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Author Topic: Patriotism, nationalism, and statism as forms of idolatry  (Read 6722 times)

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Kat

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Re: Patriotism, nationalism, and statism as forms of idolatry
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2015, 05:02:01 PM »

Hi Dave,

The true light has come into the world but the world comprehended it not because the world prefers darkness over the light.

I understand that any light that shines forth from a believer is proportional to the work Christ does in us, no mater how bright the light shines in the darkness, the world comprehend it not. 

Will the darkness comprehend the light in the next aged when Christ rules as king of kings with the elect ?

Hi Rick, we are a light just by seeking to live a righteous life - obedient to Christ's commandments. Yes we are still in the carnal flesh, but we are learning and should be applying what we learn in our lives... that is the light that shines forth. Of course this is Christ working in us teaching us how to live, but we are overcoming and should bare that out in our words and actions... we should be producing good fruit.

Eph 5:8  For once you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light,
v. 9  for the fruit that the light produces consists of every form of goodness, righteousness, and truth.

I don't think believers are changing the world per say, but we are a living example/light to the world and that certainly does effect those around us in a positive way, whether they understand the truth are not. Our family and friends should reap the benefit of our positive influence in their lives.

Php 2:13  For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him.
v. 14  Do everything without complaining or arguing
v. 15  so that you may be blameless and innocent, God's children without any faults among a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine like stars in the world
v. 16  as you hold firmly to the word of life. Then I will be proud when the Messiah returns that I did not run in vain or work hard in vain.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: September 26, 2015, 05:09:11 PM by Kat »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Patriotism, nationalism, and statism as forms of idolatry
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2015, 05:30:56 PM »

"comprehendeth"

G2638
καταλαμβάνω
katalambanō
Thayer Definition:
1) to lay hold of
1a) to lay hold of so as to make oneís own, to obtain, attain to, to make oneís own, to take into oneís self, appropriate
1b) to seize upon, take possession of
1b1) of evils overtaking one, of the last day overtaking the wicked with destruction, of a demon about to torment one
1b2) in a good sense, of Christ by his holy power and influence laying hold of the human mind and will, in order to prompt and govern it
1c) to detect, catch
1d) to lay hold of with the mind
1d1) to understand, perceive, learn, comprehend
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayerís/Strongís Number: from G2596 and G2983
Citing in TDNT: 4:9, 495


By that definition, will the darkness comprehend the light in the next aged when Christ rules as king of kings with the elect ?

Joh 1:4, 5  In him was life, and the life was the light of men, and the light in the darkness did shine, and the darkness did not perceive it.

Joh 1:9  He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.
Joh 1:10  He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him.
Joh 1:11  He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
Joh 1:12  But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name.

Rom 8:20  For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but through Him subjecting it, on hope;
Rom 8:21  that also the creation will be freed from the slavery of corruption to the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom 8:22  For we know that all the creation groans together and travails together until now.
Rom 8:23  And not only so, but also we ourselves having the firstfruit of the Spirit, also we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly expecting adoption, the redemption of our body...

Rick, I'm well aware of the order of things.  So if that is your disagreement, there's no need for it.  If you disagree that he has come to seek and to save those that are perishing, then you're arguing with Scripture.  You and me and everybody who has 'seen the light' was (by your own testimony) once blind to it.  SOME of those NOW blind will 'see', unless the Father has stopped giving Him people.  Lest we think we have 'arrived', Paul says that even though we have the first-fruits of His Spirit (assuming, of course, we do) we ALSO eagerly expect adoption.

I know that to some people this means "I want to get rid of every sin".  That's true enough.  But isn't it also that "I want to be able to do all the good I would like to do?" 

Jesus sent out His disciples to heal and cast out demons in His name...before they were spiritually converted.  How much more-so after!  And how much more so when these bodies are changed.

 

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Rick

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Re: Patriotism, nationalism, and statism as forms of idolatry
« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2015, 06:36:59 PM »

Hi Dave,

The true light has come into the world but the world comprehended it not because the world prefers darkness over the light.

