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[Gina]

"You gave Me no kiss; but she, since the time I came in, has not ceased to kiss My feet. "You did not anoint My head with oil, but she anointed My feet with perfume. Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven--as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little."

Hi All

I hope all is well with everybody today.  I wanted to share this verse because I've been meditating on it a lot over the past few years. 

I think to myself, you know, it's really only because the Pharisee was blind to how much he had to be forgiven for that he loved so little.  Even the apostle Paul loved very much and with a purer love too because he could see how much he had done and therefore how much he had been forgiven. 

People might say all sins are the same since all sin ends in death  and therefore all will love equally in the end.  But I don't know if that's really true, because Paul said he was chief among sinners - the worst sinner to have ever been born. 

Jesus said certain individuals would receive the greater condemnation for certain sins implying their sins are greater, but that doesn't mean that they will not love in the end.   

And so I've wondered -- doesn't that mean that their love for God and His ways, when all is said and done, be exponentially greater when they see how much they have been forgiven?   And I wonder who might be in that class of people who love much.  I think it's kinda neat to think about these things.

[Dave in Tenn]

Let me tack this on:

Mat_6:15  But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Mar_11:26  But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Seeing that those who have not forgiven are not forgiven...that is, those who HAVE FORGIVEN, ARE FORGIVEN...it completes the circle.  Who loves much?  The one forgiven much.  Who is forgiven much?  The one who forgives much.  Who loves little?  The one forgiven little.  Who is forgiven little?  The one who forgives little.

Does 'forgiveness' equal 'love' then?  Or are they different but dependent on one another? 

Seems to me that its best to get on with this 'forgiving' thing.  I don't know how we all 'end up'.  I suspect by the time God is All in ALL, we "all" will have forgiven everything.  But I believe in resurrection into the coming age we will not all be 'equal'.   

     

[Gina]

Let me tack this on:

Mat_6:15  But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Mar_11:26  But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Seeing that those who have not forgiven are not forgiven...that is, those who HAVE FORGIVEN, ARE FORGIVEN...it completes the circle.  Who loves much?  The one forgiven much.  Who is forgiven much?  The one who forgives much.  Who loves little?  The one forgiven little.  Who is forgiven little?  The one who forgives little.

Does 'forgiveness' equal 'love' then?  Or are they different but dependent on one another? 

Seems to me that its best to get on with this 'forgiving' thing.  I don't know how we all 'end up'.  I suspect by the time God is All in ALL, we "all" will have forgiven everything.  But I believe in resurrection into the coming age we will not all be 'equal'.   

   

I see what you're saying.  No, I don't believe forgiveness equals love.  Not to say that it is not a loving thing to do.  It's just that she wasn't kissing the pharisee's feet.  It was Jesus she loved much.  Forgiveness is only a step in the right direction.  Forgiveness alone doesn't get the sin out of the sinner. 

Sinners are forgiven first by God.  Then, if they repent, they are cleansed.  Her great love is a sign that she had repented of her many sins as great as they were.  She recognized her own sins were sin and were great by the light of her Savior's great love.  Jesus wasn't commending the woman for loving / forgiving the Pharisees.  Which isn't to say that she had not forgiven him.  But I imagine if she had a great love and respect for this Pharisee above that of her Lord and Savior she wouldn't have marched into that man's house and kissed Jesus' feet in front of that man.

[Gina]

42 When they could not pay, he cancelled the debt of both. Now which of them will love him more?”
43 Simon answered, “The one, I suppose, for whom he cancelled the larger debt.”

I see it like this:  He was saying that because the woman recognized how great her sin was that she could love Him (not others, not this Pharisee) more because she could see for herself that her sin (against God alone have we sinned)) was greater than this Pharisee's. 

I believe if anything is a sign of love for God and our Lord and Savior, it would be repentance of sins, not forgiveness.  After all, thieves and robbers love (forgive) thieves and robbers.  Repentance of sins is a greater sign of love for God than forgiveness of other sinners, because it leads to God's good works (kissing [symbolically] the feet of your Lord and Savior-over and over and weeping over past sins and feeling great joy over having been set free to do right -- even in the presence of those who would condemn you for loving Jesus so much).   

I guess I'm just really thinking of the future of those men and women who are similar to this woman, who will one day recognize how much they have sinned and how much they have been forgiven and when I think of how much they will love the Lord and His ways and in turn HIS PEOPLE, it just gives me the warm and fuzzies.

