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Author Topic: I will pour out My spirit on all flesh...  (Read 20918 times)

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rick

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Re: I will pour out My spirit on all flesh...
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2015, 09:40:25 PM »



Perhaps, but if that is the case, the scriptures already speak of a first ressurection, and its the ressurection of the elect which pertains to a yet future event






I agree with you Alex but it’s the only thing I could think of that would in someway vindicate Ian from straying from scripture. If he is looking at it from the point of view I suggested , then that would make sense why he thinks the first resurrection has already taken place but only in the sense I mentioned .

But there were people back in Paul’s day who claimed the resurrection has already happen and here is what scripture says about it below.

Ti 2:18  men who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already, and overthrow the faith of some.
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indianabob

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Re: I will pour out My spirit on all flesh...
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2015, 11:49:10 PM »

Hey Gents and Ladies,
I'm getting a little confused at your confusion, if that is what it is. ???

When Father God calls us we receive "an earnest" of the spirit of God to help us to begin to understand and to pique our curiosity. At that point, Father God has given us to Christ to work with through the operation of the holy spirit in our lives. It is an earnest, a sign, the promise of future work to be done in us. It is just a tiny little bit of God's spirit.
Only Jesus the son of God had the holy spirit in full measure...
Jesus said that none of those that Father God gives to Jesus will he in any way lose.
So to me that indicates a work that is being done in us by Christ until it is finished.

It is not finished until we die, physically!
During this whole time that Jesus is working in us and on us we continue to sin...
We are flesh and blood we cannot resist sin perfectly, PERIOD!
AND we certainly have come short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23

So we die; then, in our next conscious moment we will be resurrected at Jesus' return.
It is at that moment and not sooner that we are given our spirit composed body.
It is from that moment on that we are free from sin.
It is a gift, a miracle of God through HIS spirit and not based upon anything we have done.
God has not called only those that God believes have a reasonable chance of making it into His Kingdom as elect leaders and servants of everyone else.
No, God has called the scum of the earth humanly speaking, the bottom of the barrel so to speak, those that need a lot of work to improve even a little.
God is going to show HIS glory by the miracle he will do in each of our lives, by making a useful vessel out of plain clay (dirt).

Everyone else will be dealt with later according to God's perfect plan.


Romans 8:23
Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

2 Corinthians 5:5
Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Ephesians 1:14
who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.
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Mike Gagne

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Re: I will pour out My spirit on all flesh...
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2015, 01:38:35 AM »

Nicely said indianaBob, I agree. When Jesus is done his work then you probably wont live much longer and you will die physically and your next moment of consciousness will be in a glorified spiritual body. There seems to be some that think there knowledge will get them to where they think there going! Its like you said its the scum of the earth....


1Co 1:26  For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27  But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28  And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29  That no flesh should glory in his presence.

lest we think we are greater than anyone here!...

1 Corinthians 4:6-8   (KJV)

6  And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
7  For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

1Co 10:12  Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

In Christ
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Ian 155

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Re: I will pour out My spirit on all flesh...
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2015, 07:36:05 AM »

I refer to things spiritual... it is difficult when writing to express exactly what one is trying to say. That is due to different minds which interpret statements and words differently,ye even verses.

If you are and perceive this DAY as a literal day and the clouds as literal clouds then so be it


I am positive that the person who "doesn't know what I am on about" may not, for the following verses and the persons who do know, do so for the 2nd half of the verse below.(if that does come across as arrogant it is not meant with an arrogant heart)

Mat 13:15 For stoutened is the heart of this people, And with their ears heavily they hear, And with their eyes they squint, Lest at some time they may be perceiving with their eyes, And with their ears should be hearing, And with their heart may be understanding, And should be turning about, And I shall be healing them.'"

