They were truthful reminders.  Satan and his messenger don't always lie, as Ray pointed out  -- "All these kingdoms I will give you...."

Messengers/Cherubims are "Cherubs or cherubims are spirit creatures of great power with wings."    It's tempting to imagine these "spiritual" cherubim with literal "wings."

They can't be literal wings on a spiritual "messenger."   Literal "blows" to the literal head coming from a spiritual WING?!
If spiritual creatures can't be burned up with literal fire, then how can a spiritual wing LITERALLY, and P-H-Y-S-I-C-A-L-L-Y PUNCH someone in their PHYSICAL HEAD?

And how does a physical punch in the head literally make you not conceited. 

Ray said:

A splinter seems rather mild compared to the miseries that define buffet. That’s because Paul is not speaking of intensity when he speaks of a "splinter," but rather the incessantness of a splinter. The pain and aggravation is constant.

Neither is Paul speaking of something physical.  Not that he didn't experience physical hardships.

I'm sure that the pain of the reminder of those embarrassing memories of his days in the flesh/carnally minded, must have felt like blows to him mentally and emotionally.  I mean, when you think about some of the stupid stuff we've done... It's like, Oh Lord -- do I really have to go there?  Do I.  It's so embarrassing to think about.  But the memories pop up out of nowhere and without warning....   
 

Ray said:

Another telling word is found in Paul’s entreaty: "For this I entreat the Lord thrice, that it should withdraw from me.

The Greek word translated "withdraw" is aphistemi = FROM-STAND. Only a creature of intelligence and mobility can possibly "withdraw" from someone.

Withdrawal is used fifteen times in the Greek Scriptures, and always refers to people or creatures of mobility.  "Withdrawal" is never used in connection with inanimate objects.  Objects are normally "removed" or "taken away." They do not "withdraw." When Paul asked God to have "it" withdraw from him, the "it" was not an "object or thing,", but  "a creature."

Messengers of Satan are "creatures."  Creatures are not shipwrecks and vigils and cold and imprisonments -- those are all "things."

I imagine he had to learn through all of that he was "buffeted" with to believe that he was forgiven and that Jesus Christ really and truly loved him and had mercy on him and belonged to Christ.

We walk by faith, not sight.   

Everything Paul experienced would have made most of us fold because we walk by sight.  We would have caved in and said, there's no way God loves me because look at how much I'm suffering physically.  It must be because of all the things I did in my past.  But not Paul.  He said:  I am convinced (have no doubt) that neither life, nor thing impending, nor ......   can separate you from Christ's love.
 
The constant reminders of those days in his flesh must have been a real pain and aggravation and I believe that those reminders came to him by way of the "splinter."

The splinter was not in his literal flesh, but reminding him of his former conceit.  That's how he got to be such "good" pharisee in the first place.  You don't drive out conceit by literal cold weather.

Besides, Paul laid out all of the things he suffered physically and tangibly during his ministry, so wouldn't a splinter in his literal flesh be redundant?

weariness
jails
blows
deaths
thirty-nine lashes
flogged with rods
stoned
shipwrecked
day & night in swamp
journeys
dangers of rivers
dangers of robbers
dangers of my race
dangers of the nations
dangers in the city
dangers in wilderness
dangers in the sea
dangers/false brethren
toil and labor
vigils
famine and thirst
fasts
cold and nakedness


7 So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited ....

So why would this messenger have to harass and aggravate him physically some more?  It just seems so redundant. 

He had to learn total dependence on God now in every way, shape and form:   mentally, physically, emotionally.   That's what he was always saying.  So he had to learn it himself and keep practicing at it.  He couldn't depend on himself or his former or current "status" any longer, the way some of us rest on our laurels. 

He couldn't say, Look, guys, the reason I was given this revelation is because of something great that I have done to deserve this. That's a blow to the ego as a former pharisee.  There goes your conceit - right out the window...............

Shipwrecks and imprisonments obviously couldn't get rid of the conceit that was ready and waiting to well up inside of him. 

Only a "messenger of Satan," some creature to constantly nag and aggravate the living daylights out of him about something he had previously done in his carnal minded, fleshly days as a former pharisee could do that.  How did the messenger actually go about doing that?  That's the question.


Sorry this was so long!  And if you got this far and don't want to clobber me...  thanks.   I pray to God that I didn't confuse anyone.

As Indianabob says... kindly offered....

[santgem]

Was it better for Judas had he not been born?