I have been watching testimonies of ex-gays and ex-porn stars, and man do they love God.  Unlike this Pharisee, I am thrilled beyond measure to see them loving God so much (by repenting of their sin and trusting Him with their lives in the face of so much hostility). 

I probably didn't say that right, but I bet some can see where I'm coming from. 

[Gina]

I suppose we can get on with the forgiving thing when God gives us the ability to.  Carnally minded people don't have that ability.

Jesus said, When they couldn't pay the debt, He frankly forgave them both, implying that they could see they had a debt to pay.  The way it comes across to me is either the pharisee could not see he had a debt to pay, or maybe he thought his debt wasn't as great.  Maybe his debt wasn't as great.  Jesus basically said, The reason you don't love me like this woman here does is because her sins are greater and she can see that for herself, as well as you can see her sin.  But the difference between the pharisee and her was, she agreed with God about herself.  She wasn't so preoccupied with the pharisee's sin that she forgot her own sin.  (Personally, I think her sins were greater than the pharisees seeing how she owed God the larger debt.)

I'm just wondering if in the end the pharisees will love Him even more than this woman seeing how the pharisee would have had time to rack up more debt.  Which would be very, very cool. His love for the Lord, I mean.  I could go for that.  You know, because where's the harm in that?  When you love the Lord, after you see He is so kind to you, all you want to do is be at His feet and serving Him out of a pure heart.  And I just think, wouldn't that be great when the pharisee is humbled and loves God that way -- when he/she too is very sorry and repentant and become like the little child (unpretentious, as Ray says)?  Anyway, that's all.  I just think it's a good thing to think on.

[Ian 155]

   
[/quote]

  No, I don't believe forgiveness equals love.  Not to say that it is not a loving thing to do. 

[/quote]



forgiveness is one of the attributes...there is a bit more involved though,


1Co 13:4 Love is patient, is kind. Love is not jealous. Love is not bragging, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 is not indecent, is not self-seeking, is not incensed, is not taking account of evil,
1Co 13:6 is not rejoicing in injustice, yet is rejoicing together with the truth,
1Co 13:7 is forgoing all, is believing all, is expecting all, is enduring all."
1Co 13:8 Love is never lapsing: yet, whether prophecies, they will be discarded, or languages, they will cease, or knowledge, it will be discarded."

[Kat]

42 When they could not pay, he cancelled the debt of both. Now which of them will love him more?”
43 Simon answered, “The one, I suppose, for whom he cancelled the larger debt.”

I see it like this:  He was saying that because the woman recognized how great her sin was that she could love Him (not others, not this Pharisee) more because she could see for herself that her sin (against God alone have we sinned)) was greater than this Pharisee's. 

I believe if anything is a sign of love for God and our Lord and Savior, it would be repentance of sins, not forgiveness.  After all, thieves and robbers love (forgive) thieves and robbers.  Repentance of sins is a greater sign of love for God than forgiveness of other sinners, because it leads to God's good works (kissing [symbolically] the feet of your Lord and Savior-over and over and weeping over past sins and feeling great joy over having been set free to do right -- even in the presence of those who would condemn you for loving Jesus so much).   

I guess I'm just really thinking of the future of those men and women who are similar to this woman, who will one day recognize how much they have sinned and how much they have been forgiven and when I think of how much they will love the Lord and His ways and in turn HIS PEOPLE, it just gives me the warm and fuzzies.

I have been watching testimonies of ex-gays and ex-porn stars, and man do they love God.  Unlike this Pharisee, I am thrilled beyond measure to see them loving God so much (by repenting of their sin and trusting Him with their lives in the face of so much hostility). 

I probably didn't say that right, but I bet some can see where I'm coming from.

Hi Gina, I've wondered about this too. When you think that there are some who have indeed been extreme vessels of dishonor, such as; Kim Il Sung, Hitler, Nero, Attila the Hun, Vlad the Impaler, etc, there were so many... what could possibly set such a diabolical life right? Now when these finally have their eyes open to the truth, repent and understand just how evil a life they lived in this age. I mean when they realize there is no free will and God is sovereign, He is the ultimate cause for who they/we are, clay in the Potter's hands, how can they bear who they were?

