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[rick]

How is it that the elect while in this life still sin, however at the appearing of Christ they will be changed in the twinkling of an eye an sin no more ?

Ray said that God cannot instill virtue in a person but must be taught by overcoming some form
of evil, if that is the case then how is it possible for Christ to instill anymore virtue in the elect
at His appearing if virtue must be taught by overcoming some form of evil ?

We know Christ said to a certain pharisee that he will not be forgiven in this age or the next age to come but we do know he will be eventually forgiven and I assume there will be a certain percentage born in the next age that will end up in the age after the next age undergoing the lake of fire.

If Christ can change the elect in the twinkling of an eye why not change everyone at the end of this age in the twinkling of an eye ? Not that He’s going to, just curious.

[Gina]

Rick,

It's been well established that the elect don't sin willfully.  They're in corruptible bodies and working out their salvation with fear and trembling (because it is God who works in you to will and to do...).

Why are the elect changed in the twinkling of an eye?  Maybe I'm crisscrossing segments of the scriptures, but I thought Ray said that we have no consciousness of the state of death, and so at the last trump we are raised (resurrected/woken up) it will seem as though we closed our eyes (at death/sleep) one minute and opened then the next.  Haven't you ever been under anesthesia?  Or had a really good nap and woke up three hours later thinking you'd only been sleeping for a minute?

As for why the elect are transformed, well, it's the promised gift of eternal life only for those who are (dragged to Christ by the Father) and learn to trust in God and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.  The wicked, unbelieving, disobedient, whoever... are paid wages of death:

22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.  23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The elect receive their prize laid up for them:  the crown of glory.
The unbelievers, etc., are cast into the Lake of Fire.

The reason God doesn't change everybody in an instant is because what would be learned?  That we could be made instantly perfect?  Wow!   How unexciting is that?  LOL  We have to learn and suffer as Christ learned obedience through the things that He suffered.  Who wants to be last?  Who wants to sell everything they have and give their money to the poor?  These are things that takes years of learning to overcome. 

Besides you have to believe God exists and the wicked and unbelievers don't.  They doubt all the time and so in that state of mind they can't expect would receive anything from God because...they don't believe God exists. 

Besides, the wicked and unbelieving wouldn't know what to do with the gift once they got it -- they'd have no experience at trusting God or knowing how He operates.  These things takes years of hard work.  The carnally minded, the wicked and unbelieving don't like the sound of that because they are lazy and pretentious and want everything to come easy, like a bunch of misbehaved, uneducated spoiled brats.  Sorry, but that's the way it is.

Did you read that post I put up where Ray said that we would all become God (perfect) once we could prove that we could handle the power? 

[Gina]

PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL  RESURRECTION BODIES FOR THE WICKED & NON-BELIEVERS?

This is a rather involved study that I have only a short time to touch upon at this time. I realize that this will probably (as always) raise even more questions in other areas. Please don’t try to speculate yourself in unscriptural solutions to these potential mysteries. I must stay focused on those studies which I deem most import for our site at this time, and don’t have the time to be side-tracked too often.

There are few places in the Old Testament where a resurrection of dead people are mentioned or alluded to.  Jesus stated that the declaration, “Now concerning the resurrection of the dead, did you not read that which is declared to you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living” (Matt. 22:31).

This statement proves that if God is the “God of the living,” but Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are dead when Jesus mentions them, then there has got to be a resurrection of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

The major prophecy concerning the resurrection is found in Ezek. 37. Here we are shown a valley of “dry bones” which God says represents “the WHOLE House of Israel” -- “And He said unto me, `Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; lo, they are saying: Dried up have our bones, And perished has our hope, We have been cut off by ourselves” (Ezek. 37:11).

So the whole House of Israel dies in a condition of being “perished” with no “hope,” and are “cut off.”  But what does God tell Ezekiel He will do for them?

I am prophesying, and lo, a rushing, and draw near do the bones, bone unto its bone."

Eze 37:8  “And I beheld, and lo, on them [are] sinews [tendons, strength, muscular power], and flesh [muscles, fat, etc.]  has come up, and cover them does skin [the outer covering of a physical body] over above--and spirit there is none in them."

I know of no “spiritual” tendons, muscles, fat or skin, that are put on physical “bones” to remake a “spiritual” man.  This is a PHYSICAL resurrection of the dead, Eze 37:10 “And I have prophesied as He commanded me, and the Spirit comes into them, and they live, and stand on their feet--a very very great force” (Ezek. 37:10).
 
