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The devil made me do it !
Gina:
Satan is transforming himself into an angel of light, is how it is translated.
He is not an angel of light, or an angel or messenger at all as far as I can see, and not everyone agrees that Satan means angel or messenger.
(Does Strong's translate Satan as angel/messenger? I couldn't figure it out.)
I think there are going to be many disagreements regarding Satan's classification here, but from the verses I've seen, Satan is an adversary and is a destroyer and a crooked serpent, who transforms himself to appear as an "angel of light."
Here's why I say this:
1 Peter 1:10 from the Concordant Literal
[Nah, scratch that --not gonna put it here -- confusing to me and maybe a few others.]
1 Peter 1 English Standard Version
10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. 12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.
From a bible commentary:
The verb παρακύψαι means "to stoop sideways;" it is used of persons standing outside a place who stoop in order to look in. "The παρά of the verb," says Huther, "indicates that the angels stand outside the work of redemption, inasmuch as it is not for them, but for man (cf. Hebrews 2:16)." The same verb occurs in James 1:25; John 20:5, 11; Luke 24:12, in which last place it is used of Peter himself, when he stooped to look into the empty sepulcher on the morning of the Lord's resurrection. St. Paul has a similar thought in Ephesians 3:10, "His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms," The attitude of the golden cherubim, whose wings covered the mercy-seat and whose faces were toward it (Exodus 25:20), seems to imply the same rapt, reverent attention.
Putting reverent [ feeling or showing deep and solemn respect] and Satan in the same sentence seems rather strange to me. I don't see Satan yearning to look or stooping sideways to look; and unlike angels (ministering angels?) who, according to the above, stand outside the work of redemption inasmuch as it is not for them, but man, Satan plays an active role in our salvation. And besides, Satan and his "angels" are going into the purifying Lake of Fire / Second Death, inasmuch Jesus came to undo the works of the devil.
So, as far as I can see, Satan is not an angel or an angel of light. He's a destroyer/adversary.
Job 2:1
Again there was a day when the sons of God (some versions say "angels," others say "members of the heavenly court," and another says "divine beings" and Concordant calls them the "sons of Elohim") came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD.
It's like, I can see a very clear distinction between "the sons of God/angels/divine beings" who came to present themselves before the Lord and ... Satan came among them. And it's funny because God's all... Where did you come from, Satan? (as if God didn't know). Satan was roaming the earth and walking around in it. Do those angels that some have entertained unawares, also roam the earth and walk around in it (seeking whom they may devour")?
Is Satan a "son of God"? Is he "divine"?
Kat:
Hi Gina, I am beginning to see your point, that 'angels' are God's servants. So to try to find just how angel is referred to in Scripture I scanned through all of the times the word angel/angels in used in the NKJV... what I found is that in 'every' case in the OT it is speaking of a angel/messenger of God. Now in the NT here are the exceptions of angels not spoken of as from God.
2Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
Rev 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
Rev 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Okay this is interesting because in the article 23 Mins in Hell Ray explain that in all of these cases it is speaking of 'human' messenger, not spirit beings. Now there is one more verse and I will not try to interpret what the meaning of what Paul is saying here is.
1Co 6:3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?
So if angels are God's Holy servants from His throne, and a few times refer to human beings... well what about the wicked spirits and demons (I did not include a search for demons, as I believe that is self explanatory)? But here is what I found in a search of the word "spirit"... now there are numerous times that word is used in reference to the Holy Spirit, and to the spirit/breath of life in a person and the spirit/disposition of a person. What I have listed here is all the places where I could make out from the context and the use of the word that it was speaking of a 'spirit being.'
Mark 1:26 And when the unclean spirit had convulsed him and cried out with a loud voice, he came out of him.
Mark 5:8 For He said to him, "Come out of the man, unclean spirit!"
Mark 9:17 Then one of the crowd answered and said, "Teacher, I brought You my son, who has a mute spirit.
Mark 9:20 Then they brought him to Him. And when he saw Him, immediately the spirit convulsed him, and he fell on the ground and wallowed, foaming at the mouth.
Mark 9:25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him and enter him no more!"
Luke 4:33 Now in the synagogue there was a man who had a spirit of an unclean demon. And he cried out with a loud voice,
Luke 8:29 For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man...
Luke 9:39 And behold, a spirit seizes him, and he suddenly cries out; it convulses him so that he foams at the mouth; and it departs from him with great difficulty, bruising him.
Luke 9:42 And as he was still coming, the demon threw him down and convulsed him. Then Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, healed the child, and gave him back to his father.
Luke 11:24 "When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.'
Luke 13:11 And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent over and could in no way raise herself up.
Acts 16:18 And this she did for many days. But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her." And he came out that very hour.
Acts 19:16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
Also I want to add that Christ actually used the word "spirit" when casting them out of a person on 3 of those occasions. Also after His resurrection when He appeared to his disciples where they were gathered and all of them had not seen Him yet, so they seemed afraid about what He was, He told them He was not just a spirit...