Mat 13:16 Yet happy are your eyes, for they are observing, and your ears, for they are hearing."
Mat 13:17 For verily I am saying to you that many prophets and just men yearn to perceive what you are observing, and perceive not, and to hear what you are hearing, and hear not."

some of the verses that changed my mindset from the DAY theories please note this is how I see these scriptures, so take care as i may as i often have,be wrong in which case i am man enough to repent openly

Pertaining to the DAY of the Lord

Mat 24:5 For many shall be coming in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ!' and shall be deceiving many." This is happening has happened and will happen that is many say, Jesus is Lord/the Christ

Mat 24:6 Yet you shall be about to be hearing battles, and tidings of battles. See that you are not alarmed, for it must be occurring; but not as yet is the consummation."

and this spiritually in us there is a huge war and wars re the scriptures and the understanding of them

Mat 24:7 For roused shall be a nation against a nation, and a kingdom against a kingdom, and there shall be famines and quakes in places."

do your own families rise against you ? are you not getting sufficient understanding of the word (famine) are you sometimes jolted to your core when you perceive a new meaning of scripture ?

Just a small interjection... did you notice the earthquake at the cross, actually interfered with the soldiers belief system and caused him to say "Surely this was the son of God"

Mat 24:8 Yet all these are the beginning of pangs.

if so  this is the beginning of christ becoming you


Mat 24:9 Then shall they be giving you up to affliction, and they shall be killing you, and you shall be hated by all of the nations because of My name."

affliction ? what dat ? do they kill you with their words?do they scorn you when you speak of your interpretation ? are you hated by them and there is no physical rationale or reason you can place your finger on ?

Mat 24:10 And then many shall be snared, and they shall be giving one another up and hating one another."

do you really think you would go to physical jail when this happens ?

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall be roused, and shall be deceiving many."

Look on tv and the internet even better is a good look in "you"

Mat 24:12 And, because of the multiplication of lawlessness, the love of many shall be cooling."

what do you see lawlessness as ? running a red light ?

Mat 24:13 Yet he who endures to the consummation, he shall be saved."
how do we endure the relentless trials we face ? "we shall overcome",or "they overcame"

Mat 24:14 And heralded shall be this evangel of the kingdom in the whole inhabited earth for a testimony to all the nations, and then the consummation shall be arriving."

is the earth the globe ? is it you ? will you be a testimony ? or could it be the understanding of the cross and once understood, the consummation of all you know will be apparent, all you have been taught will come together

Mat 24:15 Whenever, then, you may be perceiving the abomination of desolation, which is declared through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who is reading apprehend!);"Like Ray said you can know.... was daniel really in the holy place?was he able to write so it is apparent to all?

Mat 24:16 then let those in Judea flee into the mountains. what does judea stand for/represent ? what is a mountain ?

Mat 24:17 Let him who is on the housetop not descend to take away the things out of his house.
Really, a physical house, removing Physical furniture and clothing ?

Mat 24:18 And let him who is in the field not turn back behind him to pick up his cloak.
what cloak does a farm labourer wear ?

Mat 24:19 Now woe to those who are pregnant and those suckling in those days!"
pregnant with who ? feeding who ?

Mat 24:20 Now be praying that your flight may not be occurring in winter, nor yet on a sabbath,
fight 274 departing in winter on Saturday ?

Mat 24:21 for then shall be great affliction, such as has not occurred from the beginning of the world till now; neither under any circumstances may be occurring." when is ones beginning and is "Till now"  a lie ?

Mat 24:22 And, except those days were discounted, no flesh at all would be saved. Yet, because of the chosen, those days shall be discounted." who is the chosen one ?

Are His words spirit and does the spiritual understanding bring one life and peace? well if so then i have more news

Heb 12:26  Whose voice then moved the earth; but now he promiseth, saying: Yet once more: and I will move, not only the earth, but heaven also.

so it seems even heavenly understanding will be moved 

such is purification ...


1Co 15:51 Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed,
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Ian 155

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Re: I will pour out My spirit on all flesh...
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2015, 07:57:05 AM »

Well I'm not entirely sure what Ian is going on about with the "future day/ eon" concept but the scriptures certainly speak of a comming ressurection of the dead,


Hi Alex,

Everyone is born spiritually dead in this life so God the Father would need to quicken ones spirit in order for one to follow Christ.