I understand that any light that shines forth from a believer is proportional to the work Christ does in us, no mater how bright the light shines in the darkness, the world comprehend it not. 

Will the darkness comprehend the light in the next aged when Christ rules as king of kings with the elect ?

Hi Rick, we are a light just by seeking to live a righteous life - obedient to Christ's commandments. Yes we are still in the carnal flesh, but we are learning and should be applying what we learn in our lives... that is the light that shines forth. Of course this is Christ working in us teaching us how to live, but we are overcoming and should bare that out in our words and actions... we should be producing good fruit.

Eph 5:8  For once you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light,
v. 9  for the fruit that the light produces consists of every form of goodness, righteousness, and truth.

I don't think believers are changing the world per say, but we are a living example/light to the world and that certainly does effect those around us in a positive way, whether they understand the truth are not. Our family and friends should reap the benefit of our positive influence in their lives.

Php 2:13  For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him.
v. 14  Do everything without complaining or arguing
v. 15  so that you may be blameless and innocent, God's children without any faults among a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine like stars in the world
v. 16  as you hold firmly to the word of life. Then I will be proud when the Messiah returns that I did not run in vain or work hard in vain.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi Kat,

I agree with all you said, but you know as well as I do the light that shines in us is always proportional to the work Christ does in a believer, its not a question of hiding our light if God wills our light to shine, what ever light He gives us will shine in the darkness.

The light that shines from a believer will only attract those who the Father has given Christ which are his elect the few for the many hate the light and will most likely do what they can to extinguish the light if it were possible of course.

Not all scripture as you know is not going to be fulfilled in this age, Iím wondering if this scripture Mat 5:14 is for this aged or the next age, its still on my mind what age it fits in.


God bless.








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Kat

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Re: Patriotism, nationalism, and statism as forms of idolatry
« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2015, 08:02:04 PM »


Rick, you do understand that everybody in the world is not steeped in wickedness, don't you? The tree of knowledge is of good as well as evil and there are a lot of people that do appreciate good from others. I know people that most certainly respect the good they see others do and maybe they are not yet to be chosen, but they do not despise what is good/light. My family certainly does not hate my trying to live a godly life, or try to extinguish it, but they do not seek understanding of this truth either.

When we display the fruit of the spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control) by the grace God has given us, it is noticed by the worldly. We are not trying to convert the world, but we are a living witness of the truth, and our fruit of the spirit is certainly not meant to be directed just towards other believers.

Php 4:4  Rejoice in the Lord always. Again I say, Rejoice!
v. 5  Let your moderation be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.

Act 22:14  Then he said, 'The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth.
v. 15  For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: September 26, 2015, 11:02:48 PM by Kat »
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Rick

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Re: Patriotism, nationalism, and statism as forms of idolatry
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2015, 04:11:43 AM »

Hi Kat,

Thank you for the response, I see I must get involved in damage control ( lol ) when I said people donít want the truth and will even extinguish the truth, Iím not talking about if you would good people although I believe there are some evil people out there, just watch the news.

I have met awesome people that donít even believe in God and these people are kind, gentle people who show much love in both words and deeds.

I also will tell you that people who believe in God, the ones who belong to a church are also loving people but when confronted with the truth , not all but some of them are not so kind any more.

I do not believe people are inherently evil we are just created spiritually weak, most folks want to do the right thing but like anyone else they fall short.

People that donít believe in God most likely will never attack you verbally but the ones who will attack you verbally ( believe it or not ) are people who believe in God.

Good comes to everyone in this life but evil to all as well, personally I find it a great joy to love all as much as possible .

I certainly do hope you understand my meaning but if you donít Iíll try to rephrase it again out of love that you seem to think I lack because I had not conveyed myself properly, sorry Kat.  :-[

God bless you Kat.  :)
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Gina

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Re: Patriotism, nationalism, and statism as forms of idolatry
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2015, 10:30:57 AM »

Quote
People that donít believe in God most likely will never attack you verbally but the ones who will attack you verbally ( believe it or not ) are people who believe in God.