Will it be, as you were saying, that the forgiveness/mercy for them will be so great and they will comprehend the greatness of it, so that their love for God will be in proportion to the amount of forgiveness/mercy He shows them? Thus they can understand/accept the wretched evil lives that they lived as a necessary part of the plan for this age, repent and actually desire salvation and cleansing? Will this abundance of grace that justifies such people give them a greater sense of appreciation and love towards God? Maybe that degree of love from and towards God and the joy it entails is enough recompense...

Rom 5:20  Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Gina]

42 When they could not pay, he cancelled the debt of both. Now which of them will love him more?”
43 Simon answered, “The one, I suppose, for whom he cancelled the larger debt.”

I see it like this:  He was saying that because the woman recognized how great her sin was that she could love Him (not others, not this Pharisee) more because she could see for herself that her sin (against God alone have we sinned)) was greater than this Pharisee's. 

I believe if anything is a sign of love for God and our Lord and Savior, it would be repentance of sins, not forgiveness.  After all, thieves and robbers love (forgive) thieves and robbers.  Repentance of sins is a greater sign of love for God than forgiveness of other sinners, because it leads to God's good works (kissing [symbolically] the feet of your Lord and Savior-over and over and weeping over past sins and feeling great joy over having been set free to do right -- even in the presence of those who would condemn you for loving Jesus so much).   

I guess I'm just really thinking of the future of those men and women who are similar to this woman, who will one day recognize how much they have sinned and how much they have been forgiven and when I think of how much they will love the Lord and His ways and in turn HIS PEOPLE, it just gives me the warm and fuzzies.

I have been watching testimonies of ex-gays and ex-porn stars, and man do they love God.  Unlike this Pharisee, I am thrilled beyond measure to see them loving God so much (by repenting of their sin and trusting Him with their lives in the face of so much hostility). 

I probably didn't say that right, but I bet some can see where I'm coming from.

Hi Gina, I've wondered about this too. When you think that there are some who have indeed been extreme vessels of dishonor, such as; Kim Il Sung, Hitler, Nero, Attila the Hun, Vlad the Impaler, etc, there were so many... what could possibly set such a diabolical life right? Now when these finally have their eyes open to the truth, repent and understand just how evil a life they lived in this age. I mean when they realize there is no free will and God is sovereign, He is the ultimate cause for who they/we are, clay in the Potter's hands, how can they bear who they were?

Will it be, as you were saying, that the forgiveness/mercy for them will be so great and they will comprehend the greatness of it, so that their love for God will be in proportion to the amount of forgiveness/mercy He shows them? Thus they can understand/accept the wretched evil lives that they lived as a necessary part of the plan for this age, repent and actually desire salvation and cleansing? Will this abundance of grace that justifies such people give them a greater sense of appreciation and love towards God? Maybe that degree of love from and towards God and the joy it entails is enough recompense...

Rom 5:20  Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Right!  Thank you for clearing that up.  That's perfectly said.

[rick]

Nice thread Gina, I’m surprise it hasn’t been locked yet.

[Dave in Tenn]

Mat 21:28  `And what think ye? A man had two children, and having come to the first, he said, Child, go, to-day be working in my vineyard.'
Mat 21:29  And he answering said, `I will not,' but at last, having repented, he went.
Mat 21:30  `And having come to the second, he said in the same manner, and he answering said, I go , sir, and went not;
Mat 21:31  which of the two did the will of the father?' They say to him, `The first.' Jesus saith to them, `Verily I say to you, that the tax-gatherers and the harlots do go before you into the reign of God,
Mat 21:32  for John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye did not believe him, and the tax-gatherers and the harlots did believe him, and ye, having seen, repented not at last--to believe him.

