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Author Topic: Baptizing for the dead  (Read 5267 times)

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dave

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Baptizing for the dead
« on: August 01, 2015, 07:49:45 PM »

Can someone help me to get an understanding of
1Co 15:29  Seeing what shall they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? why also are they baptized for the dead?

What does it mean " baptized for the dead" and why are they "baptized for the dead" Is dead spoken of a physical death or some other dead?

Just seems odd to me. And are we to pray for the dead?    Thanks
« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 07:52:47 PM by micah7:9 »
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John from Kentucky

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Re: Baptizing for the dead
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2015, 09:41:11 PM »

Here is something from Ray on that Scripture.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2539.0.html

Baptism
« on: November 29, 2006, 01:04:15 PM »
RAY,
 
IF YOU WOULD AT YOUR CONVINCE, PLEASE HELP ME WITH THIS SCRIPTURE. I CAN NOT GET ANY HELP WITH THIS VERSE (I Cor. 15:29).
 
IN CHRIST,
 
SAM
 

Dear Sam:
Some churches actually baptize living people on behalf of dead people.  I guess if one can be baptized for a dead person who wasn't baptized, then they could also live a righteous life for a dead evil criminal. How neato!
 
Actually this verse has nothing to do with such nonsense. However, Concordant has a better translation of this verse:
 
"Else what shall those be doing who are baptizing [baptizing living people, not dead people]?  It is for the sake of the dead absolutely IF THE DEAD ARE NOT BEING ROUSED.  Why are they baptizing also for their sake?"
 
In other words, why are you or we or anyone baptizing people if when they die and are DEAD, they NEVER rise again? Of what value was their baptism? It was of no value. Paul also add, "...if as a man, I fight wild beasts in Ephesus, what is the benefit for me?  If the dead are not being roused, we may be eating and drinking, for TOMORROW WE ARE DYING."
 
Why do strange and difficult things if they profit nothing after we are gone?  But these things DO PROFIT after we are gone, after we are DEAD, after others are DEAD, becaue the dead WILL RISE AGAIN.
 
God be with you,
Ray
« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 09:43:23 PM by John from Kentucky »
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Joel

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Re: Baptizing for the dead
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2015, 11:24:27 AM »

The Lord Jesus Christ has always been the central figure when it comes to baptisms, what is the purpose of baptism if he is dead, and was never resurrected?

Romans 6:3-Know ye not, that so many of us were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4:-Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in the newness of life.

Joel
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Kat

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Re: Baptizing for the dead
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2015, 12:23:17 PM »


Can someone help me to get an understanding of
1Co 15:29  Seeing what shall they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? why also are they baptized for the dead?

What does it mean " baptized for the dead" and why are they "baptized for the dead" Is dead spoken of a physical death or some other dead?

Just seems odd to me. And are we to pray for the dead?    Thanks


I think it helps understand that verse if you look at the rest of what Paul is saying here and if you consider where he's coming from in the whole passage you can get a much better sense of it. Go back up to verse 12 and you can see he is trying to explain that there is indeed a resurrection of the dead to some of those who must be doubting it.

1Co 15:12  And if Christ is preached, that out of the dead he hath risen, how say certain among you, that there is no rising again of dead persons?
v. 13  and if there be no rising again of dead persons, neither hath Christ risen;
v. 14  and if Christ hath not risen, then void is our preaching, and void also your faith,
v. 15  and we also are found false witnesses of God, because we did testify of God that He raised up the Christ, whom He did not raise if then dead persons do not rise;
v. 16  for if dead persons do not rise, neither hath Christ risen,
v. 17  and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins;
v. 18  then, also, those having fallen asleep in Christ did perish;
v. 19  if in this life we have hope in Christ only, of all men we are most to be pitied.
v. 20  And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits of those sleeping He became,
v. 21  for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again of the dead,
v. 22  for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, (Young's literal)

So Paul is talking to these people that are questioning that there is a resurrection. When he gets down to verse 29 he is still explaining that there certainly was a resurrection or else then believers who were being 'spiritually' baptized into Christ would just be doing it for a dead man (v. 13 "and if there be no rising again of dead persons, neither hath Christ risen"). So he asks them those rhetorical questions.

