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[Gina]

Gina,

The reason I call you a liar is because you take my words then twist them into statements I did not say.  Those twisted statements come from your mind.

I never said Jesus was subject to Satan.  Even in His human existence Jesus was the Master over Satan.  How?  Because Jesus had the Spirit of God without measure.

One way in which human life is lower than angel life is that humans can die.  Angels do not die since they are spirit.  That is why the Scriptures say Jesus was made lower than the angels, so that He could die.  When Jesus was the Almighty God in Power He could not die or be killed.  Am I going too fast for you?

Now I assume you will twist my words again into some lie from your mind.  You have a spirit of hatred and bitterness and lies within you.  You do know from where that comes?

....said the Messenger of Satan to torment and buffet me.   Meh~   

[repottinger]

Thank you for the great writings by Ray on Satan and angels, Kat; they were really informative.
Your brother in Christ,
Randy

[Mike Gagne]

Hi You All!

John from Kentucky maybe judge whats in your heart, because I am sure you don't know anyone elses and quit saying negative things about others you sound like a school yard bully....

I guess it's a good thing for me that there is no eternal hell fire. 


However, you should read the link below.  I'm a pussycat compared to how Jesus spoke.

http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm


And old roofer Ray could make some choice comments.

John, Jesus didn't have a log in his eye and his judgements are righteous judgements,  you how ever are not righteous. I don't need you to point out links to LRays  teachings.
 The Elect are not the righteous judges in this life, they are the ones in judgement and not by each other but by JESUS!!!

[rick]

Hi You All!

John from Kentucky maybe judge whats in your heart, because I am sure you don't know anyone elses and quit saying negative things about others you sound like a school yard bully....

I guess it's a good thing for me that there is no eternal hell fire. 


However, you should read the link below.  I'm a pussycat compared to how Jesus spoke.

http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm


And old roofer Ray could make some choice comments.

 The Elect are not the righteous judges in this life, they are the ones in judgement and not by each other but by JESUS!!!

Hi Michael,


That is totally awesome. 

[Dave in Tenn]

Could it be that what Satan 'pretends to be' is not "an angel", but "an angel of LIGHT."?  Just trying to read all the words.  I'm not so sure, either, that he is 'pretending' to be anything.  Maybe 'transforms himself' means 'pretending'--maybe not.

I agree with Micah's post earlier.  The most helpful thing for me has been to read "messenger" when I encounter the word "angel" and let the context and description 'define' what kind of angel it's talking about.  That works better than assuming I know what an angel is and trying to squeeze that 'understanding' into what's being said.   

[Gina]

Satan is transforming himself into an angel of light, is how it is translated. 

He is not an angel of light, or an angel or messenger at all as far as I can see, and not everyone agrees that Satan means angel or messenger.

(Does Strong's translate Satan as angel/messenger?  I couldn't figure it out.)

I think there are going to be many disagreements regarding Satan's classification here, but from the verses I've seen, Satan is an adversary and is a destroyer and a crooked serpent, who transforms himself to appear as an "angel of light."

Here's why I say this:
 
1 Peter 1:10  from the Concordant Literal

[Nah, scratch that --not gonna put it here -- confusing to me and maybe a few others.]

1 Peter 1 English Standard Version

10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. 12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

From a bible commentary:

The verb παρακύψαι means "to stoop sideways;" it is used of persons standing outside a place who stoop in order to look in. "The παρά of the verb," says Huther, "indicates that the angels stand outside the work of redemption, inasmuch as it is not for them, but for man (cf. Hebrews 2:16)." The same verb occurs in James 1:25; John 20:5, 11; Luke 24:12, in which last place it is used of Peter himself, when he stooped to look into the empty sepulcher on the morning of the Lord's resurrection. St. Paul has a similar thought in Ephesians 3:10, "His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms," The attitude of the golden cherubim, whose wings covered the mercy-seat and whose faces were toward it (Exodus 25:20), seems to imply the same rapt, reverent attention.

