Hello Again,
Might it be that Rome is not directly implicated as the beast in Revelation because of the time when it was written? There had already been some Roman persecution of Christians under Nero, who ruled the empire between 54 and 68 AD. What a politically incorrect document Revelation would have been, for hundreds and hundreds of years, if the beast's identity weren't veiled in symbolism. I suspect Jesus knows what He's doing. Well, context and relationship, there is so much of these supporting this understanding. Are you familiar with the four beasts of Daniel, as well as the four corresponding divisions of the statue in Nebuchadnezzar's dream? There's so much that pertains to this, and I encourage you to explore it. If anybody would like a link to some good materials, email me and I'll be happy to provide. But in the spirit of not arguing dissenting viewpoints on this forum, to which rule I've agreed, I'll leave the pursuit or otherwise of followup regarding this matter to your own discretion.
Extol, I'm not an Adventist, nor do I have any Adventist friends. But Adventists have been making Revelation and Biblical prophecy their stock-in-trade for about 170 years and, though I don't agree with everything they propose, I've nonetheless suggested that they're quite good at the study of prophetic scripture, and well worth some attention. But your mileage may vary, and I'll leave it at that.
I appreciate the verses which indicate that Christ fully intends to save all from death in sin, but it's not quite enough, as there is also so much that implies, or can easily be made to imply that salvation is selective, and these things also need to be addressed. I don't mean that you've somehow fallen short of adequate demonstration, but it's important that I arm myself with reasoned argument supported by scripture to deal with all aspects of the issue. It doesn't seem at all far-fetched to me that error in accurately understanding the ultimate fate of all of humanity has been allowed by God these past 2000 years and that now, as we approach the end, it's appropriate to correct it. And I hope Mr. Smith will provide me with the tools to do this, if not the whole toolbox, at least a good start, because I do so want to believe and teach that all of God's prodigal children will be guided home.
These direct statements you and Mr. Smith have provided which point simply to all of humanity being ultimately protected are quite good, as is the understanding that the word, judgment, can also be understood as 'to make things right'. I suspect the latter, word-meaning insight will be helpful in "debunking" those many statements in scripture which suggest that salvation is selective.
In Christ,
Mark
Hello!
The reason Rome is not directly mentioned as the beast in revelation is because it is not the beast. When you establish doctrine in scripture, you need to compare spiritual with spiritual because no verse is ever becoming its own interpretation. Comparing spiritual with spiritual requires AT LEAST two witnesses!
2 Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its own explanation.
1 Corinthians 2:12-15 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak,
not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing
spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because
they are spiritually discerned.
Everything you need to understand scripture is itself contained within the scriptures but without the spirit of God it will be in vain. You will never find in scripture two witnesses that testify to the idea that the beast of scripture is anything else but mankind itself. Notice I said "in scripture" because you can find plenty of that nonsense outside of it.
Zechariah 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.
The two witnesses have power:
Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses
every word may be established.
2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall
every word be established.
The scriptures are the witnesses because they are who testify of God and in their multitude their is safety!
Proverbs 11:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.
Proverbs 24:6 For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors there is safety.
Every word and doctrine we believe is testified to by the cloud of witnesses, the multitude of counselors, the two anointed ones who stand before the Lord of all the earth. It must be or it is not truth!
Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Zechariah 4:11-14
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
Jesus' words are spirit and to understand spirit you need to compare spiritual with spiritual. And to compare something with something else you need those two witnesses!
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Lastly, what you establish as doctrine cannot contradict the other truths of scripture (established in the mouth of two or three witnesses) because the Sum of God's Word is truth.
Psa 119:160 The sum of thy word is truth; And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever.
Revelation is the revelation OF Jesus and it is His Words [which are spirit] that are recorded for our benefit by John.
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation
of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
To understand the Words of Jesus which are spiritual (John 6:63) you have to compare spiritual with spiritual (1 Cor 2:12-15).
So here again are the two witnesses of God which stand before the Lord of all the earth and who are given power as pertaining to the matter of the beast of revelation:
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has a mind calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is the number of mankind, and its number is six hundred sixty-six."
Ecclesiastes 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
You will never understand revelation or the book of daniel so long as you are looking for the beast somewhere out there. The revelation of Jesus Christ is the revelation of Him who IS, WAS, and WILL BE. Everyone that has ever lived (minus God himself) is the beast of revelation.
In Christ,
Alex
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Topic: Question about anti christs (Read 11032 times)