Mat 21:33  `Hear ye another simile: There was a certain man, a householder, who planted a vineyard, and did put a hedge round it, and digged in it a wine-press, and built a tower, and gave it out to husbandmen, and went abroad.
Mat 21:34  `And when the season of the fruits came nigh, he sent his servants unto the husbandmen, to receive the fruits of it,
Mat 21:35  and the husbandmen having taken his servants, one they scourged, and one they killed, and one they stoned.
Mat 21:36  `Again he sent other servants more than the first, and they did to them in the same manner.
Mat 21:37  `And at last he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son;
Mat 21:38  and the husbandmen having seen the son, said among themselves, This is the heir, come, we may kill him, and may possess his inheritance;
Mat 21:39  and having taken him, they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him;
Mat 21:40  whenever therefore the lord of the vineyard may come, what will he do to these husbandmen?'
Mat 21:41  They say to him, `Evil men--he will evilly destroy them, and the vineyard will give out to other husbandmen, who will give back to him the fruits in their seasons.'
Mat 21:42  Jesus saith to them, `Did ye never read in the Writings, A stone that the builders disallowed, it became head of a corner; from the Lord hath this come to pass, and it is wonderful in our eyes.
Mat 21:43  `Because of this I say to you, that the reign of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth its fruit;
Mat 21:44  and he who is falling on this stone shall be broken, and on whomsoever it may fall it will crush him to pieces.'
Mat 21:45  And the chief priests and the Pharisees having heard his similes, knew that of them he speaketh,
Mat 21:46  and seeking to lay hold on him, they feared the multitudes, seeing they were holding him as a prophet.

It may not be that every single 'harlot and tax-collector' will come into the reign before the first 'chief priest and pharisee' (witness Saul/Paul) but they do have the advantage, though almost nobody really believes it.  I think this is what the statement "it is better to be cold than luke-warm" means.

[Gina]

Thanks Dave.  I'm not talking about who is going to be first or last in the kingdom.  I guess I'm talking about who will end up loving the Lord the most when all is said and done.  I really believe it's going to be people that we would never suspect -- dare I say Hitler and Sadam Hussein and the like.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."   From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the father for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

(Rick, If you would be so kind as to pray that we remain humble and obedient, God just might hear that prayer, okay?)

[Ian 155]

I think I agree with Kat.. italics and underline my rationale

Those least expected in the kingdom ...

but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. (luk 7 28)

[Dave in Tenn]

Jesus didn't say who loves MOST and who loves LEAST.  He said MUCH and LITTLE.  Gina, maybe it's a meaningless point, but I don't think so. 

Will the pharisees (ancient and modern) love least because they will not have been forgiven much?  I think the contrary is correct.  What is (was) lacking in them was (is) the knowledge of just how bad their sin is.  They won't be forgiven first, but they will be forgiven much.  Ray said many times in the LOF series how bitter their repentance will be.  But in the end, He will wipe every tear from their eyes as well.  So I still maintain that Jesus is talking about 'now'...'now' for them will be later than 'now' for the harlots and tax-collectors, but even though all sin is not the same, "to whom much has been given, much will be required."

I think, in the end, we will all love as much as is possible, because that is the character of God.  I just don't think that time is in the very next age.  But I won't wrestle anybody who thinks differently. 

[Gina]

Jesus didn't say who loves MOST and who loves LEAST.  He said MUCH and LITTLE.  Gina, maybe it's a meaningless point, but I don't think so. 

Will the pharisees (ancient and modern) love least because they will not have been forgiven much?  I think the contrary is correct.  What is (was) lacking in them was (is) the knowledge of just how bad their sin is.  They won't be forgiven first, but they will be forgiven much. Ray said many times in the LOF series how bitter their repentance will be.  But in the end, He will wipe every tear from their eyes as well.  So I still maintain that Jesus is talking about 'now'...'now' for them will be later than 'now' for the harlots and tax-collectors, but even though all sin is not the same, "to whom much has been given, much will be required."

I think, in the end, we will all love as much as is possible, because that is the character of God.  I just don't think that time is in the very next age.  But I won't wrestle anybody who thinks differently.

Thanks again, Dave.  I think we're basically saying the same thing. 

But I'm not talking about what's going to happen in the very next age.  There is more than the next age after all.     

"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

I don't know how many ages there are going to be.  It could take ages upon ages for some to recognize their greatness of their sins.           

I'm not trying to put anyone down or up or anything by saying these things.  But the fact of the matter is, since there are those whose sin by comparison is very great, their forgiveness will also have to be equally great.

I'm just imagining when they see the greatness of their sin and that they have been forgiven so much MORE because of how much more they will come to realize they have been forgiven, and their love and appreciation for God will be greater (or MORE great) because they were forgiven so much...more.  This isn't to say that they themselves will be greater or favored by God more because they wind up loving God so much more.

You said MUCH and LEAST.  Okay.  But this is what the texts from different versions say about that:

New International Version
Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he forgave the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?"

New Living Translation
But neither of them could repay him, so he kindly forgave them both, canceling their debts. Who do you suppose loved him more after that?"