Putting reverent [ feeling or showing deep and solemn respect] and Satan in the same sentence seems rather strange to me.  I don't see Satan yearning to look or stooping sideways to look; and unlike angels (ministering angels?) who, according to the above, stand outside the work of redemption inasmuch as it is not for them, but man, Satan plays an active role in our salvation.  And besides, Satan and his "angels" are going into the purifying Lake of Fire / Second Death, inasmuch Jesus came to undo the works of the devil. 

So, as far as I can see, Satan is not an angel or an angel of light.  He's a destroyer/adversary. 

Job 2:1

Again there was a day when the sons of God (some versions say "angels," others say "members of the heavenly court," and another says "divine beings" and Concordant calls them the "sons of Elohim") came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD.

It's like, I can see a very clear distinction between "the sons of God/angels/divine beings" who came to present themselves before the Lord and ... Satan came among them.  And it's funny because God's all... Where did you come from, Satan?  (as if God didn't know).  Satan was roaming the earth and walking around in it.  Do those angels that some have entertained unawares, also roam the earth and walk around in it (seeking whom they may devour")?

Is Satan a "son of God"?  Is he "divine"?   

[Kat]

Hi Gina, I am beginning to see your point, that 'angels' are God's servants. So to try to find just how angel is referred to in Scripture I scanned through all of the times the word angel/angels in used in the NKJV... what I found is that in 'every' case in the OT it is speaking of a angel/messenger of God. Now in the NT here are the exceptions of angels not spoken of as from God.

2Peter 2:4  For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

Jude 1:6  And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

Rev 12:7  And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,

Rev 12:9  So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Okay this is interesting because in the article 23 Mins in Hell Ray explain that in all of these cases it is speaking of 'human' messenger, not spirit beings. Now there is one more verse and I will not try to interpret what the meaning of what Paul is saying here is.

1Co 6:3  Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?

So if angels are God's Holy servants from His throne, and a few times refer to human beings... well what about the wicked spirits and demons (I did not include a search for demons, as I believe that is self explanatory)? But here is what I found in a search of the word "spirit"... now there are numerous times that word is used in reference to the Holy Spirit, and to the spirit/breath of life in a person and the spirit/disposition of a person. What I have listed here is all the places where I could make out from the context and the use of the word that it was speaking of a 'spirit being.'

Mark 1:26  And when the unclean spirit had convulsed him and cried out with a loud voice, he came out of him.
 
Mark 5:8  For He said to him,  "Come out of the man, unclean spirit!"

Mark 9:17  Then one of the crowd answered and said, "Teacher, I brought You my son, who has a mute spirit.

Mark 9:20  Then they brought him to Him. And when he saw Him, immediately the spirit convulsed him, and he fell on the ground and wallowed, foaming at the mouth.

Mark 9:25  When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him and enter him no more!"

Luke 4:33  Now in the synagogue there was a man who had a spirit of an unclean demon. And he cried out with a loud voice,

Luke 8:29  For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man...

Luke 9:39  And behold, a spirit seizes him, and he suddenly cries out; it convulses him so that he foams at the mouth; and it departs from him with great difficulty, bruising him.

Luke 9:42  And as he was still coming, the demon threw him down and convulsed him. Then Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, healed the child, and gave him back to his father.

Luke 11:24  "When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.'

Luke 13:11  And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent over and could in no way raise herself up.

Acts 16:18  And this she did for many days. But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her." And he came out that very hour.

Acts 19:16  Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

Also I want to add that Christ actually used the word "spirit" when casting them out of a person on 3 of those occasions. Also after His resurrection when He appeared to his disciples where they were gathered and all of them had not seen Him yet, so they seemed afraid about what He was, He told them He was not just a spirit...

Luke 24:37  But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
v. 38  And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
v. 39  Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."

There is also one Scripture that shows that there is a difference in "a spirit" and "an angel" by referring to them both in the same sentence.

Acts 23:9  Then there arose a loud outcry. And the scribes of the Pharisees' party arose and protested, saying, "We find no evil in this man; but if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him, let us not fight against God."

So that is what I have found, I think this is all very interesting, explains a lot.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Gina]

Hi Gina, I am beginning to see your point, that 'angels' are God's servants. So to try to find just how angel is referred to in Scripture I scanned through all of the times the word angel/angels in used in the NKJV... what I found is that in 'every' case in the OT it is speaking of a angel/messenger of God. Now in the NT here are the exceptions of angels not spoken of as from God.