Why did Judas betray Jesus?  For the silver, for the money?  Jesus tells why Judas betrayed Him yet many think it was because Judas was such an incredible sinner--one of the worst humans ever born?  Is that true? Here is why Judas betrayed Jesus: 

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy Name: those that You gave Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled" (John 17:12). 

Yes, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.  Judas had to do what he did because the Scripture had to be fulfilled.  Did Judas desire in his heart to betray Jesus?  Did he personally look forward to this deed and the money he would get?  I don't think so!   Isaiah 53:10 tells us that "It pleased God to bruise Him [His Son]."  So in this verse God takes responsibility for the "bruising" [crucifixion] of His Son. So how could Judas be held eternally guilty for this crime?

Let me assure you, that Judas all on his own, even with his carnal mind, did not possess the required evil necessary to betray His LORD with a kiss.  How so?

"Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them" (Luke 22:3-4).

This is the only time in the history of the world that we have an account of Satan actually entering into and possessing the mind of another human being.  How pray tell without the power of God is it possible to resist the power of Satan? If Judas could have pulled this whole thing off by his own power and devices, it would not have been necessary for Satan to possess his mind.  When Satan left Judas, Judas REPENTED. Why did he repent?  Do we have any clues?

This is not a mystery, his conscious was killing him!  He recognized his horrible sin, and confessed it:  "I have sinned in that I have betrayed innocent blood."  He confessed that Jesus was innocent and he was guilty, and he tried to make partial amends by returning the thirty pieces of silver.  And lastly, but most importantly, he LAID DOWN HIS LIFE for the Friend that he betrayed.  Jesus was Judas' Friend.  Judas didn't repent just because he was a sinning man. He repented because he shed the blood of his innocent Master.  Judas was very specific in his repentance.  Judas laid down his life for his friend Jesus in the only way he knew how under the distressing, mind--boggling circumstances in which he saw himself--HE HANGED HIMSELF!

How many of us have the guts to hang ourselves for the sins that we have committed?

If Judas did not have feelings of love toward Jesus Whom he publically acknowledged was an innocent Man, he would not have felt guilty, he would not have returned the silver, and he would not have killed himself.  He would have gone out and spent the money.  Now then, who are we to question or doubt the sincerity of his heart-felt repentance?

Does your conscience slay you for the wrongs you have committed?  Have you confessed these sins before God and man?  Have you acknowledged the shedding of Christ's innocent blood for your sins?  Have you done all in your power to make amends for all the wrongs and sins that you have committed?

Have you laid down your life as a living sacrifice to God?    Well if you have done all these, then you may have at least attained to the same level of spirituality as Judas. "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." (Jas. 4:7).  Since Judas did not submit to God, Satan the Devil took him.  When Satan departed, Judas inspired to do the right thing. Who is to say that Judas didn't do the right thing under such a bizarre drama as this?





"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy Name: those that You gave Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled" (John 17:12).


"Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them" (Luke 22:3-4).


This is the only time in the history of the world [/u] that we have an account of Satan actually entering into and possessing the mind of another human being[/b].

[Gina]

Was it better for Judas had he not been born?

Why did Judas betray Jesus?  For the silver, for the money?  Jesus tells why Judas betrayed Him yet many think it was because Judas was such an incredible sinner--one of the worst humans ever born?  Is that true? Here is why Judas betrayed Jesus: 

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy Name: those that You gave Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled" (John 17:12). 

Yes, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.  Judas had to do what he did because the Scripture had to be fulfilled.  Did Judas desire in his heart to betray Jesus?  Did he personally look forward to this deed and the money he would get?  I don't think so!   Isaiah 53:10 tells us that "It pleased God to bruise Him [His Son]."  So in this verse God takes responsibility for the "bruising" [crucifixion] of His Son. So how could Judas be held eternally guilty for this crime?

Let me assure you, that Judas all on his own, even with his carnal mind, did not possess the required evil necessary to betray His LORD with a kiss.  How so?

"Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them" (Luke 22:3-4).

This is the only time in the history of the world that we have an account of Satan actually entering into and possessing the mind of another human being.  How pray tell without the power of God is it possible to resist the power of Satan? If Judas could have pulled this whole thing off by his own power and devices, it would not have been necessary for Satan to possess his mind.  When Satan left Judas, Judas REPENTED. Why did he repent?  Do we have any clues?

This is not a mystery, his conscious was killing him!  He recognized his horrible sin, and confessed it:  "I have sinned in that I have betrayed innocent blood."  He confessed that Jesus was innocent and he was guilty, and he tried to make partial amends by returning the thirty pieces of silver.  And lastly, but most importantly, he LAID DOWN HIS LIFE for the Friend that he betrayed.  Jesus was Judas' Friend.  Judas didn't repent just because he was a sinning man. He repented because he shed the blood of his innocent Master.  Judas was very specific in his repentance.  Judas laid down his life for his friend Jesus in the only way he knew how under the distressing, mind--boggling circumstances in which he saw himself--HE HANGED HIMSELF!

