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[Gina]

Howdy folks,

This is a huge subject, and more of a fact check than a study or whatever.  I just want to be sure I'm reading this right. 

How many have heard that Christ nailed our sins to the cross?   I've always assumed that meant all sin, including immorality.  Well, now it's like I've read Colossians 2:13-15 for the first time and I'm just starting to see it clearly. 

Look at what the text says:   


13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This (the record of debt, not our sins) he set aside, nailing it (the record of debt, not our sins) to the cross.


One version says it this way:

He took the charges away by nailing them (the charges, not our sins) to the cross.

And even then, the text of Colossians seem to have more to do with the Jewish legal rituals and customs as they applied to the Jews (not the Gentiles?) that they were trespassing against.  If it were their immorality that was nailed to the cross then why would Paul go on to say in Col. 3 :

5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.

7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them.

8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.

9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices


If anyone has the ability to decipher this and wants to weigh in, I really wish you would.

Thanks,
Gina

[Kat]

Hi Gina,

Col 2:14  having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

What I think Paul is speaking of here "the handwriting of requirements... He has taken it out of the way" is the old covenant. It was a "curse" as "all have sinner and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23) and thus the law condemns us all.

Rom 5:18  Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Gal 3:13  Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"—

All were/are dead in their sins under the old covenant, until Christ came and suffered and died, His sacrifice did away with the old and brought in the new. So Christ has "taken it (the old covenant) out of the way" and "nailed it to the cross," and for a few chosen "the veil is taken away."

2Cor 3:6  who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
v. 7  But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
v. 15  But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
v. 16  Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Heb 8:10  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Heb 8:13  In speaking of a new covenant, He makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Gal 5:18  But if you are led by the Spirit (new covenant), you are not under the law (old covenant).

Gal 4:1  Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all,
v. 2  but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father.
v. 3  Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world.
v. 4  But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
v. 5  to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
v. 6  And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Kat]

Here are a few emails on this subject.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5813.msg47165.html#msg47165 ---

Dear Jason:  I will make a few COMMENTS in your email.............

From: "Jason"

Dear Ray,

                    I was a bit surprised to read what you wrote on Homosexuality. I found it pretty legalistic in light of the Blood shed on the Cross.
     
    COMMENT:  Oh really?  "Legalistic" you say?  You don't like that word?  You don't like things to be "legalistic--to be LEGAL?"  You rather prefer things to be "ILLEGAL," do you?  Should you ever have the misfortune to be involved in a contract that takes advantage of you and your rights, for sure you do not want a lawyer to come to your defense and ge all "legalistic" in behalf of your "legal" rights, now do you?  Is "legalistic" a dirty word to you?  Should we ban it from our vocabulary and dictionaries?  As New Testament Believers, we are to OBEY the laws and commandments of God Almighty:  Acts 24:14; Rom. 2:13; Roml. 7:22-25;  Rom 8:7--: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God [the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, but the converted mind is], neither indeed can be."  Rom 13:10--" Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW."  I guess you wouldn't want to get all "legalistic" and get found "fulfilling the law" by loving your neighbors  1Ti 1:8--" But we know that the law is good, if a man use it LAWFULLY [Gk: 'legitimately, LEGALLY]."
     
    Rom 2:12--"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law."  If you don't fit into either of these two categories, are you maybe aware of a third category that Paul and the Holy Spirit knew nothing about?
     
    Remember how the blood of a goat releaved sin for a year. Jesus does it for much longer than that I would assume. His presents us blameless thru his work on the cross. It said he took the Sin of the world. Notice that it didn't say the Sins but Sin.
     
    COMMENT:  Oh really?  So there is no "repentance" involved?  What did God have to say about those who would sin "presumptuously" after knowing what the "legalistic" LAW had to say on a matter? Deu 17:12--"And the man that will do PRESUMPTUOUSLY, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God [ministering a sin offering on your behalf] , or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel. "  Such a person was assuredly NOT "releaved from sin for a year."  And neither is anyone under the New Covenant releaved for a year or longer, who sins presumptuously--willingly, willfully:  Heb 10:27-29-- "But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. &a mp;n bsp;He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"
     
    Do you think that sounds like one can thumb his nose at God's laws and yet receive Christ's salvation without going through very severe judgment?
     