2Peter 2:4  For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

Jude 1:6  And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

Rev 12:7  And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,

Rev 12:9  So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Okay this is interesting because in the article 23 Mins in Hell Ray explain that in all of these cases it is speaking of 'human' messenger, not spirit beings. Now there is one more verse and I will not try to interpret what the meaning of what Paul is saying here is.

1Co 6:3  Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?

So if angels are God's Holy servants from His throne, and a few times refer to human beings... well what about the wicked spirits and demons (I did not include a search for demons, as I believe that is self explanatory)? But here is what I found in a search of the word "spirit"... now there are numerous times that word is used in reference to the Holy Spirit, and to the spirit/breath of life in a person and the spirit/disposition of a person. What I have listed here is all the places where I could make out from the context and the use of the word that it was speaking of a 'spirit being.'

Mark 1:26  And when the unclean spirit had convulsed him and cried out with a loud voice, he came out of him.
 
Mark 5:8  For He said to him,  "Come out of the man, unclean spirit!"

Mark 9:17  Then one of the crowd answered and said, "Teacher, I brought You my son, who has a mute spirit.

Mark 9:20  Then they brought him to Him. And when he saw Him, immediately the spirit convulsed him, and he fell on the ground and wallowed, foaming at the mouth.

Mark 9:25  When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him and enter him no more!"

Luke 4:33  Now in the synagogue there was a man who had a spirit of an unclean demon. And he cried out with a loud voice,

Luke 8:29  For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man...

Luke 9:39  And behold, a spirit seizes him, and he suddenly cries out; it convulses him so that he foams at the mouth; and it departs from him with great difficulty, bruising him.

Luke 9:42  And as he was still coming, the demon threw him down and convulsed him. Then Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, healed the child, and gave him back to his father.

Luke 11:24  "When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.'

Luke 13:11  And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent over and could in no way raise herself up.

Acts 16:18  And this she did for many days. But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her." And he came out that very hour.

Acts 19:16  Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

Also I want to add that Christ actually used the word "spirit" when casting them out of a person on 3 of those occasions. Also after His resurrection when He appeared to his disciples where they were gathered and all of them had not seen Him yet, so they seemed afraid about what He was, He told them He was not just a spirit...

Luke 24:37  But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
v. 38  And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
v. 39  Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."

There is also one Scripture that shows that there is a difference in "a spirit" and "an angel" by referring to them both in the same sentence.

Acts 23:9  Then there arose a loud outcry. And the scribes of the Pharisees' party arose and protested, saying, "We find no evil in this man; but if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him, let us not fight against God."

So that is what I have found, I think this is all very interesting, explains a lot.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Thanks for gathering that.  There's a lot there to consider - I can't really grasp it all right now.  I'm going to pray about it. 

[Kat]

Hi Gina,

I thought I would just let the Scripture speak for itself. But I will say what I observed from the search... that where 'angels' were spoken of as spirit beings in both the OT and the NT, it was always speaking of God's servants. There were those few exceptions that I mentioned, but Ray had explained those 'angels' were pastors, human beings... I showed that in the post with the excerpt from the 23 mins in hell article.

I also put all those scripture that spoke of the wicked spirit beings. What I found is that when these were spoken of it was always as 'a spirit,' never as an angel. Even Jesus used the term "a spirit" when speaking of spiritual beings not from God.

So that was my point, as you had mentioned several times that when angels were spoken of in Scripture they were speaking about God's angel/messenger.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[John from Kentucky]

 
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2109.0.html

[2]  Satan is an "angel" which means "messenger" in both Hebrew and Greek (II Cor. 11:14).

The above is a direct quote from Ray Smith.  But to listen to some of the scriptural scholars and teachers among us, I guess Ray is wrong.  Oh well, what can you expect from a mere roofer.   

I thought one reason for this Forum was to discuss the scriptural understandings of Ray Smith. 



People like to say they appreciate the teachings of Ray.  They like to say they know and believe in the Scriptures.  They like to say how much they love people, and how humble they are, and how good they are.