Maybe Ian is seeing that as the first resurrection, which in a way it could be look at in that way.

Being spiritually dead to spiritually alive. Maybe that’s what Ian is saying.


is there a "Like" button ?
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Ian 155

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Re: I will pour out My spirit on all flesh...
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2015, 10:32:48 AM »

Well I'm not entirely sure what Ian is going on about with the "future day/ eon" concept but the scriptures certainly speak of a comming ressurection of the dead, a day of judgment for the world, and a day when we ourselves will finally recieve our awaited change and birth into the kingdom of God. My scriptures serve to supplement what Kat has already shared.

You have gone off the subject but for interest sake  I will comment on your understanding with my understanding  hope you do the same

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
pray show me a second witness to what you think this verse means

nevermind you wont find one

1 Corinthians 15:12-18
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?  I d like to know too
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: makes sence
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. makes more sense
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. yep
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:mmmm
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Scary
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. What does he mean by ALSO ?

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1 Corinthians 15:50-52
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. yeah correct carnal minds cannot
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,so will we all sleep or wont we ?
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.And what is this trumpet? i think Ray said its a "warning" a huge one a final one

Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Yes we are CALLED son's of God but we have not attained all that which being called such entails.

Isa 9:6  For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us....

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and CALLS those things which be NOT as though they were.

give us your explanation ...

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
When is it that He does appear ?
Philippians 3:8-14
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, Has this happened to you yet ?
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: so its not up to us ?
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; do you know the power of HIS resurrection ?
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

dead as in no air or dead as in no spirit ?

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, IF that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:18-23
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. like im saying is shall referring to after we sleep ?
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. when is now ?
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. oh Is it our physical body that is resurrected ? with a spiritual twist

Let anyone who trembles at the Word of God never forget that it is the SUM of the Word that is truth and in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Let Jesus plain words make this matter clear and final:

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

If you're still alive kicking and screaming and suffering then you havn't endured unto the end yet. We are still not there! You have not yet been saved.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

We havn't over come yet, we are still fighting the good fight. Fight unto the end as Paul layed out the example and Christ before Him. Paul seems to differ he said "I have run the race",he further said (perhaps he was being arrogant ) I know there awaits a wreath for me - to my understanding ya don't get a wreath if you don't run da race

When you are finally born into the kingdom of God you will know it. You will be powerful and invisible like the wind.   Really?

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
And this means one is gonna be powerful and invisible like the wind ?I was under the impression that the spirit was gentle similar to that of a Dove could this not be literal, but likened too?

Children, sons and daughters of God, with a promise of a glorious future, we are, but we have not yet attained to that which we follow after.

God bless,
Alex

Me thinks there is a huge gap in interpreting the word

perhaps you can comment on the below scriptures ...

Luk 2:26  And he had received an answer from the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death before he had seen the Christ of the Lord.

Mat 16:28  Amen I say to you, there are some of them that stand here, that shall not taste death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Joh 8:52  The Jews therefore said: Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets: and thou sayest: If any man keep my word, he shall not taste death for ever.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was transferred, so as not to be acquainted with death, and was not found, because God transfers him. For before his transference he is attested to have pleased God well."

Joh 3:15 that everyone believing on Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian.



The spirit working in us gives us understanding otherwise we are dead (carnal)perhaps i am
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: I will pour out My spirit on all flesh...
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2015, 12:00:59 PM »

Hi Ian,

I will direct this reply to your last post addressed to myself.

You asked for a second witness to 2 Timoth 2:18 and I gave them to you immediately following. Let me highlight specifically were paul makes it clear the resurrection is future:

1 Cor 15:20-24
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end , when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Then there is 1 Cor 15:50-52 where paul makes it clear it is at the Last trumpet, the 'at his coming.'

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This is exactly what John echoes when He says, "WHEN He shall appear, we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is (1 John 3:2)." This is the "change" paul speaks about. The incorruptible that we put on is not of the physical body as you ask but is a change to the physical to a spiritual one for those who overcome.