Notice that it takes the spirit from God to give these dried bones life once more. They then “stand on their feet.” This is the exact and precise definition of the word “resurrection.” It means to “stand up” upon one’s feet, but the word itself has nothing to do with being “spiritual” or “immortal” whatsoever.  Jesus raised a little girl and Lazarus from the dead, and they stood up on their feet and lived—they were not made spiritual bodies or given immortality. Likewise those saints resurrected at Christ’s resurrection, were not given spiritual bodies or immortality.

Nowhere are the wicked promised immortality or incorruption, nowhere.  The most thorough study on the resurrection of the saints is found in I Corinthians. Let’s notice a few things that most overlook:

Is the subject of I Corinthians 15, the world?  The salvation of the wicked?  The resurrection of the wicked?  NO.  Let’s read it:

“Moreover, brethren [the world? NO, ‘brethren’] I declare unto YOU the gospel…” (I Cor. 15:1).

“…by which also YOU are saved…” (Verse 2).

“For I delivered unto YOU….” (Verse 3).  Etc.

What is the “order” of the resurrection of which Paul speaks?  “But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward THEY THAT ARE CHRIST’S at His coming” (Verse 23).

The resurrection taught in this chapter is that of “they that are CHRIST’S,” not the resurrection of the wicked to Judgment.  Pay attention TO THE WORDS!

1Co 15:50  “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”

Chapter 15 is speaking of the true Elect Saints of God “inheriting the Kingdom of God.  Is the act of raising the wicked from the dead and act of their “inheriting the Kingdom of God?” I think not.  Will the wicked then “inherit incorruption” at their resurrection?  Well many say “YES, yes they will.”  NO, no they WON’T!  Are men like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler and Saddam Hussein, who are among the most “corruptible” men who have ever lived, going to be given bodies that are “incorruptible?”   Do the Scriptures lie when they tell us that “corruption” (as in the above named persons) does NOT “inherit incorruption?”

We are told that a seed must die to give life to a new seed, or grain, or body (Verse 36).

What KIND of new seed comes about from planting a seed that first must die?  1Co 15:37  “And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain”

Are we told what the “other” grain might be that sprouts like “wheat?”  Yes, as a matter of fact, we are:  Mat 13:25  But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

And are these “tares” also gathered into the barns (brought into the Kingdom of God)?  NO, Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest [resurrection] I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles [different ‘groups’ at different ‘burnings’?]  to burn them [in the Lake of Fire]: but gather the wheat into my barn [My KINGDOM].

NO, in the day of harvest, not all will come up “immortal and incorruptible.”

What else do we learn about the resurrection of God’s Elect?  What are some of the features of their newly resurrected bodies?

“…but the glory of the celestial [high, above, heavenly] is one, and the glory of the terrestrial [worldly, EARTHLY] is another” (Verse 40).

Which category do the Elect come in?  Now pay attention:  1Co 15:48-49  As is the earthy, such  ARE  they also that  ARE  earthy: and as is the heavenly, such  ARE  they also that are heavenly.  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, WE SHALL  also bear the image of the heavenly.

Notice that ONLY “we”  [God’s Elect], not “they,”  “…shall bear the image of the heavenly.”  Paul is speaking that “THEY, the earthy,” and “WE, the heavenly,” and only the “we” will “bear the image of the heavenly,” not “they,” the wicked who will be raised as tares to be burned in the Lake of Fire.

Now we can understand verse 50 in proper context:  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption [corrupt men like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler, and Saddam Hussein]  inherit incorruption.

The ONLY ones who inherit incorruption are those “WE [who] have borne the image of the earthly [and] shall bear the image of the heavenly.”  And this happens at a specific time:

1Co 15:51  Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory”  (I Cor. 15:51-54).

It is the “we” and the “us” that will be changed at the last trump, not the “they” and the “them.”

Should Mao, Adolph, and Saddam be resurrected to incorruptible and immortal bodies, then death would also be “swallowed up in victory” in THEIR LIVES ALSO.  How could they go through the “second DEATH” if “death” would have already been “swallowed up in VICTORY” in their miserable, wicked, vile, and deranged carnal minds?  Such people know nothing of  “the law of the Spirit of LIFE in Christ Jesus.”  They know only of “law of SIN AND DEATH” (Rom. 8:2).