One thing I learned from Ray, and Jesus, and the Spirit of God.  Most people, the Many, are full of spiritual crap, and they do not like it when they are exposed. 

[Kat]

John I certainly respect what Ray taught to a great degree, always have. Now just as Ray did, we are trying to get to the truth of a matter... did Ray have 'all' truth? Did Ray even put all the understanding that he knew in his articles?

If we are always standing behind Ray, how can we see Christ? We should be standing with Ray and as he never ceased to search the Scripture, so should we. Here is the verse in question, does it say Satan is an angel...

2Cor 11:14  And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms(G3345) himself into an angel of light.

G3345 metaschēmatizō
to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self).

Disguise - 1. to change the appearance of to conceal the identity or to resemble another. 2. To hide by a counterfeit appearance;

This is not even saying that Satan is an angel, but is disguised as one, and we do have Scripture that calls Satan "a spirit."

Eph 2:2  in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

Now I don't know if Ray studied this aspect of what we are talking about, but regardless we can and should, and this is what I found and have shown it here to help in this study. This is a very small part of the study on this matter and certainly did not discredit Ray in any way.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Gina]

Hi Gina,

I thought I would just let the Scripture speak for itself. But I will say what I observed from the search... that where 'angels' were spoken of as spirit beings in both the OT and the NT, it was always speaking of God's servants. There were those few excepts that I mentioned, but Ray had explained those 'angels' were Pastors, human beings... I showed that in the post with the excerpt from the 23 mins in hell article.

I also put all those scripture that spoke of the wicked spirit beings. What I found is that when these were spoken of it was always as 'a spirit,' never as an angel. Jesus even used "a spirit" when speaking of a spiritual being not from God.

So that was my point, as you had mentioned several times that when angels were spoken of in Scripture they were speaking about God's angel/messenger.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Now it's coming clearer.  Thanks, Kat.   That is interesting that the wicked spirits were only referred to as spirits not angels. 

Remember when Jesus came walking on the water to the disciples.  They though they saw a ghost/spirit (can't see spirit) and they were very afraid:

"It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear."  But it was not a spirit or a ghost. It was Jesus and Jesus said, to his disciples:  It's Me, relax.  He doesn't want his disciples to live in fear.

Whereas what I noticed now is that, in every instance where Jesus cast out demons in the people who were oppressed of Satan, the spirits always seemed to be trembling in fear; even the legion demons who spoke to Jesus seemed to be very afraid of Jesus:  What do you want with us, Son of God?  Have you come to torment us before the time? Matt. 8:29 As if a Lamb who takes way the sin of the world really is a torment.  They lie so much.

God does not give to us a spirit of fear.

But the timid/cowards, etc., will be cast into the Lake of Fire.  Makes me wonder what Satan this "prince" is really all about.  Sounds like big scaredy cat to me.  :-D


Jesus said that there was coming a day when he would plainly tell his disciples what the heck was going on.  And He did and Paul heard him clearly too.

1 Timothy 4:1 The HOLY Spirit clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the
 faith [ the plain and clear and simple teaching of Christ ], paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines [CONFUSING teachings] of demons.  That's why that man among the tombs was so out of his mind  --  he was totally confused and fearful having paid any attention to a spirit that teaches you to be fearful and afraid.

That's the way I see it.  I'm sure there's more and maybe I should just keep my mouth shut and let scripture also speak for itself, but you know...  this stuff is interesting and maybe it'll be of help to someone?

[John from Kentucky]

John I certainly respect what Ray taught to a great degree, always have. Now just as Ray did, we are trying to get to the truth of a matter... did Ray have 'all' truth? Did Ray even put all the understanding that he knew in his articles?

If we are always standing behind Ray, how can we see Christ? We should be standing with Ray and as he never ceased to search the Scripture, so should we. Here is the verse in question, does it say Satan is an angel...

2Cor 11:14  And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms(G3345) himself into an angel of light.

G3345 metaschēmatizō
to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self).

Disguise - 1. to change the appearance of to conceal the identity or to resemble another. 2. To hide by a counterfeit appearance;

This is not even saying that Satan is an angel, but is disguised as one, and we do have Scripture that calls Satan "a spirit."