1 Corinthians 15:42-49
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:52-54
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So WHEN this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Christ echoed these same thoughts about a day of return when He gathers to Himself the elect:

Matthew 24:30-31
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The very same trumpet paul was speaking of. The last trumpet when He appears and we see Him as He is and the dead are raised.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which SLEEP in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

There is also more of the same in this:

Matthew 24:37-39
37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 21:27-29
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Death has not be swallowed up in victory. Christ has not yet returned. The last trumpet has not yet sounded. The ressurection has not yet occured. We have not yet SEEN Christ with our eyes and be changed into His same form and complete spiritual character. We are currently undergoing a process that will continue until the day we die. We have this "HOPE" and so we purify ourselves because of that beautiful promise that is set out before us.

Philipians 1:6 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Philippians 2:12-16
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Romans 4:17 requires no explenation. It is as paul states that God calls the things which are not as though they were. We are CALLED Sons of God for the very same reason. God see's us for what we will be. Its the very same reason God could die for the sins of the world and all the wicked and perverse people because He see's them for who they will be in Christ.

The spirit is gentle as a dove and powerful enough to bring this entire universe to life with all its awesome displays of natural forces. The same way God is Love but also hated Esau and has stored up wrath for the day against those who would trampled under foot the Son of God.

Now as for paul stating He ran the race faithfully. Here is exactly what paul said:

2 Tim 4:6-8
6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Paul said this because He knew He was about to be offered up as a sacrifice. He knew that the end of his life was upon him. You may be fortunate enough like Paul to know at the end of your life that you have overcome but since none of us is at the end of our lives yet we can't know if this is something every Elect of God will have with certainty in their heart or if it was just given to some very few like Paul and others prior to their being martyred for the gospel's sake. So with that, I leave you to wrestle with these scriptures as you please. Those that are God's cannot be lost. His Word is truth and the scriptures cannot be broken.

There is nothing wrong with looking for the spiritual aspect and the dueality of meaning in the scriptures but it does become a problem when you start contradicting many other plain verses of scripture so that you can keep this new found "spiritual" interpretation.

God be with you,
Alex

P.S. I did not address your final four scriptures you presented as I would rather deal with one concept at a time. We are talking about a future day so I will stick with that. I also have to actually be leaving now and cannot continue my post any further. Perhaps later if God wills I will address the remaining four verses.
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Kat

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Re: I will pour out My spirit on all flesh...
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2015, 05:52:30 PM »


Yes the elect are spiritually raised from spiritual death now in this life, being baptized into His death, then with the earnest of the Spirit they put on the 'new man/woman.'

Rom 6:4  Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
v. 5  For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,

I guess a simple question to you Ian, is do you think there is a literal bodily resurrection for the elect yet to come in the future?

mercy, peace and love
Kathy
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rick

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Re: I will pour out My spirit on all flesh...
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2015, 07:13:59 PM »



I guess a simple question to you Ian, is do you think there is a literal bodily resurrection for the elect yet to come in the future?




Hi Kat,


I don’t wish to become confused by your question to Ian, you had mentioned a bodily resurrection from the grave ?

My understanding from Ray is that God is not going to resurrect our bodies after we die, they are going to decay but what I understood is that God will give everyone a new body.

God’s elect will receive a spiritual body and the rest will receive a new fleshly body. Is this understanding correct ?
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sansmile

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Re: I will pour out My spirit on all flesh...
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2015, 07:44:44 PM »

great thread :)
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Kat

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Re: I will pour out My spirit on all flesh...
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2015, 08:20:53 PM »



I guess a simple question to you Ian, is do you think there is a literal bodily resurrection for the elect yet to come in the future?




Hi Kat,


I don’t wish to become confused by your question to Ian, you had mentioned a bodily resurrection from the grave ?

My understanding from Ray is that God is not going to resurrect our bodies after we die, they are going to decay but what I understood is that God will give everyone a new body.