That's not true, Rick.

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Rick

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Re: Patriotism, nationalism, and statism as forms of idolatry
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2015, 12:24:24 PM »

Quote
People that donít believe in God most likely will never attack you verbally but the ones who will attack you verbally ( believe it or not ) are people who believe in God.

That's not true, Rick.


Hi Gina,

I said most likely wonít attack, I speak out of experience because I spoken to people who claim they do not believe in God and I mentioned I did and they were still friendly with me afterwards.

Go ahead and tell some church goers there is no hell or mentioned no one has free will and youíll find some will argue with you others get verbally vicious, at least thatís my experience, but then again , its not all who do these things.

I only speak of things I have personally experience, if I have not experience something then I donít really know and if I donít know about something and comment I think that would be a foolish thing to do.

If you have experience hatred coming from someone who claims they donít believe in God then your experience has been different from mine it that area.

God bless, and again , its good to see your back Gina.
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Rick

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Re: Patriotism, nationalism, and statism as forms of idolatry
« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2015, 12:36:24 PM »


If you disagree that he has come to seek and to save those that are perishing, then you're arguing with Scripture.



Hi Dave,

Iím not arguing with scripture just arguing how its being portrayed, although Christ did come to seek and save that which is lost Ray is quite clear that the whole world is not being saved in this age, only the few are being saved in this aged.

Perhaps its just a misunderstanding between we two but that is my understanding concerning that scripture you mentioned. Unless Ray is incorrect about Christ not saving everyone in this age but I believe what Ray has taught.

God bless.
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Gina

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Re: Patriotism, nationalism, and statism as forms of idolatry
« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2015, 01:57:02 PM »

Quote
People that donít believe in God most likely will never attack you verbally but the ones who will attack you verbally ( believe it or not ) are people who believe in God.

That's not true, Rick.


Hi Gina,

I said most likely wonít attack, I speak out of experience because I spoken to people who claim they do not believe in God and I mentioned I did and they were still friendly with me afterwards.

Go ahead and tell some church goers there is no hell or mentioned no one has free will and youíll find some will argue with you others get verbally vicious, at least thatís my experience, but then again , its not all who do these things.

I only speak of things I have personally experience, if I have not experience something then I donít really know and if I donít know about something and comment I think that would be a foolish thing to do.

If you have experience hatred coming from someone who claims they donít believe in God then your experience has been different from mine it that area.

God bless, and again , its good to see your back Gina.

Oh, yes, my experience has been different.  That's what I should have said. 

I have tried to tell Christians that there is no hell, and yes, they do get pretty wound up, as is evidenced by Ray's email replies from self-professed Christians. 

To be fair, I have argued and debated right back.  That doesn't help.  But as a believer, I haven't attacked them for their beliefs.  I just mocked them a little.

But that doesn't negate that there are atheists out there who attack verbally (I wouldn't use the term attack though - mock would be a fairer statement)  when you even just mention the word God.  You get the whole diatribe about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, blah, blah, blah, and believing in fairy tales and just being plain stupid.  But we are to count it all joy when we are persecuted. 

I rarely bring up the hell topic with church going Christians face to face because frankly I don't need to and I don't know that many especially since I don't attend church any longer - Hallelujah and thank God for that.  Sometimes on the internet but it's becoming rare that I do that because of where it leads.  And arguing about it just gets to be like trying to convince someone against their will:  they're of the same opinion still.  They don't want to hear a sermon, they want to see one.

Thanks for your warm welcome, Rick. :)
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Gina

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Re: Patriotism, nationalism, and statism as forms of idolatry
« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2015, 02:01:52 PM »

Correction:  I know church going Christians, but I don't associate with them on a personal level.  I have one good friend who believes that hell exists but doesn't really attend church, and we've had discussions about my belief, but because I care about her and enjoy our friendship, I don't force it down her throat, and she doesn't force her belief  on me either.   We find other things to talk about and we are always talking about God and how He provides.  We're always like, God is so good -- look at how he provides for us!   The other day she was saying, I can't believe how good God is to me because I am so unworthy!! 