Eph 2:2  in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

Now I don't know if Ray studied the aspect of this that we are talking about, but regardless we can and should, and this is what I found and have shown it here to help in this study. This is a very small part of the study on this matter and certainly did not discredit Ray in any way.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Kat,

This whole question is a minor point and not really worth a great deal of discussion.

I do not agree with Ray on 100% (maybe 98% ) of his teachings, but in this one I'll stick with old Ray the roofer.

As Dave mentioned in his above post, Satan poses as an angel of light, with the emphasis on light.

Satan poses as an angel(messenger) of light.

When actually Satan is an angel(messenger) of darkness.

And as Ray further expounds in item (2) of his email that I quoted, the angels will not be over the ages to come, but the children of God will be over the future ages.

Now, evil spirit angels are over the present world.  Satan is prince over those forces.  And as Jesus' temptation in the desert showed, Satan has the power to bestow the riches and the power of this world (age) on whom he wishes (within the bounds set on him by God).

The Scriptures reveal that there is God.  That there is humankind.  And higher than humankind but below God, there are billions (?) of spirit beings, both good and evil, generically called angels in the translations, whom God has given various things to do, both good and evil.  There is more that we don't know than what we do know about these angelic spirit beings.

Now I'll get off so some can hurl the brick bats at me and accuse me of evil things, and not being loving, not being humble, etc., etc., etc.  What fun! 

Maybe this will help, I've seen others do it,

JFK,

Your loving, humble brother in Christ, in the Holy City of New Jerusalem, Macedonian, Berean, Maranatha, in the Holy Ghost, did I say humble?, yada, yada, yoda, and yogi----Amen and Amen

[Gina]

Kat,

Here's another thing:

1 Peter 5:7 casting all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you. 8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert.  Your adversary, the devil, prowls around as a roaring lion....

Concordant says:   8 Be sober! Watch! For your plaintiff* the Adversary, is walking about as a roaring lion..."


*Plaintiff:  Synonym accuser/complainant/complainer/complaining person

Definition:  one who expresses dissatisfaction, pain, uneasiness, censure (I've been confusing censure with censorship - two different things - whoops!), resentment, or grief; finding fault (as Satan wanted so badly to find fault with Job),

Disguised as an angel of "light"  Someone of the light has great heavenly wisdom and understanding:

"But, if You ever removed the hedge around Job, he'd curse You to Your face ..."   

That was yet another prophetic lie (you will not surely die!), for which Satan must die...isn't that how it goes?  If someone prophesies and their prophesy fails, that's a false prophet and they have to die? Or something like that?

  

[Dave in Tenn]

G3345
μετασχηματίζω
metaschēmatizō
Total KJV Occurrences: 6
transformed, 2
2Co_11:14-15 (2)
change, 1
Phi_3:21
figure, 1
1Co_4:6
transferred, 1
1Co_4:6

Just to get at the meaning of this word, though it's difficult here.

1Co 4:6  And these things, brethren, I did transfer to myself and to Apollos because of you, that in us ye may learn not to think above that which hath been written, that ye may not be puffed up one for one against the other.


2Co 11:13  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

These refer largely back to vs. 4
 
2Co 11:4  For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted...

Sounds like most of my time in the synagogue of satan.
 

[Dave in Tenn]

Here's a testimony.  It did me a lot of good to do that little study--and not just for the sake of the 'topic' at hand--as it forced me to look deeper (and again) into 2 Cor. 11  It's strange how that seems to work over and over again.

I'll spare you the sermon from the above.  You'll either need it or you won't.  I did.  You'll either see it or you won't, and if you see it, you'll either obey it or you won't.  The jury is still out on me on that score.

[Mike Gagne]

I get ya Dave!

Heard a few ministers of satan speak myself, in a few synagogues of satan...

[Gina]

Masquerade and disguise fits this better in my humble opinion.  Satan wears a mask and a disguise.  He's not the scary demon.  He's the pussycat.
 
Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"

You see that?  He acts like the commands of God are mere statements.  "Has God said, you shall NOT eat from any tree...?

But God, I believe, was instructing/commanding them this way :

"From every tree of the garden, you are to [surely] eat, yea, eat. 17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall [must] you be dying.