God’s elect will receive a spiritual body and the rest will receive a new fleshly body. Is this understanding correct ?

Yes Rick, as Ray had said, of course, the elect will be given a new body, I don't think this old body we have now will be much good, especially if it is in the grave for a long time there may not be any of it left...

1Co 15:52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
But if you remember Christ attire His resurrection by to life, He came to the disciples as flesh and blood.

But if you remember Christ after His resurrection back to life, He came to the disciples as flesh and blood and ate something in their presence to prove He was really in a human body and not just a Spirit.

Luke 24:36  Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.”
v. 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
v. 38  And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
v. 39 “Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
v. 40  When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.
v. 41  But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?”
v. 42  So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb.
v. 43  And He took it and ate in their presence.

So when the elect are raised, they will be "like Him" and I think this is one aspect they will share with Christ in that glorious state of being, that they can appear on earth as flesh and blood to the people they will be judging.

1John 3:2  Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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rick

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Re: I will pour out My spirit on all flesh...
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2015, 09:52:57 PM »

Hi Kat,

Thank you for your reply, there is something more about the resurrection that does confuse me, according to Ray’s paper and Eze 37:4

Eze 37:4  Again He said to me, Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, O dry bones, hear the Word of Jehovah.

Eze 37:5  So says the Lord Jehovah to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live.

Eze 37:6  And I will lay sinews on you, and will bring up flesh on you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live. And you shall know that I am Jehovah.

Ezekiel prophecy does sound like God is rebuilding bodies up from the bone to the skin or at least that’s my interpretation of Ezekiel’s prophecy.

I’m understanding these scriptures as the resurrection onto the white throne judgement seeing where God’s elect are in their order before the many.

Could you elaborate further on this subject ?   :-\
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Kat

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Re: I will pour out My spirit on all flesh...
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2015, 11:58:53 PM »


Rick, I'm thinking the valley of dry bones in Ezekiel is speaking of the great white throne resurrection of the rest of the dead too. And I would think those in the resurrection of the rest of the dead would also need to be given new physical bodies too. The resurrection for the rest of the dead would seem to come in order after the 'first' resurrection... if you think about it, the elect will probably have some kind of induction into the kingdom - marriage supper of the Lamb? So maybe there would be a delay after the first resurrection when the elect ascend up to meet Christ in the air, for there to be a marriage supper before the elect to return to earth with Christ.

Rev 21:2  Then I, John,fn saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for afn thousand years.
v. 5  But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished (this first part is spurious). This is the first resurrection.
v. 6  Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: July 26, 2015, 12:04:40 AM by Kat »
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indianabob

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Re: I will pour out My spirit on all flesh...
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2015, 02:30:29 AM »




To KAT in particular;

Comment from Indiana Bob,
"Kat, in the  paragraph below, underlined by me, did you mean to say "flesh and BLOOD" or did you mean flesh and bone as given in scripture??
Just thought we should understand that there may be a difference...

Jesus gave his BLOOD for us and for humans their life is in the blood.
Yet when we are changed in the first resurrection our life will be spirit just as Jesus' is.
We will be immortal and no longer need a circulating blood system.
<subject to correction>
Indiana Bob






I guess a simple question to you Ian, is do you think there is a literal bodily resurrection for the elect yet to come in the future?




Hi Kat,


I don’t wish to become confused by your question to Ian, you had mentioned a bodily resurrection from the grave ?

My understanding from Ray is that God is not going to resurrect our bodies after we die, they are going to decay but what I understood is that God will give everyone a new body.

God’s elect will receive a spiritual body and the rest will receive a new fleshly body. Is this understanding correct ?

Yes Rick, as Ray had said, of course, the elect will be given a new body, I don't think this old body we have now will be much good, especially if it is in the grave for a long time there may not be any of it left...

1Co 15:52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
But if you remember Christ attire His resurrection by to life, He came to the disciples as flesh and blood.

But if you remember Christ after His resurrection back to life, He came to the disciples as flesh and blood and ate something in their presence to prove He was really in a human body and not just a Spirit.