Notice these verses describing the resurrection of God’s elect:

1Co 15:42-45  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in INCORRUPTION:  It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in GLORY: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in POWER:  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

INCORRUPTION:  Strong’s #861, aphtharsia, “from #862 [un-decaying]; incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: immortality, incorruption, sincerity.”

Note:  INCORRUPTIBILITY, UNENDING EXISTENCE, GENUINENESS, IMMORTALITY, INCORRUPTION, SINCERITY

GLORY:  Strong’s #1391, doxa, G1391 From the base of G1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literally or figuratively, objectively or subjectively): - dignity, glory (-ious), honor, praise, worship.

Note:  GLORY (AS VERY APPARENT GLORY), DIGNITY, GLORY, GLORIOUS, HONOR, PRAISE, WORSHIP

POWER:  Strong’s #1411, dunamis, From G1410;  “force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.”

Note:  FORCE, MIRACULOUS POWER, ABILITY, ABUNDANCE, MIGHT, MIGHTY, WORKIER OF MIRACLES, POWER, STRENGTH,  (‘violence’ only when referencing an carnal person), MIGHTY (wonderful) WORK

SPIRITUAL:  Strong’s #4152, pneumatikos From G4151;  “non-carnal, that is, (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious: - spiritual.

Note:  NON-CARNAL ETHEREAL (as opposed to gross or daemoniacally) SPIRIT, DIVINELY, SUPER NATURAL, REGENERATE, RELIGIOUS, SPIRITUAL

Now let’s foolishly assume that the wicked are going to be resurrected with “spiritual” bodies. The only place in Scripture that anyone is said to be resurrected with a “spiritual body,” is in these many references in I Cor. 15. So if a resurrected “spiritual body” applies to the unjust and the wicked and the unbelievers, then these attributes which constitute a “spiritual body” resurrection MUST APPLY TO THEM ALSO.  Now then, show me one Scripture anywhere that justifies people like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler, or Saddam Hussein being resurrected with:

INCORRUPTIBILITY, UNENDING EXISTENCE, GENUINENESS, IMMORTALITY, INCORRUPTION, SINCERITY, GLORY (AS VERY APPARENT GLORY), DIGNITY, GLORY, GLORIOUS, HONOR, PRAISE, WORSHIP, FORCE, MIRACULOUS POWER, ABILITY, ABUNDANCE, MIGHT, MIGHTY, WORKER OF MIRACLES, POWER, STRENGTH,  (‘violence’ only when referencing an carnal person), MIGHTY (wonderful) WORK, NON-CARNAL, ETHEREAL, SPIRIT, DIVINELY, SUPER NATURAL, REGENERATE, RELIGIOUS, SPIRITUAL
 
Is there anywhere a Scripture that presents the resurrection of the wicked in such a glorious, and holy, divine light?  I think not. Rather we are presented with this as the characterization of the resurrected wicked to eonian judgment:

Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting [eonian] life, and some to shame [rebuke, reproach, disgrace] and everlasting [eonian] contempt [repulsion, aversion, abhorrence].

Is it possible to have a greater contradiction of character traits than this?  No, those who are spared death at the conclusion of this eon and will live on into the reign of Jesus Christ with their physical bodies, will not be outdone by the wicked who are raised from their graves. There will not be two communities of non-believers being judged—one in physical bodies, and those among the worst of humanity that have ever lived, being in beautiful, glorious, powerful, incorruptible, SPIRITUAL bodies.  It’s unscriptural nonsense as far as I can see.  Hope this helps your understanding a little better.

God be with you,

Ray

[Gina]

Sorry, one more thought. 

I was just thinking how a certain fanatical "religious" group goes around blowing themselves up and everyone around them because they believe that they will be immediately ushered into some kingdom afterlife where they'll be rewarded for their "faithfulness to Allah" and as a payment for their "sacrifice" receive all these wives and all this food or some junk like that.  It's so retarded.  They actually believe that they've done God a service.

Isaiah 59 Their feet run to evil, And they hasten to shed innocent blood; Their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity, Devastation and destruction are in their highways. 8They do not know the way of peace, And there is no justice in their tracks; They have made their paths crooked, Whoever treads on them does not know peace.

[rick]

Rick,

It's been well established that the elect don't sin willfully.  They're in corruptible bodies and working out their salvation with fear and trembling (because it is God who works in you to will and to do...).

