> General Discussions
Should we be asking for forgiveness.
rick:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on September 12, 2015, 06:48:43 PM ---Rick:
Firstly, "forgiveness" is not the equivalent of "salvation". Salvation is FROM something. Salvation is a process. God's forgiveness is the first 'step' of that process in salvation from sin. The next two are 'repentance' and 'cleansing'. None of those words are theological terms. They are sound language. Since "salvation" is a process, it begins and ends and has a middle. Every step of that process has a beginning an end and a middle. Some are being "saved" now. All will be saved one day. But nobody who hasn't undergone the "process" will ever be "saved" until they have. It's axiomatic. That's what "salvation" IS.
Just listened to this today. Listen and get far more than I can communicate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5YCfZQ7XfU
Secondly, why wouldn't you ask for forgiveness? Are you afraid of breaking some theological rule? If you know your sins are forgiven, give thanks. If you believe that until you forgive, you won't be forgiven...then at least you know where to start. "FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES..." The Lord Jesus taught us to pray that.
Thirdly, a question for you. You say God is sovereign over your will. If God did not exist, would your will then be free to choose good over evil? What about evil over good? What about what flavor of Girl Scout cookies to buy?
--- End quote ---
Hi Dave,
First , I thank you for the link you put up, I listened to that link twice this morning, what a beautiful way to spend my Sunday morning as I enjoyed the topic very much.
You asked me three questions Dave, 1st why wouldn't you ask for forgiveness? I do ask forgiveness Dave but my original question or statement was referring to Christ paid for the sins of the world and if Christ already paid for the sins of the world that would mean before anyone sins they are already forgiven before they ask to be forgiven.
But there are those scriptures that Largeli put up and cannot be denied and also there is another scripture that says if we ask forgiveness Jesus is faithful and just to forgive us .
So, I’m not as sure about my original statement as I first was when I had ask that question.
2nd question you asked ( You say God is sovereign over your will. If God did not exist, would your will then be free to choose good over evil? What about evil over good? )
Yes, I do believe God is sovereign over my will but if God did not exist would I be free to choice good over evil or evil over good ?
Well, would we not still be operating under cause and effect ? What I mean is if it rains ( cause )
would not the effect be to build a house ?
I would have to say ( free will ) is not an option.
Also you did ask ( What about what flavor of Girl Scout cookies to buy ) there would have to be a cause for me to choose a particular flavor I suppose.
God bless.
Dave in Tenn:
--- Quote from: Rick on September 13, 2015, 10:31:52 AM ---
2nd question you asked ( You say God is sovereign over your will. If God did not exist, would your will then be free to choose good over evil? What about evil over good? )
Yes, I do believe God is sovereign over my will but if God did not exist would I be free to choice good over evil or evil over good ?
Well, would we not still be operating under cause and effect ? What I mean is if it rains ( cause )
would not the effect be to build a house ?
I would have to say ( free will ) is not an option.
Also you did ask ( What about what flavor of Girl Scout cookies to buy ) there would have to be a cause for me to choose a particular flavor I suppose.
God bless.
--- End quote ---
Rick, this is the root of your 'struggle' with this issue. From your answer, though you 'know' some truths hidden from the world, you don't really believe in God. At least not the God revealed in Scripture.
I suppose it's also possible you didn't really read the question. So I'll give you another shot at it.
If God did not exist, would your will then be free to choose good over evil? What about evil over good? What about what flavor of Girl Scout cookies to buy?
rick:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on September 13, 2015, 11:19:55 AM ---
--- Quote from: Rick on September 13, 2015, 10:31:52 AM ---
2nd question you asked ( You say God is sovereign over your will. If God did not exist, would your will then be free to choose good over evil? What about evil over good? )
Yes, I do believe God is sovereign over my will but if God did not exist would I be free to choice good over evil or evil over good ?
Well, would we not still be operating under cause and effect ? What I mean is if it rains ( cause )
would not the effect be to build a house ?
I would have to say ( free will ) is not an option.
Also you did ask ( What about what flavor of Girl Scout cookies to buy ) there would have to be a cause for me to choose a particular flavor I suppose.
God bless.
--- End quote ---
Rick, this is the root of your 'struggle' with this issue. From your answer, though you 'know' some truths hidden from the world, you don't really believe in God. At least not the God revealed in Scripture.
