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Did some demons escape the pit ?

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Gina:

--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on June 07, 2015, 10:00:13 PM ---Hi Rick,

I think there is a lot in the answers provided here. I will only add that I believe the messengers that Peter and Jude refer to are not the same as the ministers of satan now who are transformed into ministers of righteousness. I think the ones peter is referencing are of a certain different kind, being spiritual in nature, even similar to the evil spirits God sent out in the old testament or worse. Either way, they are chained up, and I believe that includes to this day.

Wherever Peter and Jude got their inspiration from to say those things, besides being from God, we cannot know now. If there was a book inspired of God before which was written, even the book where the arch angel Micheal rebuked satan over the disputation of moses body, these are now lost. All as God planned though.

God bless,
Alex

--- End quote ---

I respectfully disagree with you, Alex.

It was the shepherds of Israel spoken of through the OT and who Jesus berated who didn't care about the sheep.  They just used them and took advantage of them and led them astray.  They left their FIRST (most important) estate and did as they pleased.



Ezek. 34

2 "Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel. Prophesy and say to those shepherds, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Woe, shepherds of Israel who have been feeding themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flock?

3 "You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with the wool, you slaughter the fat sheep without feeding the flock.

4 "Those who are sickly you have not strengthened, the diseased you have not healed, the broken you have not bound up, the scattered you have not brought back, nor have you sought for the lost; but with force and with severity you have dominated them.…
...

Matt 24

45 “A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them.

46 If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward.

47 I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns.

48 But what if the servant is evil and thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’

49 and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk?

50  The master will return unannounced and unexpected,

51 and he will cut the servant to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Matt. 23

14"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation

Matt. 25

14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants (ministers) and entrusted to them his property (His Word?).

15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.

...

24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,

25  so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’

26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?

27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.

28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.  (Jeremiah 23)

29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’



Matthew 3:7

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?



The Final Judgment

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,

43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 

44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’

45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’

46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Matt 21

45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them.

Ian 155:

--- Quote from: Rick on June 07, 2015, 03:52:05 PM ---
2Pe 2:4  God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell, where they are kept chained in darkness, waiting for the Day of Judgment.

Jud 1:6  Remember the angels who did not stay within the limits of their proper authority, but abandoned their own dwelling place: they are bound with eternal chains in the darkness below, where God is keeping them for that great Day on which they will be condemned.


What I’m trying to figure out is if these angles that kept not their first estate are still bound in chains of darkness or did they manage to escape ?

If they did not escape then are there other angles that did likewise at a later period and God did not condemn those to the pit until judgement ?

Luk 8:27  As Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a man from the town who had demons in him. For a long time this man had gone without clothes and would not stay at home, but spent

Mar 5:12  So the spirits begged Jesus, "Send us to the pigs, and let us go into them."
 
Where did these demons come from who were possessing these people during Christ ministry if these are not the angles who left there first estate and are they still on the loose ?


Job 1:7  The LORD asked him, "What have you been doing?" Satan answered, "I have been walking here and there, roaming around the earth."

1Pe 5:8  Be alert, be on watch! Your enemy, the Devil, roams around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.

So I see Satan is loose roaming around the earth seeking who he might devour but what about these others ?  :-\

--- End quote ---


the only angles are 30* ,45* 60* and of course.... obtuse angles :) :) :) :) :) :)

just kidding

lilitalienboi16:
Hi Gina,

You're welcome to disagree but doing a scripture dump on me does not prove your point. You're comparing apples to oranges here.

Where is it that all men end up?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Psalm 13:3 Consider and hear me, O Lord my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in the grave [Hades/Sheol] , behold, You are there.

Men lie down in the dust of the earth, they make their beds in the grave. The angels peter is talking about are not chained in Hell [Hades/Sheol] but rather Tartarus.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;" (CLV)

Thayer Definition:
1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus

I'm not sure I agree with Thayer's definition on it "answering ot the Gehenna of the Jews" only because I understand what Gehenna is--The lake of fire in this life.

Now there are many examples in the old testament of evil spirits. Here is a different type but one that answers to Peter's and Jude's statements.

Ezekiel 28:16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire. (RSV)

Ezekiel 28:16 Your rich commerce led you to violence, and you sinned. So I banished you in disgrace from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire. (NLT)

Ezekiel 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. (NIV)

So there are certainly instances in scripture where, while these things remain obscure, we do see some angels which did not keep their first estate but were cast out by God.

God be with you,
Alex

Kat:

2Peter 2:4  For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

When considering this verse in 2 Peter, just go back a few verses and see what Peter begins this passage by speaking of.

2Peter 2:1  But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
v. 2  And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
v. 3  By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

I think it is the word "angels" in verse 4 that throws us off (at least it has me), but Strong's does say that the word also refers to messengers and PASTORS.

If you think about what Peter is saying there, those angels/pastors were cast down to hell/tartaroo, which means hades or the grave. Here's a expert from Ray's LOF 16. D5.