Why are the elect changed in the twinkling of an eye?  Maybe I'm crisscrossing segments of the scriptures, but I thought Ray said that we have no consciousness of the state of death, and so at the last trump we are raised (resurrected/woken up) it will seem as though we closed our eyes (at death/sleep) one minute and opened then the next.  Haven't you ever been under anesthesia?  Or had a really good nap and woke up three hours later thinking you'd only been sleeping for a minute?

As for why the elect are transformed, well, it's the promised gift of eternal life only for those who are (dragged to Christ by the Father) and learn to trust in God and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.  The wicked, unbelieving, disobedient, whoever... are paid wages of death:

22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.  23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The elect receive their prize laid up for them:  the crown of glory.
The unbelievers, etc., are cast into the Lake of Fire.

The reason God doesn't change everybody in an instant is because what would be learned?  That we could be made instantly perfect?  Wow!   How unexciting is that?  LOL  We have to learn and suffer as Christ learned obedience through the things that He suffered.  Who wants to be last?  Who wants to sell everything they have and give their money to the poor?  These are things that takes years of learning to overcome. 

Besides you have to believe God exists and the wicked and unbelievers don't.  They doubt all the time and so in that state of mind they can't expect would receive anything from God because...they don't believe God exists. 

Besides, the wicked and unbelieving wouldn't know what to do with the gift once they got it -- they'd have no experience at trusting God or knowing how He operates.  These things takes years of hard work.  The carnally minded, the wicked and unbelieving don't like the sound of that because they are lazy and pretentious and want everything to come easy, like a bunch of misbehaved, uneducated spoiled brats.  Sorry, but that's the way it is.

Did you read that post I put up where Ray said that we would all become God (perfect) once we could prove that we could handle the power?

Hello Gina,

Perhaps I have not conveyed myself properly, my question has nothing to do with the elect but everything to do with the fact that the elect are not perfect or perfected here and now and not being perfect in this life how does Christ make them perfect at His appearing ?                       

why does not Christ do for those non elect as He does for the elect ? After all the scriptures do say that Christ or God I should say is no respecter of persons.

Act 10:34  And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Rom 2:11  for there is no respect of persons with God.

I must say although I bet Esau feels somewhat perplex by Act 10:34

Rom 9:13  Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

Eph 1:4  even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:

Pe 1:20  who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,


But then if I weigh Act 10:34 against Eph 1:4 and Pe 1:20 I become confused ,no doubt someone will quote me 1 Co 14:33

1Co 14:33  for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace.

Please don’t do the Christian thing here and you know what Ray said about all of Christendom about how they are always trying to get God off the hook, God needs no ones help.

I’ll await your answer to my questions Gina.

[Gina]

Hello Gina,

Hey, Rick

Perhaps I have not conveyed myself properly, my question has nothing to do with the elect but everything to do with the fact that the elect are not perfect or perfected here and now and not being perfect in this life how does Christ make them perfect at His appearing ?                       

I'm sorry, I thought your question was about the elect and how they are perfected by Christ?  Forgive me?

Wow, this is a huge subject.  How are the elect perfected at the appearing of Christ? 

Christ appeared many times to many different people and none of them were made perfect at that instant of His appearing before them because perfection takes time and is a process. 

10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

He presented himself alive to them after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God.

etc.,  etc.

Christ said that if you endure to the end you shall be saved (perfected?).

When is the end?  The end is when you die and your spirit returns to God. 

What is perfection?  We are told to become perfect even as our heavenly Father is perfect.  Now, patience is one of God's attributes and means long-suffering.  Not short-suffering, long-suffering.

The bible says:  The one who has suffered in his flesh is finished with sin. 

Why do you assume the elect aren't perfected in this life?   After all, the elect are raised imperishable at the resurrection to life eonian - and reign with Christ.

The elect sin not willingly and when they do they, being prompted by the Holy Spirit, boldly draw near to the throne of grace for well-time help coming just when they need it (Hebrews).  It is God's kindness that leads to repentance. 

 

why does not Christ do for those non elect as He does for the elect ? After all the scriptures do say that Christ or God I should say is no respecter of persons.

I understand.  I asked this question too a long time ago on the forum because I was still steeped in sin.   I didn't believe the scriptures, Rick, because I didn't like the way God operated.  I think I was jealous and assumed that the elect had done something to earn being chosen as an elect.  I'm really ashamed of even thinking that now. 