English Standard Version
When they could not pay, he cancelled the debt of both. Now which of them will love him more?”

New American Standard Bible
"When they were unable to repay, he graciously forgave them both. So which of them will love him more?"

King James Bible
And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Since they could not pay it back, he graciously forgave them both. So, which of them will love him more?"

International Standard Version
When they couldn't pay it back, he generously canceled the debts for both of them. Now which of them will love him more?"

NET Bible
When they could not pay, he canceled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?"

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And because they had nothing to pay he forgave both of them. Which of them therefore will love him more?”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
When they couldn't pay it back, he was kind enough to cancel their debts. Now, who do you think will love him the most?"

Jubilee Bible 2000
And when they had nothing to pay, he released them both from their debt. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?

King James 2000 Bible
And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?

American King James Version
And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?

American Standard Version
When they had not wherewith to pay, he forgave them both. Which of them therefore will love him most?

Douay-Rheims Bible
And whereas they had not wherewith to pay, he forgave them both. Which therefore of the two loveth him most?

Darby Bible Translation
but as they had nothing to pay, he forgave both of them [their debt]: [say,] which of them therefore will love him most?

English Revised Version
When they had not wherewith to pay, he forgave them both. Which of them therefore will love him most?

Webster's Bible Translation
And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?

Weymouth New Testament
But neither of them could pay anything; so he freely forgave them both. Tell me, then, which of them will love him most?"

World English Bible
When they couldn't pay, he forgave them both. Which of them therefore will love him most?"

Young's Literal Translation
and they not having wherewith to give back, he forgave both; which then of them, say thou, will love him more?'

CLV
Now, they having nothing to pay, he deals graciously with both. Which of them, then, will be loving him more?

Rotherham Emphasized they not having wherewith to pay, he forgave, both. Which of them, therefore, will love him, more?

Not having and of them to pay, both he forgive. Which then of them, say more him will love?




And vs 43 says:  and the Simon [the pharisee] said: I suppose that to whom the more he forgave. 

And Jesus' responded:   Rightly thou hast judged.

She was forgiven much more .... more because she had more debt.  And all I'm saying is there will be those who have sinned much more than her and will end up loving God much more than that woman because they will have been forgiven much more.

Again, I'm not trying to wrestle (not sure why you said that), I just think these things are good to think on because it keeps me from becoming conceited.  i don't know about anyone else, but I can totally relate to that Pharisee, and I think Jesus really exhibited the Father's love toward that Pharisee in the way He was so patient with Simon and not rude, He didn't insist on His own way, He endured the pride coming from the Pharisee regarding the sinful woman.  There's a lot you have probably seen for a long time.  I'm only now beginning to see it, so thanks for bearing with me a little.

[Gina]

... I love how the Concordant phrases this:

Luke 7:43 Now answering, Simon said, "I take it that it is he with whom he deals the more graciously.

Isn't that a beautiful way of seeing God's forgiveness of sin?

[Gina]

I think I agree with Kat.. italics and underline my rationale

Those least expected in the kingdom ...

but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. (luk 7 28)

Yes, Kat understands where I'm coming from, and I believe Dave does too. 

"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

But again, I'm not speaking of those who are called least or great in the Kingdom.  I'm speaking about those who will love God more, or most in the end.  There was a certain ruler who wanted to do something to inherit eternal life and he didn't lie when he said he kept every commandment of God, but knew he was still lacking:

Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing you lack: go your way, sell whatsoever you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

And he went away from Jesus grieving because he couldn't part with his worldly riches. 

So here is a man who will be called least in the kingdom, and yet he is called greater than John the Baptist, I guess.  But that "greatness" doesn't mean he loved God more.  He loved his earthly riches more.  And boy I think many of us can easily relate to that man. 

I really love the way the text says that Jesus looked at him and loved him and said... 

Someone asked me what love is or what it looks like.  I suppose it wouldn't have really been very loving of Jesus to say, Okay, well you're pretty close so you can come on into the kingdom and you can take your riches with you, knowing full well that the ruler would have nearly killed himself trying to squeeze through the narrow gate with all that gold in his pockets.  He might have taken out the gate or made it wider in order to get in, ya know?  And it would have no longer been very hard for rich men to enter into the kingdom of God.  Love isn't like that though, I guess.

