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Patriotism, nationalism, and statism as forms of idolatry

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Dave in Tenn:
Just some thoughts. 

Jesus said, "Love your neighbors"--agape.  "Love your enemies". --agape.

John said "Love not the world, neither the things of the world"--agape.

Now I know those three don't contradict.  But I see them often quoted "against" each other, particularly Jesus's vs. John's.

I need more than one reason to get out of bed in the morning.  I also need more than one 'verse' to 'understand' just what God wants out of me in any situation.

I understand that I am an ambassador of Christ.  I understand that I am not to get entangled in the affairs of the world--most especially in a "worldly" manner.  To me that especially would be "loving the things of the world".  But am I wrong to be thankful when good things happen in the world?  Is it ONLY an experience of Evil which the Lord gives us to humble us?  Doesn't He also give us 'experiences of good?'  Isn't there "good" also in the fruit? 

The very reason Jesus gave to 'agape' our enemies is:

Mat 5:44, 45  ...Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

If we are here to learn (and I very much think we are) then isn't there something to be learned from the "good" we encounter?  Am I supposed to believe that there is no such thing as 'good'?   

But I need more than one reason to "not get entangled".  Here's more than one that apply to me.  Your mileage may vary.

1.  Involvement in politics on a level far above me seems to me vanity and pride.  I've lived that. 
2.  It causes me no end of grief, loss of faith, and temptation to 'hate' my 'political' foes.  And since I have no 'earthly' power, that too is vanity.  I've lived that too.

We're told that a good life is:

Mic_6:8  He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

What if I see "injustice", "no mercy" and "walking proudly"?  I know God hates these things.  Surely, my first concern is to make sure that I'M "doing justly, loving mercy, and walking humbly."  First I have to judge myself.  But if I judge myself "not guilty", then what?  If the beam is out of MY eye, then what?

Should I not at the least be thankful when there is movement towards "justice, mercy, humility"?  Should I call out hypocrisy when I see it?  And to whom, if I should?  The whole world?  The 'church'?  My little corner of the world where my 'light' can actually be seen?

Did Ray write and record all these volumes to engage in a theological debate?  You have no idea how disappointed I would be if I were to learn that was true.

So if the "nation" and the "world" are not (yet) my domain, what about my community?  That's really where my neighbors are, and where this little grain of salt has fallen.  Can I do something 'here' that won't cause me to 'hate' or feed my vanity and pride?  Can I be part of something that partners with 'government' to try to do some good?  Big or small?  Maybe that might mean calling the police to end a string of robberies or burglaries?  Maybe working against some injustice?  Maybe feed or otherwise help some people?  Maybe?  Assuming I don't loose faith and my 'foes' are not 'political'--not even people at all--but conditions?  Even if it is ultimately pointless in this age, is it always going to be like that?  And isn't there something to learn from trying?

I know that for the flesh, nothing really ends 'well'.  But if we really are 'in training', is it sufficient that we only concern ourselves with the 'evil'?  "Be ye separate"...is that the end of that?  Or can I maybe 'be separate' in another way as well, by doing good when most everybody else is watching TV and eating Cheetos, or sitting in pews singing endless 'praise songs'?

I'm not saying I do much good.  I don't.  Like Ray said, he thought he ought to do some more of these 'good' things, but he was doing what God called HIM to do.  Maybe to a degree, so am I.  But at the least I want to understand what it really MEANS to 'let my light shine'. 

If I can misquote and expand on what Extol said...he said that for many people, 'nationalism' was their 'highest hope'.  Maybe I can soften that a bit and say that for many people "love of country" is their highest calling.  Even though that statement is a little sad, I really think that for most of them it is a "good" thing, as things go, even with all the baggage that may go along with it.  It can inspire them to something above selfishness. 

Given the alternative in parts of the world removed from my 'comfort' and 'blessing', I can't help but be thankful when oligarchs and despots get replaced by legitimate--even if imperfect--governments in places like Africa and South America. God set Kings for His purpose, but He also brought them down.   I just can't bring myself to tell 'those' people that they should do nothing.  That's for them to decide.  How and why things are done matters as much as what is done...maybe even more-so, because 'how' and 'why' are spiritual.  Jesus will judge righteously, both good and bad. 

I'm not so sure I should be telling myself to do nothing either.  Those three scriptures do not contradict.  If somebody has a better idea how to 'unify' them (and others), I'm listening.     

One thing you should give thanks for is that you are not me.  If you need only one reason to get out of bed in the morning, count yourself blessed.   :)   

 

rick:


What does it mean when scripture says we are in the world but not apart of the world ? Each must decide its meaning and how to walk therein according to the calling of Christ.

I live in the world, that is easy to understand but to not be of the world is the thing for us to comprehend.

I think to myself everything is about God, God this God that and all the things God is doing and the beautiful plan of God concerning humanity.