God hardens whomever He wills and he has mercy on whomever He wills, and that's all there is to it.  We've discussed this before -- Paul was the chief of sinners, and none of the apostles did anything to be chosen of God.  "I chose you, you did not choose me." 

The elect are chosen by God when they are weak and sinners, so no one can boast.

Act 10:34  And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Rom 2:11  for there is no respect of persons with God.

I must say although I bet Esau feels somewhat perplex by Act 10:34

Rom 9:13  Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

Eph 1:4  even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:

Pe 1:20  who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,


But then if I weigh Act 10:34 against Eph 1:4 and Pe 1:20 I become confused ,no doubt someone will quote me 1 Co 14:33

1Co 14:33  for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace.

Please don’t do the Christian thing here and you know what Ray said about all of Christendom about how they are always trying to get God off the hook, God needs no ones help.

He is not a respecter of persons.  The elect are His workmanship.  The Potter has every right to make out of the clay anything He chooses.  When some asked Paul that question, he said - Who are you to answer back to God? 

Remember, Ray said Jesus' speech EXPLODED with the proud.  They were carnal.  He couldn't do anything right in their eyes - not matter what He did they always found fault with Him because they were carnally-minded.  But with the humble, He was much gentler. 



I’ll await your answer to my questions Gina.

How was that?

[Gina]

Post Script

Romans 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy,

God is enduring with a LOT of patience the vessels of wrath, even though He desires to show his wrath and to make His power known.  Why?  Because that's how He makes known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy. 

That's why He doesn't just go Abra-Cadabra - Bllliinnngg!  and make everyone perfect.  Think about it, if everyone was made perfect, how could a man's enemies be that of his own household? 

It's that necessary backdrop of evil.  We need contrast.  We need need the dark backdrop of evil as a contrast so that the vessels of mercy can see the riches of His glory.  What are the riches of His glory?  His mercy.  His much patience.  When the sinful woman saw it, she repented and fell down at His feet and kissed them over and over again.   When the Roman Soldier who needed his servant healed recognized Who Jesus was, he said, I'm not worthy to have you under my roof but if you just say the word, he will be healed. 

If you're honest, you recognize that you deserve wrath but instead of wrath you obtain mercy (God's kindness).  Then, you begin to hate your own sin, instead of hating God.  And vessel of mercy can only really see just how much patience God has had with them when they see God bestowing his patience on the vessels of wrath.  But He needs vessels of wrath in order to do that.  If He made everyone vessels of mercy, how could His mercy and riches and glory be made manifest?  There would be nothing to contrast it to.  That was Adam and Eve's problem.  They had nothing to contrast all the good things God had given them.  So along comes Satan.....  and the rest is history.

[rick]

Wow, this is a huge subject.  How are the elect perfected at the appearing of Christ? 

Christ appeared many times to many different people and none of them were made perfect at that instant of His appearing before them because perfection takes time and is a process. 

Hello Gina,

Has 1Co 15:52 been fulfilled and I don’t know about it ? Or are you insinuating that when 1Co15:52 been fulfilled that those who have been change are not perfected at that time ?

1Co 15:52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I understand that Christ appeared to many people after His crucifixion Gina but not in the context of 1Co15:52.

So let me rephrase my original question, how does Christ instantly perfect that which is not perfected at His appearing as stated in 1Co15:52. The reason again why I ask this question is because Ray said that virtue can only be learned by overcoming some form of evil.

However according to 1Co15:52 there is no overcoming any form of evil, one will be instantly changed.

[Kat]

Perhaps I have not conveyed myself properly, my question has nothing to do with the elect but everything to do with the fact that the elect are not perfect or perfected here and now and not being perfect in this life how does Christ make them perfect at His appearing ?                       

why does not Christ do for those non elect as He does for the elect ? After all the scriptures do say that Christ or God I should say is no respecter of persons.

Hi Rick, I guess it all depends on how you understand the plan of God. Do you think that God is not accomplishing anything in those He has chosen now? Those that are chosen are still subject to their carnal flesh in this life... that is the struggle Paul speaks of in Romans 7. But for the few that God has chosen and given the Holy Spirit indwelling, they are becoming overcomers.

1John 5:4  For whatever is born (begotten CLV, YLT) of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

And where does this "faith" come from? It's certainly not 'our' faith by which we overcome the lusts of the flesh.