1Cor 15:29  Seeing what shall they (believers) do who are baptized for the dead (if there is no resurrection, then those that die are just dead), if the dead (Christ) do not rise at all? why also are they (believers) baptized for the dead (because what good is a dead Savior)? (Young's)

Those are Paul's questions to them, if they are doubting in the resurrection... I mean he's saying if they don't believe in the resurrection, well what's the point in struggling to obey what a dead Christ said we should do? As Paul says in verse 32 "if the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."

To believe there will be a resurrection is the whole reason for the hope we have.... Christ rising from the dead IS our hope of glory! Remember Paul explained about our being baptized into Christ's 'death,' but we won't (nor did Christ) stay in that dead condition... baptism is the symbolism of being dead as Christ WAS, BUT Paul continues on to our being "raised up (like Christ was) ... in newness of life."

Rom 6:3  Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
v. 4  we were buried together, then, with Him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk.

So Paul continues with those in doubt that it is the very hope of the resurrection from the dead (and not staying dead), that he was willing to risk peril to come to them and teach them this precious truth.

1Cor 15:30  why also do we stand in peril every hour?
v. 31  Every day do I die, by the glorying of you that I have in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Rom 8:36  As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long (the peril they faced in teaching this truth); we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered."

Hope this is helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 02:16:49 PM by Kat »
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dave

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Re: Baptizing for the dead
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2015, 01:39:37 PM »

Thank you all .....cleared it up.
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microlink

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Re: Baptizing for the dead
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2015, 01:00:36 AM »



I think it helps understand that verse if you look at the rest of what Paul is saying here and if you consider where he's coming from in the whole passage you can get a much better sense of it. Go back up to verse 12 and you can see he is trying to explain that there is indeed a resurrection of the dead to some of those who must be doubting it.

1Co 15:12  And if Christ is preached, that out of the dead he hath risen, how say certain among you, that there is no rising again of dead persons?
v. 13  and if there be no rising again of dead persons, neither hath Christ risen;
v. 14  and if Christ hath not risen, then void is our preaching, and void also your faith,
v. 15  and we also are found false witnesses of God, because we did testify of God that He raised up the Christ, whom He did not raise if then dead persons do not rise;
v. 16  for if dead persons do not rise, neither hath Christ risen,
v. 17  and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins;
v. 18  then, also, those having fallen asleep in Christ did perish;
v. 19  if in this life we have hope in Christ only, of all men we are most to be pitied.
v. 20  And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits of those sleeping He became,
v. 21  for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again of the dead,
v. 22  for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, (Young's literal)

So Paul is talking to these people that are questioning that there is a resurrection. When he gets down to verse 29 he is still explaining that there certainly was a resurrection or else then believers who were being 'spiritually' baptized into Christ would just be doing it for a dead man (v. 13 "and if there be no rising again of dead persons, neither hath Christ risen"). So he asks them those rhetorical questions.

1Cor 15:29  Seeing what shall they (believers) do who are baptized for the dead (if there is no resurrection, then those that die are just dead), if the dead (Christ) do not rise at all? why also are they (believers) baptized for the dead (because what good is a dead Savior)? (Young's)

Those are Paul's questions to them, if they are doubting in the resurrection... I mean he's saying if they don't believe in the resurrection, well what's the point in struggling to obey what a dead Christ said we should do? As Paul says in verse 32 "if the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."

To believe there will be a resurrection is the whole reason for the hope we have.... Christ rising from the dead IS our hope of glory! Remember Paul explained about our being baptized into Christ's 'death,' but we won't (nor did Christ) stay in that dead condition... baptism is the symbolism of being dead as Christ WAS, BUT Paul continues on to our being "raised up (like Christ was) ... in newness of life."

Rom 6:3  Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
v. 4  we were buried together, then, with Him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk.

So Paul continues with those in doubt that it is the very hope of the resurrection from the dead (and not staying dead), that he was willing to risk peril to come to them and teach them this precious truth.