And while this is true, to God, is not everything about us His creation ?  I always thought I was ok , sure, I knew I had issues but for the most part I thought I was just fine.

What I have been realizing lately is I have a beam in my eye and I知 not ok, I知 not fine at all.
The rest of my life will be spent having that beam removed from my eye, then I値l be able to see clearly. We know its Christ who will remove the beam from our eye and not us.

Everything is about us and our being raised up by God, as Christ slowly pulls that beam from my eye I start to see how sick I致e been, how horrible I am ( carnal minded ) the carnal mind is capable of anything under the sun.

How can I remove the log from my brothers eye when I have a beam in my own eye ?  If I do a good thing for someone is it me doing that good thing ? Or is it the love of God flowing thought me that causes me to do that good thing ?

Everything that is good comes from God, without God doing it, is it possible for any human being to do good on their own ?

Everything Ray teaches leads to the beam being removed from our eye, how about the doctrine of hell ? When one comes to understand that this is the doctrine of demons then a small piece of that beam has been removed and so on and so forth.

I used to be a political junkie, I loved politics, I wanted to see this one or that one get in office because I thought they could make a difference. Today I知 not a political junkie, I understand that all politicians live under the same cause and effects just like the rest of us.

When I look at politics today and what the government is doing I think to myself what is God causing them to do and what am I to understand by it. What is God teaching us.

I知 a brother in Christ having the beam removed from my eye and that is a lifetime process. But each day with Christ I see just a little more clearly, I believe when that beam is removed completely I will be with Christ age after age.

God bless.   :)

lilitalienboi16:
Hi Dave,

This may be my very quick take on your post but let me just say that I don't necessarily agree with you that we are even to 'try' and affect change in our 'local' area. I think we need to be focused inwardly on dying to self and through this process our light will naturally shine and permeate our surroundings. Rejoice over good if you want but God is absolutely sovereign and things are going exactly as He planned. God is not calling the world, He isn't even choosing many but only a few and then from that He is justifying even less. He's working with us on a personal level right now and I don't see Him currently interested in transforming us to affect change in the world (or even our local area) at this point in time though that change may naturally follow by God's work in us. When Christ returns and we are like Him, in character and form, then I believe is when He will begin using us to affect the world.

Jesus rebuked the pharisees for not cleaning what was on the inside of them so that the outside would follow. He rebuked them for putting on a show on the outside but being full of dead men bones on the inside. It is not to be so with us. Paul tells us to live quiet and peaceable lives in more than one place. Keep your eyes on Christ and the rest will follow. Don't worry about affecting change anywhere not even locally. That light will shine but when we turn our attention from God towards actually affecting change in our area, I believe (in my humble opinion) we are turning from what He is doing in us to what we can do of our own power. I see it similarly to how we once thought we had to save ourselves until we realized that God was going to save us in His time, through His means, and by His power.

Now as for the Agape and Phileo loves. It appears to me that John isn't saying, "don't agape your enemies" which Jesus commanded, but rather that we shouldn't love the world in its curroptness and evil that occurs. So in other words, don't love the world's WAYS. Don't partake in it. Be seperate from this. We are a [holy] nation onto ourselves with God as our King, a royal priesthood, our citenzship is in the heavens and not on this earth. We agape our enemies the same way God does because we see them for who they will be one day in God. We don't agape the world which is under satan's control right now because that world and its ways as they are now will cease to exist. God will completely destroy it when He ushers in His kingdom.

That's my quick thought on this. I, of course, should put more thought into it and I will return to consider this further but I wanted to share a quick at glance idea that came to my mind upon reading your post. Feel free to agree or disagree.

God bless,
Alex

P.S. Please forgive me if I completely mis understood you, its early morning and I got very little sleep last night... was up late studying and my daughter woke me brigth and early >.>

rick:

I agree with Alex, how can any of us think about making a difference with a beam in our own eye. Christ is working with us, not the world. It is we who are being prepared here and now.

When Christ returns then the beam in our eye will be removed and then we will see clearly to help all others.

As long as we are in these fleshly bodies the beam remains regardless of the knowledge we gain but this knowledge we gain is in preparation of reigning with Christ. 

Its about us right now, not the world or most of humanity. The world to us is only a place that God uses as a testing ground for our growth, and that growth is ultimately making us into the sons and daughters of God.

The difference between Christendom and Rays teaching is I finally understand these truths. 
As far as the government is concerned its going to do what God intended it to do no mater how you view it, Gods will, will be done.

God bless.

Kat:

Do consider what Christ said about how we should live and the effect that has.

Mat 5:14  "You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill can't be hidden.
v. 15  People don't light a lamp and put it under a basket but on a lamp stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.
v. 16  In the same way, let your light shine before people in such a way that they will see your good actions and glorify your Father in heaven."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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