Eph 2:8  For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
v. 9  not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

So God gives us faith and it's the faith of Jesus, not our own faith, so with that we can overcome. It's all Jesus Christ - the Comforter - Holy Spirit doing it in us, that's what makes the difference for those going through the narrow gate now.

1Cor 1:30  But God has brought you into union with Christ Jesus, and God has made Christ to be our wisdom. By Him we are put right with God; we become God's holy people and are set free.
v. 31  So then, as the scripture says, "Whoever wants to boast must boast of what the Lord has done."

So WE cannot make our self "perfect" and sinless while in the flesh, but by the Spirit of Christ indwelling we are made pure in the eyes of God. 

Heb 10:14  With one sacrifice, then, He has made perfect forever those who are purified from sin.

1Cor 6:11  And such were some of you. But you are washed, but you are sanctified(G37), but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

G37 sanctified (hagiazō) - to make holy, that is, (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate: - hallow, be holy, sanctify.

Now as you were concerned why God has chosen a few now ahead of the many, because "there is no partiality with God" (Rom 2:11)... so how can that be? Because the chosen were not picked because they are special or deserved to be chosen first, they are not 'respected' more... actually it's quite the opposite.

1Cor 1:27  But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
v. 28  and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
v. 29  that no flesh should glory in His presence.

So God is bringing a few of the less probable ones to Christ right now in this age, to show how great He is in working salvation in us "that no flesh should glory," not because those few are better than the rest. No, and the rest are not forgotten, they certainly are not less important to God, they will be brought into the kingdom in time, by these few "foolish... base things," as Heb 11:40 says. The chosen few are overcomers because of Christ indwelling... it's a constant struggle and we stumble and fall often, it's a learning process. This is the preparation for what is to come when Christ returns, and this process must come first.

2Cor 5:5  Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

2Tim 2:21  Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

1John 3:2  Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

1Co 15:52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
v. 53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption (G861), and this mortal must put on immortality.

G861 incorruption (aphtharsia) - incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: - immortality, incorruption, sincerity.

1Th 4:17  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

At resurrection Christ calls His elect up to met Him and these weak physical fleshly bodies will be replaced with powerful glorious spiritual bodies, so they can rule with Christ and they will be one with God and they will then be perfect "like Him."

1Cor 15:49  And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
v. 50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Matt 25:34  Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Rev 21:2  Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[indianabob]

Hi Rick,

Not sure my comments will help, but I noticed that one part of your question dealt with God NOT being a respecter of persons. I think that is a fair question and many have had the same thoughts.
The answer in my understanding is that God is simply calling a few ahead of the others.

 All are going to be called, but not all are to be at the head of the line.

In God's loving plan, the few, the elect will be called ahead of the rest so that a group of instructors, trainers, experienced guides and elder brothers/sisters will be available to smooth the path for those to follow.
The followers who come alive after the return of Christ and the establishment of God's kingdom on earth will be made alive again in an environment filled with love and understanding. An environment wherein there will be one pure language, one teaching of truth, no war, no confusion, no Satan to buffet them etc etc.

Their life of correction, of being taught righteousness, will be a much easier path than the one the elect will have lived through. There will be difficult codes of conduct, there will be sacrifice of personal desires and of resistance to the pulls of the flesh, the pride of life, the lust of the eyes etc. However all will need to go through the same training as their neighbor, no one will be treated differently.
They will have the perfect example of the elect to lead them into overcoming and appreciation of the gift of loving concern for others equal to ones love for self.

Indiana Bob

See Matthew 20:1-16

The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard

20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

[Gina]

Wow, this is a huge subject.  How are the elect perfected at the appearing of Christ? 

Christ appeared many times to many different people and none of them were made perfect at that instant of His appearing before them because perfection takes time and is a process. 

Hello Gina,

Has 1Co 15:52 been fulfilled and I don’t know about it ? Or are you insinuating that when 1Co15:52 been fulfilled that those who have been change are not perfected at that time ?

1Co 15:52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I understand that Christ appeared to many people after His crucifixion Gina but not in the context of 1Co15:52.

So let me rephrase my original question, how does Christ instantly perfect that which is not perfected at His appearing as stated in 1Co15:52. The reason again why I ask this question is because Ray said that virtue can only be learned by overcoming some form of evil.

However according to 1Co15:52 there is no overcoming any form of evil, one will be instantly changed.

Hi, Rick

There isn't any overcoming any form of evil while anyone is dead because there is no work or contrivance in death. 