Pretty neat huh?

That's the main topic of our conversations -- thankfulness.  I am glad for that.  :)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2015, 02:05:52 PM by Gina »
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Kat

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Re: Patriotism, nationalism, and statism as forms of idolatry
« Reply #50 on: September 27, 2015, 02:18:21 PM »


Hi Kat,

I agree with all you said, but you know as well as I do the light that shines in us is always proportional to the work Christ does in a believer, its not a question of hiding our light if God wills our light to shine, what ever light He gives us will shine in the darkness.

The light that shines from a believer will only attract those who the Father has given Christ which are his elect the few for the many hate the light and will most likely do what they can to extinguish the light if it were possible of course.

Not all scripture as you know is not going to be fulfilled in this age, Iím wondering if this scripture Mat 5:14 is for this aged or the next age, its still on my mind what age it fits in.

Rick my last response was directed to this post, and your very last comment in particular.

Mat 5:14  "You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.

When Christ said, "You are the light of the world," I don't believe He meant as in we are to be converting the whole world... but it seems that it is to any that has His Spirit/light indwelling they are a light to whatever little piece of the world they may live in.

Luke 11:33  "No one, when he has lit a lamp, puts it in a secret place or under a basket, but on a lampstand, that those who come in may see the light.

It is not a question of making people understand the truth, but if the Spirit is indwelling, Christ will shine His light through us... that is what I believe is meant by "let your light so shine before men."

Mat 5:16  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

I do not believe that this is reserved for the next age, but is how the chosen are to be living out the rest of their lives, being an example/witness of the whatever truth God has given us. We in no way perfect, and may not 'enlighten' a single person, but we still should be putting into practice what we are learning. But we should not live as the world does and just blend in with them, or hide this wonderful knowledge... and that doesn't necessarily mean even mentioning there is no hell/free will. By showing the fruit of the Spirit I believe that is letting our "light so shine."

Mat 5:15  Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.

Php 2:14  Do all things without complaining and disputing,
v. 15  that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,

Eph 5:8  For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light
v. 9  (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth),

Quote
Iíll try to rephrase it again out of love that you seem to think I lack

Certainly I have not, nor would I, make a judgment like that on you, sorry I came across as if I did.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Patriotism, nationalism, and statism as forms of idolatry
« Reply #51 on: September 27, 2015, 03:09:22 PM »


If you disagree that he has come to seek and to save those that are perishing, then you're arguing with Scripture.



Hi Dave,

Iím not arguing with scripture just arguing how its being portrayed, although Christ did come to seek and save that which is lost Ray is quite clear that the

Perhaps its just a misunderstanding between we two but that is my understanding concerning that scripture you mentioned. Unless Ray is incorrect about Christ not saving everyone in this age but I believe what Ray has taught.

God bless.

As I've already said, I also believe the whole world is not being saved in this age, only the few are being saved in this age.

IF we have any disagreement, it's in that "we" are lights in this world (assuming we are).  Now.  That's the 'few being saved now'.  I agree with what Kat has been saying.  If you agree with her, then you agree with me.

I'm done with that part of this thread.  I'll comment on how it began before it changed if asked or led to.       
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Rick

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Re: Patriotism, nationalism, and statism as forms of idolatry
« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2015, 03:11:16 PM »

Hi Gina,

First, I would like to say, your very welcome, youíre a wonderful asset to the forum Gina.  :)

I no longer desire to speak of these truths we learned from Ray to people who have not studied Rays papers, its not that I donít want to but the response from most are similar to Rays emails, not the nice ones of course.

I can personally tell you that I have talked to a particular all believing God fearing Christendom church goers concerning the doctrine of hell and watch the spittle come out from their mouth as they retorted in rejection to hell being a false doctrine.