                   I find it sad that in America laws have to be made to protect people from others(usually so called Christians) from harming them. When Jesus preached the law he was yet alive. When someone knew or figured out who he was he began to get skeptical of them or push them away for if all were not lost but able to achieve perfection thru the law then Jesus died for nothing. If the word was made flesh,the law was nailed to the cross.
     
    COMMENT:  Oh really?  "The LAW was nailed to the cross," was it?  And do you have chapter and verse on that bit of unscriptural nonsense  Col 2:14 "Blotting out THE HANDWRITING OF ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross."  God never nailed His "LAW" to the cross.  The Covenant Law which IS THE TEN COMMANDMENTS was not a "handwriting of ordinances," but was rather chiseled IN STONE, and was placed IN the ark of the Covenant, not on the OUTSIDE of the ark as were the ordinances.  You have not a clue as to what you are talking about.
     
                  The law was nailed to the cross and part of works is believing. The law was not of faith. That tells me it (the law)even moves the people away from God creating unbelief. The law stirs up the passions of the flesh ! Remember that one ?
     
    COMMENT:  Oh really?  The law "stirs up the passions of the flesh" to sin, does it?  If you are going to allude to Scripture, do it properly:  Rom 7:7--" What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.  But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.  For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.  And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.  For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. "
     
    So is it "THE LAW" that stirs up the passions of our flesh" to sin?  Is that what Paul said? Is that what the Scriptures teach?  No.  Is therefore the law sin?  NO.  Well, what was it then that "stirred up the passions of Paul's flesh" when he had not repented of breaking God's law?  Let's read it:  "But S-I-N [not the law], taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence."  SIN did that, not the law. The law merely pointed out just how bad Paul lusted without the Spirit of God in him (Rom. 8:9).
     
    There is alot that you say that I agree with but this one...I don't know what else to say except you sound like one of those people who want to make sure that the ministry of death is posted everywhere for people to remember everyday condemnation under the law !
     
    COMMENT:  "Ministry of death?"  I don't reckon you have a clue as to what the Scriptures mean when they say, "I DIE DAILY" (I Cor. 15:31), do you?
     
                  Those who wrote you so much got you to write a very legalistic page i say because you protected yourself at the end of it and they will look at that as abandonment and if you think about it ? You know God hardens who he wishes and softens who he wishes or you wouldn't have mentioned at the end of the page that God would have to change them. I tell you if they praise God or take drugs or have male and male sex or whatever, remember their penalty was paid by our savior for some of us(NO) ALL of us !
     
    COMMENT:  Are you so foolish to think that anyone will every be saved without first being JUDGED?
    Judgment is NOW upon the House of God (I Pet. 4:17).  EVERY MAN'S WORK SHALL BE JUDGED, either now (I Cor. 3:13-15) or later (Rev. 20:13-15).  Neither now (I Cor. 11:31) or later (I Cor. 11:32).
    All unrepented of homosexual acts will be severely judged, and they will be judged by THAT MAN, Whom you think you can flaunt your sins at and not suffer the consequences:  Heb 10:26-7--" For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."
     
    Love ya bro,Jason
    P.S. You would do good to preach the good news and watch the legalism that was carried out on our savior 2000 yrs. ago !
     
    COMMENT:  Act 17:31 "Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by THAT MAN Whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead." There's a lot of"LEGALISM" going on in those words "JUDGE," Jason!
    May God be merciful to you, Jason,
    Ray


http://bible-truths.com/email8.htm#holy ------------------------------

It seems hardly anyone knows that "fulfill means." Jesus said that he "fulfilled" the LAW, yet it is taught today in the Church that it YET needs to be fulfilled BY US. What is that?  I have never heard a minister yet put the parts of Christ declaration together:


"Think not that I am come to destroy the law OR THE PROPHETS: I am not come to destroy, [the law AND THE PROPHETS], but to fulfill [the law AND THE PROPHETS]" (Matt. 5:17).