There isn't any weakness in death either.  In death you're just .... dead.  There's no life at all in the body of the dead man, let alone any weakness. 
 
The body itself isn't sinful.  It's weak and corruptible and must be put off. 

It is sown in weakness (so it can fall to the ground and die?); it is raised in power. 
It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in Honor and Glory.
It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body.


The elect don't put on perfection at the resurrection.  They receive Immortality.

Immortality is immortality.  Perfection is perfection.  And no one is given immortality until they are made perfect through suffering. 

fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith (not the body).  For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame ["dishonor"], and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Heb. 12:2)

Christ doesn't perfect people in an instant. 

Patience by its very nature is something that takes a lot of time to develop and has to occur while someone is fully conscious. 

So the body is sown in dishonor but that doesn't mean that the body is itself dishonorable, but it is perishable and so it is dishonored (treated shamefully) so that the person can learn what it means to suffer patiently. 


4Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household."

Immortal beings can't suffer because their glorious bodies aren't made that way.  I love it.

I like Kat and Bob's replies.

[rick]

Hi Kat,

Thank you for your response, also I would like to say thank you for helping me understand that God is no respecter of persons seeing where they the elect have done nothing deserving of being chosen by God.

What I was getting hung up on was the fact that while we are in this life there will always be temptations one will succumb to even at the time of ones death, however once dead one can no longer act upon those temptations but none the less had that one lived there would of been more that one could of worked on or rather God could of worked on had they lived, meaning they did not die in a perfect state.

 
So with this thought in mind they will be resurrected in a changed state which I would interpret as a spiritual body and mind that are completely righteous ,completely converted.   

So my thoughts are as followed, that there would of been could of been a virtue/s they had not at the time of their death but in the resurrection they now are completely virtuous without overcoming some form of evil.

That was the point I was trying to make but obviously failed at it most miserably.

Thanks again Kat.      

[repottinger]

Dear Rick,
I just thought I might re-emphasize that, as Kat said, God IS accomplishing SOME things in those that He has chosen now—through His Holy Spirit, they are becoming overcomers (just not to the point of leading sinless lives, of course), while the non-elect are not given the opportunity to do so in this life:

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne (Revelation 3:21, AKJV).

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son (Revelation 21:7, AKJV).

Thus, it seems that the elect are able to be changed "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump" as a reward for the fruit they have produced while overcoming in this life. (If anyone here sees any type of error or problem in this line of thinking, I would appreciate it if you could let me know.)
Your brother in Christ,
Randy

[Gina]

[deleted]   (It wasn't a very nice post.  Sorry everyone.)

[rick]

What I was getting hung up on was the fact that while we are in this life there will always be temptations one will succumb to even at the time of ones death, however once dead one can no longer act upon those temptations but none the less had that one lived there would of been more that one could of worked on or rather God could of worked on had they lived, meaning they did not die in a perfect state.

 
So with this thought in mind they will be resurrected in a changed state which I would interpret as a spiritual body and mind that are completely righteous ,completely converted.   

So my thoughts are as followed, [bt]hat there would of been could of been a virtue/s they had not at the time of their death but in the resurrection they now are completely virtuous without overcoming some form of evil.[/b]

Hi, Rick

The elect overcome the world. 

It's not a "fact" that the elect succumb to (fail to resist) temptations even at the time of death.  All you have to do is consider the fact of how many people are unconsciousness, or comatose or drugged out long before and up to an including the time of their death?   As long as they are in a state, how can they be tempted by anything?  They aren't even aware!

And even if the elect are semi-conscious or totally conscious at the time of death (like Jesus was, as he hung on the cross), Paul said:

No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

"There would of been could of been a virtue/s they had not (had not what? overcome?) at the time of their death"

It amazes me that you don't know the difference between immortality and perfection, or even how to ask a simple question to get a simple answer, but you make statements of fact about the time of death for people, as if you had all knowledge and could see into the future.

It's not that way for God's elect who overcome the world.  God sees to it that they endure to the end.   God is love and love never fails.

It's not a "fact" that God doesn't finish His work in the lives of those He chooses.  Paul said,

I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

Morbid, morbid.  So morbid is your thinking.  What do you watch on TV or youtube.?

Hi Gina,

As I listen to you 1Co13:1 comes to mind.                           

1Co 13:1  If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.

Have a nice day Gina and may God bless you.