(God wasn't just pleasantly offering them some of his food to eat, he was saying, eat it! Is how I see it.  You know, because it was good, and God wants His children have good food.)

And Eve said to the serpent (and try to see if you can hear a tone in her voice):

"From the fruit of the trees of the garden we are eating, 3 yet from the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, the Elohim says, `Not eat of it shall you, and not touch it shall you, lest* you be dying.'"

Is that what God said? 

God said:  From every tree of the garden, you are to [surely] eat, yea, eat. 17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.,

Eve said "lest" you be dying.  Do you know what the word lest means:  "because of the possibility of something undesirable happening,"  Wow!  As if it was only a possibility.  She didn't understand.

Then, she left out the part about "in the day you eat from it."  I guess she forgot all about that. 

I don't know -- the way she spoke about what God commanded her, she was funny - in a not so funny kinda way.  She made it sound like eating from the trees in the garden was a boring chore or something, like she was so fed up (pun intended) "from the fruit of the trees we are eating."  Sounds heavenly.....  not.

From what I can see, her attitude was not one of appreciation or love and respect for what her Creator was giving them, is the feeling I'm getting.  But I don't know.  I'm not faulting her -- I know if I was there, I'd have done the same thing.

[John from Kentucky]

Here is a little something Ray had to say about 2Cor. 11

Devil and Angels?
« on: November 28, 2008, 08:30:34 PM »
    I read alot of your materials and I pretty much agree with everything I have read so far.  But one verse has been troubling me and I cant seem to put it together and that is Mathew 25:41.
     
    "Prepared for the devil and his angels"?  Could you please expound on this verse a little further as this is a difficult one for me in light of your teachings.
     
    Thanks, Mike.
     

    Dear Mike:  In Scripture, angels, messengers, and ministers are used interchangeably.

    Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels [#32] spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

    Greek: #32, aggelos, From aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication a PASTOR: - angel, messenger. (Strong's Concordance).

    Now then, notice what Paul says concerning Satan and his "ministers"--

    2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

    2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his MINISTERS also be transformed as the MINISTERS of righteousness; whose end [eonian/gehenna/hell/lake of fire JUDGMENT] shall be according to their works.

    It is the false ministers (the "ministers of righteousness") of Mystery Babylon--The CHURCH, who are to be judged in this "eonian" fire along with their many millions of followers.  See my last Installment:  "The Lake of Fire and the Second Death."

    God be with you,

    Ray

[rick]

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2109.0.html

[2]  Satan is an "angel" which means "messenger" in both Hebrew and Greek (II Cor. 11:14).

The above is a direct quote from Ray Smith.  But to listen to some of the scriptural scholars and teachers among us, I guess Ray is wrong.  Oh well, what can you expect from a mere roofer.   

I thought one reason for this Forum was to discuss the scriptural understandings of Ray Smith. 



People like to say they appreciate the teachings of Ray.  They like to say they know and believe in the Scriptures.  They like to say how much they love people, and how humble they are, and how good they are.

One thing I learned from Ray, and Jesus, and the Spirit of God.  Most people, the Many, are full of spiritual crap, and they do not like it when they are exposed.

Hi John,

I agree with Kat, just wanted you to understand that, Ray explained to all of us about the twelve spiritual truths, did Ray explain these things so we could not advance in knowledge ?

If someone starts talking to us in a direction that leads us away from the truth then we can deal with that lying spirit at the time we discover it.

I wonder how much Ray would of understood  the things of God if he were told not to deviate from the teachings of Christendom ?

I believe you understand John, don’t be afraid to grow in knowledge and truth beyond Ray, he gave us enough to go on and grow, its like Kat said we stand behind Ray, John, but there is something more important than Ray here, and that would be Christ, why hinder the spirit ?

I do commend you for your loyalty to Ray but you know John, your not the only one loyal  to Ray John, but our loyalty should be to Christ and Christ only, if you feel diffident I’ll not argue with you, go for it. 
                           
ct 5:39  However, if it's from God, you won't be able to stop them. You may even discover that you're fighting against God."

You’re a smart man John, in the things of God, no doubt.

Take care John and God bless you.