(And yes, I know this isn't talking about a literal gate.  I know it's symbolism or metaphors or idioms-- what the heck is that? haha! I have to go look that up..... )

[Kat]

Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing you lack: go your way, sell whatsoever you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

And he went away from Jesus grieving because he couldn't part with his worldly riches. 

So here is a man who will be called least in the kingdom, and yet he is called greater than John the Baptist, I guess.  But that "greatness" doesn't mean he loved God more.  He loved his earthly riches more.  And boy I think many of us can easily relate to that man. 

I think Jesus "loved" this rich man, because he was trying to be righteous, when Jesus ask him about the commandments his answer was "Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth." So he was a 'good' Jew, but when Jesus told him what was required to follow Him, he was not able to comply... none of us can, it takes God drawing us to Christ (John 6:44).

Rom 5:10  For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Then salvation can only be given "through" Christ's AFTER His sacrifice, so that leaves John the Baptist out.

Mat 11:11  "Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

So John the Baptist cannot be in the first resurrection and enter the kingdom at Christ return, because John died before Christ was our sacrifice, therefore "he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." At least that's the way I look at what Christ was saying about John, considering He had just said "among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Gina]

Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing you lack: go your way, sell whatsoever you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

And he went away from Jesus grieving because he couldn't part with his worldly riches. 

So here is a man who will be called least in the kingdom, and yet he is called greater than John the Baptist, I guess.  But that "greatness" doesn't mean he loved God more.  He loved his earthly riches more.  And boy I think many of us can easily relate to that man. 

I think Jesus "loved" this rich man, because he was trying to be righteous, when Jesus ask him about the commandments his answer was "Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth." So he was a 'good' Jew, but when Jesus told him what was required to follow Him, he was not able to comply... none of us can, it takes God drawing us to Christ (John 6:44).

Rom 5:10  For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Then salvation can only be given "through" Christ's AFTER His sacrifice, so that leaves John the Baptist out.

Mat 11:11  "Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

So John the Baptist cannot be in the first resurrection and enter the kingdom at Christ return, because John died before Christ was our sacrifice, therefore "he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." At least that's the way I look at what Christ was saying about John, considering He had just said "among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

I thought being in the kingdom of God and being the first resurrection weren't the same things, especially, since there would be some who would be considered least. 

And I thought Jesus was saying that a person would be considered to be great or least in the Kingdom of God not based on when they lived and died relative to Jesus' death and resurrection, but based upon what they taught and how they kept Jesus' commandments.

"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

"among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist." 

I don't see where Jesus ever said John wasn't in the kingdom of heaven.  Where does it say that the people only enter the kingdom of Heaven in the future? 

52"Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge; you yourselves did not enter, and you hindered those who were entering."

20Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 21nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is [present tense] in your midst." 

I don't know, maybe I'm mistaken, but it sounds like all Jesus said was that, John, as great as he was and as far as he had risen, was not as great as someone who was considered least ... in the kingdom (or someone who "then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same.") 

I'm not sure why that they would be considered greater than John the Baptist.   This is what I thought:  I thought it might have had something to do with the fact that John doubted that Jesus was the Messiah, but I don't know really. 

Jesus said during his ministry (before he died and resurrected) that tax collectors and prostitutes were entering in the Kingdom ahead of the Pharisees.  Maybe I need to study that out more.  But I was of the belief that the Kingdom of God was with Jesus from the very start of His earthly ministry and that people were already entering into it.

Sorry, I hope that made sense.  (Mods, if this is teaching or I'm out of line here, I won't be hurt if this post is removed or my thread is locked.  I hope it won't have to come to that.  Hopefully I'm not doing any harm here.)

[Gina]

Maybe the reason the least in the Kingdom of Heaven will be considered greater than John the Baptist is because John was imprisoned and didn't get to hear all of Jesus' sermons and "the commands" of Jesus and maybe he was still reasoning in the old way under the old code or something?  I don't know.  I haven't really studied that to be honest.  It's always interested me though.  It'd be neat if God would give us wisdom to figure it out if it is His will.  We could pray for wisdom about that.

[Gina]

One more thought.  I thought Jesus said that whoever wanted to be greatest in the kingdom must be servant of all (or last):

 
25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 26"It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, 27and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." Matthew 10

42Calling them to Himself, Jesus said to them, "You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them. 43"But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant; 44and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all  Mark 10

Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, "Anyone who wants to be first  (greatest) must be the very last, and the servant of all."  Mark 9:35