Luke 24:37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
v. 38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
v. 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
There is also one Scripture that shows that there is a difference in "a spirit" and "an angel" by referring to them both in the same sentence.
Acts 23:9 Then there arose a loud outcry. And the scribes of the Pharisees' party arose and protested, saying, "We find no evil in this man; but if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him, let us not fight against God."
So that is what I have found, I think this is all very interesting, explains a lot.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Gina:
--- Quote from: Kat on July 22, 2015, 08:24:32 AM ---
Hi Gina, I am beginning to see your point, that 'angels' are God's servants. So to try to find just how angel is referred to in Scripture I scanned through all of the times the word angel/angels in used in the NKJV... what I found is that in 'every' case in the OT it is speaking of a angel/messenger of God. Now in the NT here are the exceptions of angels not spoken of as from God.
2Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
Rev 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
Rev 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Okay this is interesting because in the article 23 Mins in Hell Ray explain that in all of these cases it is speaking of 'human' messenger, not spirit beings. Now there is one more verse and I will not try to interpret what the meaning of what Paul is saying here is.
1Co 6:3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?
So if angels are God's Holy servants from His throne, and a few times refer to human beings... well what about the wicked spirits and demons (I did not include a search for demons, as I believe that is self explanatory)? But here is what I found in a search of the word "spirit"... now there are numerous times that word is used in reference to the Holy Spirit, and to the spirit/breath of life in a person and the spirit/disposition of a person. What I have listed here is all the places where I could make out from the context and the use of the word that it was speaking of a 'spirit being.'
Mark 1:26 And when the unclean spirit had convulsed him and cried out with a loud voice, he came out of him.
Mark 5:8 For He said to him, "Come out of the man, unclean spirit!"
Mark 9:17 Then one of the crowd answered and said, "Teacher, I brought You my son, who has a mute spirit.
Mark 9:20 Then they brought him to Him. And when he saw Him, immediately the spirit convulsed him, and he fell on the ground and wallowed, foaming at the mouth.
Mark 9:25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him and enter him no more!"
Luke 4:33 Now in the synagogue there was a man who had a spirit of an unclean demon. And he cried out with a loud voice,
Luke 8:29 For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man...
Luke 9:39 And behold, a spirit seizes him, and he suddenly cries out; it convulses him so that he foams at the mouth; and it departs from him with great difficulty, bruising him.
Luke 9:42 And as he was still coming, the demon threw him down and convulsed him. Then Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, healed the child, and gave him back to his father.
Luke 11:24 "When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.'
Luke 13:11 And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent over and could in no way raise herself up.
Acts 16:18 And this she did for many days. But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her." And he came out that very hour.
Acts 19:16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
Also I want to add that Christ actually used the word "spirit" when casting them out of a person on 3 of those occasions. Also after His resurrection when He appeared to his disciples where they were gathered and all of them had not seen Him yet, so they seemed afraid about what He was, He told them He was not just a spirit...
Luke 24:37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
v. 38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
v. 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
There is also one Scripture that shows that there is a difference in "a spirit" and "an angel" by referring to them both in the same sentence.
Acts 23:9 Then there arose a loud outcry. And the scribes of the Pharisees' party arose and protested, saying, "We find no evil in this man; but if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him, let us not fight against God."
So that is what I have found, I think this is all very interesting, explains a lot.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Thanks for gathering that. There's a lot there to consider - I can't really grasp it all right now. I'm going to pray about it.
:)
Kat:
Hi Gina,
I thought I would just let the Scripture speak for itself. But I will say what I observed from the search... that where 'angels' were spoken of as spirit beings in both the OT and the NT, it was always speaking of God's servants. There were those few exceptions that I mentioned, but Ray had explained those 'angels' were pastors, human beings... I showed that in the post with the excerpt from the 23 mins in hell article.
I also put all those scripture that spoke of the wicked spirit beings. What I found is that when these were spoken of it was always as 'a spirit,' never as an angel. Even Jesus used the term "a spirit" when speaking of spiritual beings not from God.
So that was my point, as you had mentioned several times that when angels were spoken of in Scripture they were speaking about God's angel/messenger.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
John from Kentucky:
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2109.0.html
[2] Satan is an "angel" which means "messenger" in both Hebrew and Greek (II Cor. 11:14).
The above is a direct quote from Ray Smith. But to listen to some of the scriptural scholars and teachers among us, I guess Ray is wrong. Oh well, what can you expect from a mere roofer. ;D
I thought one reason for this Forum was to discuss the scriptural understandings of Ray Smith. ???
People like to say they appreciate the teachings of Ray. They like to say they know and believe in the Scriptures. They like to say how much they love people, and how humble they are, and how good they are.
One thing I learned from Ray, and Jesus, and the Spirit of God. Most people, the Many, are full of spiritual crap, and they do not like it when they are exposed.
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