1Cor 15:30  why also do we stand in peril every hour?
v. 31  Every day do I die, by the glorying of you that I have in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Rom 8:36  As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long (the peril they faced in teaching this truth); we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered."

Hope this is helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Thanks Kat,
I believe you have given about as good an explanation as anyone on the business of being baptised for the dead.
It all comes back to the concept of the resurrection of the dead as a belief which some in Corinth were unsure of.
But it still does not really answer the question of why they would want to do that. I sounds like a relapse to former beliefs. I do not know?

Perhaps the AUV version sums up the debatable aspects of this verse in I Cor 15:29 adequately:

1 Corinthians 15:29
AUV(i) 29 Otherwise [i.e., if there were no resurrection], what do people accomplish by being immersed for those who have [already] died? If dead people are not raised up at all, why then are people immersed on their behalf? [Note: The foregoing rendition is the most commonly held one of over 30 interpretations given to this very difficult verse. Other possibilities are: a) "immersed in view of (being raised from) the dead," b) "immersed in view of being dead (to sin)," c) "immersed in view of (having to suffer) death," d) "immersed in view of (someday joining) the dead"].


peace


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John from Kentucky

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Re: Baptizing for the dead
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2015, 11:14:34 AM »

This one obscure verse also illustrates the truth that no Scripture is its own interpretation.

One Scripture cannot establish a doctrine or truth.

In the mouth of two or three witnesses, let every word be established.

We must have as a minimum two witnesses.

That is how the Elect have been kept in the truth over the centuries.
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microlink

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Re: Baptizing for the dead
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2015, 11:49:41 AM »

very true!
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Kat

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Re: Baptizing for the dead
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2015, 03:03:07 PM »


The verse is only obscure when you put it alone without the rest of the passage. Paul explains in detail, through many verses, what he is talking about there. We find elsewhere in Scripture that there certainly was those who did not believe in resurrection, as they had asked Jesus about that very thing.

Mat 22:23  The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him,

So it's understandable that there may have been some among the believers who were not convinced about a resurrection. There in 1 Cor. 15 Paul starts out his instruction to those believers saying that "Christ died for our sins" (verse 2) "He was buried, and that He rose again the third day" (verse 3). This whole passage seems to be mainly about Christ had been resurrection. Paul goes on to tell about all those who had seen Christ 'after' resurrection and were eye witnesses... then comes Paul first questions to their disbelief that Christ was indeed raised from the dead.

1Co 15:11  Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
v. 12  Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
v. 13  But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
v. 14  And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.

In this passage all the way down to verse 29, it's about Christ being raised, but then Paul throws in baptism and that really throws the church (and what's in the commentaries) on this verse off... they cannot connect that, because they don't understand what that means. To them the physical act of baptism is required for a person to be converted... even the Apostles thought so at first. I can see how they would use Jesus' example of that. But we have learned it is spiritual, as Ray taught no water needed.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=4472.0 ---
The circumcision is without hands, the baptism is without water. This is Christ’s circumcision, Christ’s baptism, Christ is the anointing, it’s Christ, Christ, Christ, all of it.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Acts 1:5  for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

1Co 15:29  Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead?

So Paul comes to the verse in question, if his answer there is not sufficient, he gave a direct and detailed answer to this elsewhere.

Rom 6:3  Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
v. 4  Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
v. 5  For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,

Rom 6:8  Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
v. 9  knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.

Hope that is helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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John from Kentucky

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Re: Baptizing for the dead
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2015, 03:29:13 PM »

The verse is obscure when you look into its history.

Many translations, by scholars fluent in Greek, have not made the meaning clear.

Many commentators over the centuries have been perplexed over that Scripture.

And as Ray mentioned in his email, there are churches who actually baptize living people on behalf of dead people.

If that verse were crystal clear, without any ambiguity, then you would not have the confusion it has caused.

However, I believe Ray's email has it correct.  He quoted from a 2nd witness that makes it clear.

It all goes back to the need of the Two Witnesses, and their explanation as the two olive trees in the Book of Zechariah, which also says, "Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit says the Lord God Almighty."
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