The Greek word "hades," means "imperceptible or unseen," however, to the Greeks this word also represented both the god Hades and the domain of Hades, which was the state of the dead, and underworld. Originally this word did not mean a place of pain and torture. That bit of paganism was borrowed from the Egyptian underworld of Amenti with its lowest realm being Tartaroo where it was taught that there was pain and suffering. http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm

And Peter goes on to explain that these Pastors back in the time of Noah certainly died and went to the grave, as only Noah and his family (8 people) were saved from the flood.

2Peter 2:5  and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;

So the grave does reserve/hold a person, you could say in "chains of darkness," the grave certainly is dark, until resurrection and judgment day at Christ's return.

And I think this is much the same that is spoken about in Jude 1. I am thinking Gina is right about about these pastors left their "first" or most important responsibility of serving/shepherding the people or else there would have been more on the ark than just Noah's family, but that was not meant to be. Looking further down in the chapter where Peter mention "angels" again, consider what he is saying there (I'm putting my opinion in parentheses there).

2Pe 2:9  then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,
v. 10  and especially those (unjust) who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They (unjust) are presumptuous, self-willed. They (unjust) are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries,
v. 11  whereas angels (pastors), who are greater in power and might (having positions of authority), do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.

I guess this is saying those pastors did nothing in the face of all the wickedness around them, or even took part in it, because they were among those washed away in the flood too. And Peter continues on and on about what he started out speaking on "false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you," I think he made his point very clear, there have always been false teachers/pastors/shepherds. He speaks of back in Noah's day, so from the beginning of recorded Scripture, this age is filled up with darkness.

John 3:19  And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Anyway just gave my opinions on this for consideration.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

lilitalienboi16:

--- Quote from: Kat on June 08, 2015, 08:59:44 AM ---
2Peter 2:4  For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

When considering this verse in 2 Peter, just go back a few verses and see what Peter begins this passage by speaking of.

2Peter 2:1  But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
v. 2  And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
v. 3  By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

I think it is the word "angels" in verse 4 that throws us off (at least it has me), but Strong's does say that the word also refers to messengers and PASTORS.

If you think about what Peter is saying there, those angels/pastors were cast down to hell/tartaroo, which means hades or the grave. Here's a expert from Ray's LOF 16. D5.

The Greek word "hades," means "imperceptible or unseen," however, to the Greeks this word also represented both the god Hades and the domain of Hades, which was the state of the dead, and underworld. Originally this word did not mean a place of pain and torture. That bit of paganism was borrowed from the Egyptian underworld of Amenti with its lowest realm being Tartaroo where it was taught that there was pain and suffering. http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm

And Peter goes on to explain that these Pastors back in the time of Noah certainly died and went to the grave, as only Noah and his family (8 people) were saved from the flood.

2Peter 2:5  and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;

So the grave does reserve/hold a person, you could say in "chains of darkness," the grave certainly is dark, until resurrection and judgment day at Christ's return.

And I think this is much the same that is spoken about in Jude 1. I am thinking Gina is right about about these pastors left their "first" or most important responsibility of serving/shepherding the people or else there would have been more on the ark than just Noah's family, but that was not meant to be. Looking further down in the chapter where Peter mention "angels" again, consider what he is saying there (I'm putting my opinion in parentheses there).

2Pe 2:9  then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,
v. 10  and especially those (unjust) who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They (unjust) are presumptuous, self-willed. They (unjust) are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries,
v. 11  whereas angels (pastors), who are greater in power and might (having positions of authority), do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.

I guess this is saying those pastors did nothing in the face of all the wickedness around them, or even took part in it, because they were among those washed away in the flood too. And Peter continues on and on about what he started out speaking on "false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you," I think he made his point very clear, there have always been false teachers/pastors/shepherds. He speaks of back in Noah's day, so from the beginning of recorded Scripture, this age is filled up with darkness.

John 3:19  And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Anyway just gave my opinions on this for consideration.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

--- End quote ---

Hi Kat,

Thanks for your comment. I will add some more food for thought to this discussion. The first I mentioned above. These angels are not in the same place that human's who perish go. They are chained in darkness. They don't sleep in darkness. They are not dead. They are chained in darkness. Peter's words were inspired to not use the grave or sleep/dead for a reason.

You are right to bring up the first verse which helps establish some context but I think we should also pay attention to how peter starts that fourth verse.

2Pe 2:1  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2  And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3  And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
2Pe 2:4  For [BECAUSE] if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Pe 2:5  And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Peter is giving us an example. He is comparing the false prophets of verse 1 to the angels who did not keep their estate of verse 4 but he is not saying those angels are the false prophets. They are similar in that both are in darkness and both have an impending judgement that looms heavy over them.

Here is the word angels again in this context:

2Pe 2:11  Whereas angels, which are greater [than carnal men v10] in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

Compare that with:

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Is Michael the Archangel a human messanger....? Seems Peter 2:11 and Jude 1:9 are speaking along similar lines but definitely not about human messangers here.

Certainly my own opinions as well :)

God bless,
Alex

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