Luke 24:36  Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.”
v. 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
v. 38  And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
v. 39 “Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
v. 40  When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.
v. 41  But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?”
v. 42  So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb.
v. 43  And He took it and ate in their presence.

So when the elect are raised, they will be "like Him" and I think this is one aspect they will share with Christ in that glorious state of being, that they can appear on earth as flesh and blood to the people they will be judging.

1John 3:2  Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Ian 155

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Re: I will pour out My spirit on all flesh...
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2015, 06:07:39 AM »


I guess a simple question to you Ian, is do you think there is a literal bodily resurrection for the elect yet to come in the future?

mercy, peace and love
Kathy




Hi Kat,you are aware I got banned for this  :D...

these are my thoughts below

I believe everything is spiritual, to answer your question Id need a verse x2 to back myself..this I don't have and I don't think you will find one except for 2tim 2v18 I believe Hymenaeus and Philetus,believed in a "physical" resurrection and were blaspheming.

some pointers for me were the messenger speaking with Mary luke 24 ..."Why do you look for the living among the dead"

One could view this as "well the clothing (grave) were there and no bones" or one could see that the clothing is now  no longer a hindrance... that is knowing HE will "re dress" us andthrow in some spiritual jewelry.

To my mind bones are symbolic ... Jesus said you are "whitewashed tombs full of dead mens bones" yet they were standing in front of him, chewing gum and breathing...

I used to see what Jesus did physically happens to us Physically... now I see everything he done Physically happens in us spiritually we raise the spiritually"dead" we heal the spiritually sick,we feed the poor in spirit etc

However carnal minds are full of vain Imaginations and are looking for the physical/or the "unless I see it literally, I wont believe" this is the exact opposite of faith though... and this is one pointer that separates us from them, for now.(sheep vs goats)

When Jesus (now resurrected) was on the road to Emmaus the 2 disciples had absolutely no idea who they were talking to - there eyes were opened after - when ? when they "broke bread" (revisited ,symbolically the "death").we are to do this often in our thoughts...

Luk 24:32 And they say to one another, "Was not our heart burning in us as He spoke to us on the road and as He opened up to us on the road and as He opened up to us the scriptures...

They recognised him after the Spirit not after his appearance

Long time back Ray got me thinking,(well I know now it was God using Ray) while speaking on carnality, quote "To be carnal is NOT Good,its BAD... for to be carnally minded IS DEATH.

Jesus makes the following statement "Let the dead bury the Dead", this, although imaginative, is literally impossible...

So no I do not believe we are raised physically or else we will not see God,who is Spirit and.. "Spirit begets Spirit".

There is an awful lot more on this, I am trying to get my head around the prodigal son now, which could be the greatest test, when considering these coming into the kingdom and we been studying ,crying,praying and they get to enter these heavens FREELY...There is more to being elect than meets the natural eye..one cant be sure if they are elect or can they ?

Even more pressing is, how does this help me now, I mean I'm living in a "real" world ..
this is a short prayer btw.

blessings


2Co 5:1 For we are aware that, if our terrestrial tabernacle house should be demolished, we have a building of God, a house not made by hands, eonian, in the heavens."
« Last Edit: July 26, 2015, 06:59:15 AM by Ian 155 »
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indianabob

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Re: I will pour out My spirit on all flesh...
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2015, 10:27:48 AM »

Friend Ian 155

Thanks for the friendly explanation, BUT...

I don't see that you answered Kat's simple question in a simple manner with additional exposition where needed.

I would have answered that we are resurrected spiritual with the ability to appear in physical form in order to function in an earthly, physical environment.

Many examples are found in scripture in addition to Jesus' appearance after his resurrection.

What is so difficult about my statement that may confuse or mislead??? ;D
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Kat

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Re: I will pour out My spirit on all flesh...
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2015, 11:41:00 AM »


I believe everything is spiritual, to answer your question Id need a verse x2 to back myself..this I don't have and I don't think you will find one except for 2tim 2v18 I believe Hymenaeus and Philetus,believed in a "physical" resurrection and were blaspheming.