I suppose it's also possible you didn't really read the question. So I'll give you another shot at it.
If God did not exist, would your will then be free to choose good over evil? What about evil over good? What about what flavor of Girl Scout cookies to buy?
--- End quote ---
Hi Dave,
I don’t agree with your statement Dave, I believe God does exist , I believe in creation by design.
You asked a hypothetical question which I should of know better to answer but nonetheless I did
answer.
Its not that I don’t believe but rather I don’t fully understand, now if not understanding means not believing then I don’t believe as you say but if not understanding means God is still showing me then where is your patience for us who are less fortunate than you?
If your insinuating that unless I understand everything that Ray understood I’m not a believer in Christ then so be it but this I do know Dave, it has nothing to do with me and everything to do with Christ, it is God who does the calling and saving, it is God who gives us our faith and faith is not of ourselves but of God.
So the real question is not if God calls us but when God calls us, you talked about a beginning a middle and end Ray talked about this age or the next age, I say I don’t believe as Christendom does, you say I don’t believe as you do, so I guess I’m in the middle but what I’m trying to understand is the middle of what ? Belief or unbelief the milk of the word or the meat of the word, life and death.
There sure are a lot of gray areas in life but I know God will make all things plain to understand one day for people like me. To me its not so much about where I’m at but where I’m going but I won’t get there until God says so.
God bless.
Dave in Tenn:
The Apostle John postulated "without God". Why can't I? Much of the world's people have questioned if there is a God, and if so, what kind of God. Don't wrestle away from the question because it makes you uncomfortable.
Scripture tells us that there is God. And it tells us what kind of God and what He does and has done. I'm saying unequivocally that by your answer, you don't believe in 'that' God.
You said, "There sure are a lot of gray areas in life but I know God will make all things plain to understand one day for people like me. To me its not so much about where I’m at but where I’m going but I won’t get there until God says so."
That's what I'm trying to do for you...be one who God may use to help you 'get there'. I don't 'understand' all things either. But I do 'believe' the most basic of truths concerning God and me. The way you've answered tells me you do not. You SAY you do (and much of what you say is truth), but you don't.
rick:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on September 13, 2015, 12:22:40 PM ---The Apostle John postulated "without God". Why can't I? Much of the world's people have questioned if there is a God, and if so, what kind of God. Don't wrestle away from the question because it makes you uncomfortable.
Scripture tells us that there is God. And it tells us what kind of God and what He does and has done. I'm saying unequivocally that by your answer, you don't believe in 'that' God.
You said, "There sure are a lot of gray areas in life but I know God will make all things plain to understand one day for people like me. To me its not so much about where I’m at but where I’m going but I won’t get there until God says so."
That's what I'm trying to do for you...be one who God may use to help you 'get there'. I don't 'understand' all things either. But I do 'believe' the most basic of truths concerning God and me. The way you've answered tells me you do not. You SAY you do (and much of what you say is truth), but you don't.
--- End quote ---
Hi Dave,
You say the apostle John postulated, which means,
( postulate >verb 1 suggest or assume the existence, fact, or truth of (something) as a basis for reasoning or belief. 2 nominate or elect to an ecclesiastical office subject to the sanction of a higher authority. >noun a thing postulated.
-DERIVATIVES postulation >noun.
-ORIGIN Latin postulare 'ask'.)
“without God “ why can’t I ? Referring to yourself, I never said you could not Dave, I just think it leads back to Christendom, don’t wish to get involved in hypothetical’s and neither did Ray.
But to entertain your question I would need more information, if God does not exist, does the universe still operate with the law of cause and effect ? Does the law of cause and effect go out the window with God too or do they stay in effect ? If they stay in effect how can that be without God who created the law of cause and effect ?
If the law of cause and effect do not exist how would that affect us ? Would we be free of causality where there is no cause ? Where there are no causes can there be effects ? Or would we now become the cause who effects all things ?
Would the law of gravity still be in effect without the law of cause and effect ? Is it possible to exist without the law of gravity ?
I just don’t see how you or John can take God out of the equation without coming back to where you started before you took God out of the equation, its just circles
Its not I’m uncomfortable with the question, its just not a possibility, if God does not exist then we cannot exist either, there is no life no universe outside of God.
You say what if this I say what if that, it just goes in circles. If you say I don’t believe in God then to you I don’t believe in God.
God bless, from the God you say I don’t believe in. :)
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