Afterward, they got up and walked away from me. Believe it or not, there are some people that just donít want truth and a good example of that can be found in comments made by Rays detractors.

I do not pass judgement on them because I know its not in man or women to direct their own footsteps because we are not free from choice without cause.

To me its not about this coupleís attitude or lack of knowledge whom I was conversing with about the doctrine of hell but more about what is it God wants me to understand as well as how should I respond ?

I personally believe that everything we experience being both good and evil in this life is that God is teaching us something in that which is happening to us, there is something we are to learn from each experience.

To God, everything is about us, God is doing a strange work in us, as we see our house built on sand crashing down we see who and what we are and to me, I see changes being made in my understanding, I donít think about things in the same old way, Iím no longer interested in being number 1 any longer.

I took a good look at myself and all I saw was a poor pathetic wretched man, a man of sin. What is God going to do for me? I certainly cannot do anything on my own. 

Paul says to run the race and rightfully so we should but I also understand the race was decided before God created the earth who would be the elect, the ones who cross the finish line according to His counsel.

God bless you Gina.  :)
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Rick

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Re: Patriotism, nationalism, and statism as forms of idolatry
« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2015, 03:16:04 PM »


If you disagree that he has come to seek and to save those that are perishing, then you're arguing with Scripture.



Hi Dave,

Iím not arguing with scripture just arguing how its being portrayed, although Christ did come to seek and save that which is lost Ray is quite clear that the

Perhaps its just a misunderstanding between we two but that is my understanding concerning that scripture you mentioned. Unless Ray is incorrect about Christ not saving everyone in this age but I believe what Ray has taught.

God bless.

As I've already said, I also believe the whole world is not being saved in this age, only the few are being saved in this age.

IF we have any disagreement, it's in that "we" are lights in this world (assuming we are).  Now.  That's the 'few being saved now'.  I agree with what Kat has been saying.  If you agree with her, then you agree with me.

I'm done with that part of this thread.  I'll comment on how it began before it changed if asked or led to.       


Hi Dave,

Its apparent, like I had stated, its just a misunderstanding between you and I. I misconstrued what you were communicating to me, My apologies Dave.

I do agree with Kat as you said so we are all in agreement.   

God bless Dave.
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Rick

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Re: Patriotism, nationalism, and statism as forms of idolatry
« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2015, 04:32:45 PM »


Hi Kat,

I agree with all you said, but you know as well as I do the light that shines in us is always proportional to the work Christ does in a believer, its not a question of hiding our light if God wills our light to shine, what ever light He gives us will shine in the darkness.

The light that shines from a believer will only attract those who the Father has given Christ which are his elect the few for the many hate the light and will most likely do what they can to extinguish the light if it were possible of course.

Not all scripture as you know is not going to be fulfilled in this age, Iím wondering if this scripture Mat 5:14 is for this aged or the next age, its still on my mind what age it fits in.

Father in heaven.

. By showing the fruit of the Spirit I believe that is letting our "light so shine."




Hi Kat,

I wish for the sake of everyone on this forum I were more articulate, I donít always express myself as I should, as a result of my inability I cause confusion and sometimes contention.

I am in full agreement with your statement, that is how I believe too. I donít try to shine a light I donít have on my own, any light Christ gives me cannot be hid because that light becomes us and we are who we are in Christ , if Christ has given us His light it cannot doing anything but shine.

Whether people recognize that light is up to God who causes all to walk according to His counsel even if one believes their choices are free from cause they can no more direct their footsteps than we who have been enlighten can.

Most people in my life whom I have met are wonderful people but I believe they are wonderful because God has given them all the causes for them to be wonderful people, I donít know if that is your understanding but its mine as we speak.

I believe God controls everything even people too, I know there are people who think they control their own destiny, come and go as they please but these are also the same people who stand in the temple of God and proclaim to be god as we once did but no longer do because God has cause us to understand His truths.

Thank you Kat for your reply, God bless you too.  :)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2015, 04:35:51 PM by Rick »
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