2Ti 2:16  But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.
v. 17  And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort,
v. 18  who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

You do see there that Hymenaeus and Philetus' "idle babbling" was that "the resurrection is already past" and that is because the resurrection is yet future. Paul even explained that those saying there was no literal resurrection, then neither did they believe in Christ's literal resurrection back to life as the Firstfruit, His physical body was changed and raised into a glorious spiritual body... that is what the elect will experience as well.

1Cor 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
v. 13  But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
v. 14  And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
v. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise.

Paul went on to explain that IF there is no resurrection, then the those elect who have "fallen asleep" - died, are "perished" - lose forever.

1Cor 15:16  For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
v. 17  And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
v. 18  Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
v. 19  If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
v. 20  But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
v. 21  For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
v. 22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
v. 23  But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Paul says to the elect that they "will receive (future, my comment) the crown of glory," and "shall be (future) made alive"... "at His coming," Paul and the other elect were already begotten with the Holy Spirit, their crown/reward was yet future.

1Pe 5:4  and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.

So yes there is a spiritual begettal for the chosen few now, in this life, but clearly Paul says that his crown is "laid up for me"  waiting for him to receive in the resurrection to glory, in the future.

2Tim 4:8  Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: July 26, 2015, 11:51:55 AM by Kat »
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rick

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Re: I will pour out My spirit on all flesh...
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2015, 01:43:08 PM »


I guess a simple question to you Ian, is do you think there is a literal bodily resurrection for the elect yet to come in the future?

mercy, peace and love
Kathy




Hi Kat,you are aware I got banned for this  :D...

these are my thoughts below

I believe everything is spiritual, to answer your question Id need a verse x2 to back myself..this I don't have



Hello Ian,

Without a 2nd witness of scripture one can make the word of God say anything and you admitted you cannot find a 2nd witness, so you are confronted with 2 Pe 1:20

2Pe 1:20  knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.

Also, if everything is spiritual now how do you explain  1Co 15:46  Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.

1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption                                                                        ( physical )                             ( spiritual )

You also mentioned Mat 23:27  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Notice Christ said ( like ) not ( are )

These Pharisees and scribes though they could obtain life by obeying the law but the law only brings death.

Rom 7:9  And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died;


Another thing also, if the resurrection has already happen physically then we could do what Christ does I would imagine

 ( 1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.

Joh 20:26 sounds like to me Christ just appeared in a room with the door shut, Christ came through where ? The door ? The door was locked , the walls ? I don’t know He just appeared in the room with them.

Joh 20:26  And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

Can God’s elect just appear in a room in like manner as Christ did ?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2015, 01:46:17 PM by Rick »
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Ian 155

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Re: I will pour out My spirit on all flesh...
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2015, 03:48:31 AM »

Friend Ian 155

Thanks for the friendly explanation, BUT...

I don't see that you answered Kat's simple question in a simple manner with additional exposition where needed.

Pleasure BUT...Thats my choice, having been down this path before, would you give, what is sacred, to "dogs" ? ever hear of the word SETUP

I would have answered that we are resurrected spiritual with the ability to appear in physical form in order to function in an earthly, physical environment.

Really so there are exceptions to Your word ...one can be in the heavens and be fleshly at the same time?

Many examples are found in scripture in addition to Jesus' appearance after his resurrection.

well then you don't have to know Jesus (God) after the spirit ? Right ?and you will see the invisible God with your natural eyeball right ?

You can say "hey" I see Jesus in him, he has long hair and is rather handsome,with a slightly longer nose ?


friend... here are some "crumbs"...Jesus often appears to me and many others, he tells me many things and explains himself/his word, yet...,

I don't see anything ? get the picture?


What is so difficult about my statement that may confuse or mislead??? ;D

what statement ? ;D



So you recon we climb back into our mama's womb and come out again only this time half spiritual and half physical

ye are yet carnal...

don't panic though,all in Gods time,
perhaps you are being raised from the dead, right now...