[Kat]

So let me rephrase my original question, how does Christ instantly perfect that which is not perfected at His appearing as stated in 1Co15:52. The reason again why I ask this question is because Ray said that virtue can only be learned by overcoming some form of evil.

However according to 1Co15:52 there is no overcoming any form of evil, one will be instantly changed.

Hi Rick, I thought I would make one more point about this 'perfection' the elect gain at resurrection... I do not believe it means to have experienced and overcome every possible lust and temptation, but perfect in being joined to God in absolute oneness/unity.

John 17:22  And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
v. 23  I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect (completed) in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

I don't see this life as giving us a knowledge in every possible sin and how to overcome it so that we have gained every possible virtue. God is building a body of believers that are unique individuals and we all have different experiences that give us knowledge in certain areas, but not 'all' areas.

Eph 4:15  but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—
v. 16  from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

I don't think it's a question of being a perfect individual in every way, but of being "complete (perfect) IN HIM."

Col 2:9  For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
v. 10  and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

So if you can see what I'm talking about? I don't think it's necessary for us to gain more virtue in having more time in this life to overcome more sin, so we all reach the same perfection overcoming every possible lust... God wants us to be individuals. He gives us all strengths and weaknesses to learn from, so each of us have the exact experiences we need to make us what He needs in His body of believers, so the BODY is complete and perfectly whole.

When I think about the next age and the elect ruling with Christ, I think He will have prepared elect that have experienced every problem/weakness known to man to complete the body. So He will have somebody ready to meet any and every need to serve Him and can understand and sympathize with any situation that comes up in dealing with what people need.

1Co 12:12  For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

v. 14  For in fact the body is not one member but many.
v. 15  If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body," is it therefore not of the body?
v. 16  And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body," is it therefore not of the body?

v. 18  But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased.
v. 19  And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
v. 20  But now indeed there are many members, yet one body.

v. 27  Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.

v. 6  And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.
v. 7  But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[rick]

So let me rephrase my original question, how does Christ instantly perfect that which is not perfected at His appearing as stated in 1Co15:52. The reason again why I ask this question is because Ray said that virtue can only be learned by overcoming some form of evil.

However according to 1Co15:52 there is no overcoming any form of evil, one will be instantly changed.

Hi Rick, I thought I would make one more point about this 'perfection' the elect gain at resurrection... I do not believe it means to have experienced and overcome every possible lust and temptation, but perfect in being joined to God in absolute oneness/unity.

Hi Kat,

The three questions I enquired of at the beginning of this thread which was (1 ) how do the elect at the appearing of Christ sin no more, ( 2 ) God being a respecter of persons and ( 3 ) why does not Christ change everyone in the twinkling of an eye at the end of this aged.


In both of your replies the first being # 8 and the 2nd being # 17 have answered all three question which of two I find were answered directly and the third indirectly, you have not only given me a satisfactory answer but have taken my understanding beyond even what I could of hoped for in such a short time.

I thank you much for both your patience and kindness towards me a wretched man who one day will be made in the image of our creator.

Just a thought, if you are one of Gods elect and I’m not I would pray to God I could learn in the next age under someone so gentle as you.

God bless you Kat. 

[John9362]

Gina and Kat "Rock"   LOVE you guys !! 

[Gina]

Thank you, John.  Yes, Kat definitely has a great gift.  We are all fortunate to have her here.

[pylady]

Hi Rick,
Just wanted to address the first part of your question about the elects still sinning while in the flesh, perhaps even to the time of death, but then being changed at the appearance of Christ and sin no more.  This confused me for awhile too.

Here's what I found - God is not making us sinless (perfect) in this age.  As long as we are in the flesh we will sin, maybe not willingly, but the flesh is still weak.  He created us with this weak nature to teach us right from wrong.

Here's what He is doing for us in this age:
Ezek 36:26  "Moreover I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you;"
Jer 24:7  "And I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the Lord; and they (the elect) will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with their whole heart."
Matt 5:8  "Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God."
Matt 22:37  "You shall love the Lord your God will all your heart,and all your soul and all your mind."
see also Romans 10:10; Luke 12:34; Prov 23:7

In this age it's all about His changing our heart so we want to please Him above all else.  Even though we sometimes fall, we do so unwillingly.  When we are resurrected there will be no more temptations of the flesh because there will be no more flesh.  And if we want to please Him now, think how we will feel when we see Him as He is!

Rest easy Rick.  God is working on our hearts.  Where is your treasure?

Cindy