How many of us have the guts to hang ourselves for the sins that we have committed?

If Judas did not have feelings of love toward Jesus Whom he publically acknowledged was an innocent Man, he would not have felt guilty, he would not have returned the silver, and he would not have killed himself.  He would have gone out and spent the money.  Now then, who are we to question or doubt the sincerity of his heart-felt repentance?

Does your conscience slay you for the wrongs you have committed?  Have you confessed these sins before God and man?  Have you acknowledged the shedding of Christ's innocent blood for your sins?  Have you done all in your power to make amends for all the wrongs and sins that you have committed?

Have you laid down your life as a living sacrifice to God?    Well if you have done all these, then you may have at least attained to the same level of spirituality as Judas. "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." (Jas. 4:7).  Since Judas did not submit to God, Satan the Devil took him.  When Satan departed, Judas inspired to do the right thing. Who is to say that Judas didn't do the right thing under such a bizarre drama as this?





"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy Name: those that You gave Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled" (John 17:12).


"Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them" (Luke 22:3-4).


This is the only time in the history of the world [/u] that we have an account of Satan actually entering into and possessing the mind of another human being[/b].


SOURCE:  http://bible-truths.com/JudasNotBorn.htm

Dear Santgem,

Ray made some very valid points and gave us lots to meditate on here.  I just wanted to offer a friendly reminder:

69 "We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God."

70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"

71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.


How many of us have betrayed an innocent friend to condemnation and beatings so that they become totally unrecognizable?  I haven't done that but I am aware that others have. 

And do we have to literally hang ourselves?  Is that the gospel of the Lord?  Is that a requirement? 

Because Paul said that Jesus came to save sinners of whom he was chief to forgive sins and to undo the works of the devil.  Hanging yourself over past sins is itself a work of the devil.   

It's one of the most cowardly, selfish acts and the other apostles said in acts he got just what he had coming to him. 

The apostles certainly didn't believe that he had "laid down his life" for a friend. 

He was too much of a spiritual coward being so carnally minded at that point to be able to suffer in his flesh ("he who has suffered in his flesh is done with sin"), and to believe that Christ could ever forgive him, so he killed himself to make himself feel better and THAT was the reason he did it.  He couldn't live with himself for the thing he did.     Which was probably one of those evils that had to be because he was obviously still a devil.  Too carnal, too blind to recognize that Satan had possessed him to do it.

And so he, just like those demon possessed pigs, ran himself headlong over a cliff. 

If that is not the case, then why, if he was so repentant and spiritually "mature," don't we hear accounts of him begging the chief priests to not hang Jesus?  Because -- Judas was a coward and he had to kill himself so that this scripture could be fulfilled:

18  Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his sin (he didn't buy it himself, he "acquired it" after the priests and Pharisees bought it.  It was the "blood money" Judas was rewarded.  Judas threw the silver coins down in the temple to return them to the priests and Pharisees; but they wouldn't keep any of it for themselves.  They took it and bought the Field of Blood with Judas' "reward" money and gave the field to him, and that's how Judas acquired that field), and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out.

19 And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.

20 "For it is written in the book of Psalms, 'LET HIS HOMESTEAD BE MADE DESOLATE [ deserted of people and in a state of bleak and dismal emptiness  ], AND LET NO ONE DWELL IN IT'; and, 'LET ANOTHER MAN TAKE HIS OFFICE.'

I think he did look forward to the money he was going to get, but I don't think he ever really thought about what Jesus would go through, and I do believe he felt very sorry, but not sorry enough to do the RIGHT THING (believe Jesus loved him and not betray Jesus), for which Judas would need the power of God to do.  Just because he didn't have the power to do the right thing even when he killed himself, doesn't mean that Judas did the RIGHT or a GOOD thing.  These things he did to Jesus and himself were wrong and sinful and wicked.   It was as wrong of him to kill himself, as it was of him to betray his innocent friend.  But it was prophesied he would, and that's the way it had to go.  Boy, won't he be glad when he realizes how much God truly forgave him. 

Or maybe I should say, won't he love much when he realizes how much he is forgiven?   

Jesus said:  "... whoever has been forgiven little loves little."  Well, Judas has been forgiven A LOT!

Thank you for your sobering post, Santgem.