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Ian 155

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Re: I will pour out My spirit on all flesh...
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2015, 06:20:39 AM »


I believe everything is spiritual, to answer your question Id need a verse x2 to back myself..this I don't have and I don't think you will find one except for 2tim 2v18 I believe Hymenaeus and Philetus,believed in a "physical" resurrection and were blaspheming.

2Ti 2:16  But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.
v. 17  And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort,
v. 18  who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

You do see there that Hymenaeus and Philetus' "idle babbling" was that "the resurrection is already past" and that is because the resurrection is yet future.

NO I DON'T SEE IT LIKE THAT

PAST,Well literally... that then takes care of the "lie" that Christ was resurrected, ya think ?There is more to this verse than meets the eye,go and study it before your one and only verse, which to YOU means there is only a PHYSICAL RESURRECTION OF "DUST" PEOPLE AFTER YOU DIE LITERALLY

Perhaps the title of this ladies thread, may waken you.

Would be good to see how the Spirit returns To God Who gave it.. LITERALLY
"then man's dust will go back to the earth, returning to what it was, and the spirit will return to the God who gave it"


 Paul even explained that those saying there was no literal resurrection, then neither did they believe in Christ's literal resurrection back to life as the Firstfruit, His physical body was changed and raised into a glorious spiritual body... that is what the elect will experience as well.

What would you want this old tent for ? and Paul did not say anything about a "literal" resurrection

THE RENEWAL OF YOUR MIND BY THE WASHING OF THE WORD

1Cor 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

yes Id like to know too we are resurrected,BORN AGAIN,NOT WITH HANDS, BY HIS SPIRIT.

The way you are interpreting the scriptures, surely this verse above directly contradicts your fav verse  2 Tim 2v18 ?
v. 13  But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.

EXACTLY
v. 14  And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.

PRECISELY

v. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise.


YEBO

Paul went on to explain that IF there is no resurrection, then the those elect who have "fallen asleep" - died, are "perished" - lose forever.

Who Said there is no resurrection ??

BTW CAN YOU SEE A MIND, A RENEWED ONE ?

1Cor 15:16  For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
v. 17  And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
v. 18  Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
v. 19  If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
v. 20  But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
v. 21  For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
v. 22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.(alive to what)human status ?
v. 23  But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
AND THESE VERSES ABOVE MEAN THAT YOU MUST BE RESURRECTED PHYSICALLY ?
Paul says to the elect that they "will receive (future, my comment) the crown of glory," and "shall be (future) made alive"... "at His coming," Paul and the other elect were already begotten with the Holy Spirit, their crown/reward was yet future.

1Pe 5:4  and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.

ALL PHYSICAL THINGS FADE AWAY, SO WE AGREE, THIS IS A SPIRITUAL CROWN OF GLORY.

So yes there is a spiritual begettal for the chosen few now, in this life, but clearly Paul says that his crown is "laid up for me"  waiting for him to receive in the resurrection to glory, in the future.

(this crown is it physical ?) what does "crown" have to do with appearance ?

YA CANT SEE SPIRIT WITH THE NATURAL EYEBALL

2Tim 4:8  Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Flesh Cannot contain the kingdom... in the Flesh one is restricted... is God Restricted ?You will never convince me that we who are going to be like HIM, are raised flesh or fleshly or half and half only PURE fits the Kingdom all else dies.

If you believe we will be as HE is then eating all the "big macs" in America will not come close to stretching your body to fit the kingdom of GOD into IT -

FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM - SPIRIT BEGETS SPIRIT,WE ARE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE,NO "HINT" OF CARNALITY,ANY REMOTE SIGN OF FLESH/CARNALITY WILL ROT,DIE, THE SPIRIT ONLY, BRINGS LIFE .


IT may carnal to assume the walls of Jericho were physical  I pray that the Walls and Doors will come down and be opened in your and my mind .

The adversary would not have it so, it appears

1Co 15:26 The last enemy is being abolished: death
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 07:43:39 AM by Ian 155 »
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