Now then, did Jesus Christ "fulfill" all of the prophecies concerning Him? Well if He did, then does there REMAIN any that He DID NOT FULFILL? Then why doesn't anyone, it seems, believe that He also and in the very same way fulfilled "the law?"

 We are now under a NEW COVENANT [and Hebrews 8 tells us that this NEW covenant is NOT IN ACCORD with the OLD covenant.

 The Pharisees kept the old testament law of Moses with its ten commandments. But Jesus said that WE, Believers, must FAR EXCEED the righteousness of the Pharisees. Jesus gave us NEW COMMANDMENTS that are far superior to the old law. Christ's laws are SPIRITUAL laws. The Old Covenant which really IS "the ten commandments" (See Deut. 4:13) was an administration of DEATH. The laws were of the letter (death) not of the spirit (life). See II Cor. 3.

 Under the Old Covenant you were to HATE YOUR ENEMIES. Under the New we are to LOVE OUR ENEMIES. Love your enemies is not a slight modification of hating your enemies.  Not lusting after a woman is not a slight modification of not committing physical intercourse with a married woman. NOT SWEARING is not a slight modification of swearing!  Etc. Can you see this? Under the old covenant one was to love his neighbor as himself. Under the new we are to esteem our neighbor HIGHER than ourselves. Do you see the difference?

 Things that were "holy" and have run their course, are NO LONGER Holy. All Israel was Holy. Physical Israel is no longer holy. Sacrifices were HOLY unto the Lord; they no longer are.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4115.0.html ----------------------

Dear David:  It is not wrong to study the "Law" portions of Scripture. If, however, you think that you need to "keep" the law as ancient Israel attempted to do, you will accomplish very little. The reason for this is because "The LAW IS SPIRITUAL....." (Rom. 7:14).  ONLY  "Christ is the end [the goal, result, purpose, conclusion] of the law for righteousness in every one that believes" (Rom. 10:4). NO orthodox Jew can keep the law of God WITHOUT CHRIST! This is a lesson they will yet have to learn in Judgment.

God be with you,

Ray

[Gina]

Woo hoo!  Much to study here.  Thanks for your replies and help, Kat.   (Ray's response to Jason cracks me up.)

[Gina]

ha!  Ray goes...   Is "legalistic" a dirty word to you?   he he!

[Extol]

  (Ray's response to Jason cracks me up.)

 

Four Oh really?s in a row. I love it.

[Gina]

here it is .... 

Oh really?  "The LAW was nailed to the cross," was it?  And do you have chapter and verse on that bit of unscriptural nonsense  Col 2:14 "Blotting out THE HANDWRITING OF ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross."  God never nailed His "LAW" to the cross.  The Covenant Law which IS THE TEN COMMANDMENTS was not a "handwriting of ordinances," but was rather chiseled IN STONE, and was placed IN the ark of the Covenant, not on the OUTSIDE of the ark as were the ordinances.  You have not a clue as to what you are talking about.

I vaguely remember reading this email and response but I had just gotten laid off from my job after six years and I started a new job in a new area of law, and my nephew had just died (at 16 from complications arising from his "healthcare") the year before and I couldn't think too straight.  My head was kind of spinning from everything and I was not really able to focus on what I was reading. 

This is so good to see again.  So the handwritten ordinances were on the outside of the ark, wow.   Okay and that is what he took out of the way.  He never nailed his law to the cross.  The covenant law which is the ten commandments was not a handwriting of ordinances, but was rather chiseled in stone (as in our stony hearts, maybe?).

There's lots here.  I want to go back and see what those handwritten ordinances on the outside of the ark were now but then again, maybe I don't.

Thank you again.

[Gina]

  (Ray's response to Jason cracks me up.)

 

Four Oh really?s in a row. I love it.

hehe !  I agree -- there's no such thing as too many "Ray Oh, really's?"