How many people have ever lived on earth?

[John from Kentucky]

I agree with Kat.  I believe that the entirety of Scriptures indicate that you must have the breathe of life in your lungs in order to be a living soul.

If you have the breathe of life, then you are a living soul.

If you do not have the breathe of life, then you are a dead soul.


However, just because an unborn child does not have the breathe of life, is not a living soul per the Scriptures, it does not follow that it is O.K. to abort a fetus.

Those under the New Covenant do not have a bunch of rules of do's and dont's.

We are guided by the Spirit of God in our thoughts and actions.  We follow the law of love.  Love does no harm; therefore love fulfills all law.

Does abortion cause harm?  If it does, then it would be a sin under the law of God, and those who follow God will not do it.

The question of whether or not an unborn child is a living soul or not is separate from whether an abortion is lawful to a servant of God.

An unborn child is definitely human, it is living tissue, it should be treated with care and respect, but until a child is born and the breathe of life enters into it, I do not believe it is a living soul as that word is used in the Scriptures.

Does anyone have at least two clear Scriptures that say an unborn child is a living soul?

[Kat]

Neo, this is another place where you are all caught up in the politics of this world. I have shown you Scripture as to why I have stated and believe as I do... what goes on in this world is worldly/ungodly/corrupt and is intended to be this way. But I will not be dragged into debating the details of this.

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

If we are being prepared for the kingdom, I believe the Holy Spirit guides each of us in our choices to do what is righteous in His eyes in all matters.

Heb 13:18  Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things.

Titus 2:11  For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
v. 12  teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
v. 13  looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[microlink]

Kat, I agree with you about the human spirit and the breath of life. At one time in WWCG a debate raged over the topic of abortion, and whether it was wrong because it amounted to murder of a potential child of of God. The leadership proclaimed that abortion was wrong.  And I continue to believe that is morally wrong.

And thanks Kat for providing the link to the tread on the abortion question. It provided some further insight, especially your post which included reference to Job chapter 10. I hope I did not subvert the thread by introducing the abortion issue since your first post was one history of population numbers and not what has evolved from my post.

And I do agree with you and based upon the scriptures you gave that the spiritual life of a human being begins at the first breath (forgive me if I am putting words in your mouth). However I see that the decision ( we know the terrible situation about harvesting fetus body parts for money -UUGH) to abort a potential human being made in the image of God is wrong. It is different than a natural abortion, which happens for whatever natural reason. It is quiet different than killing a fellow human being. I is also different IMO from shooting a rodent or a moose.

Does it not boil down to the question of human motives, selfishness and personal gain (monetary or other). The carnal mind is enmity against God. Greed motivates many to perform evil acts.

Rom_8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Awaiting the day that the carnal mind and human nature will be gone.
Joe

[lurquer]

I agree with Kat.  I believe that the entirety of Scriptures indicate that you must have the breathe of life in your lungs in order to be a living soul.

Well that's great, John, now we can all say that we agree with Kat.

However, just because an unborn child does not have the breathe of life, is not a living soul per the Scriptures, it does not follow that it is O.K. to abort a fetus.

Why not?  What, specifically, is the crime of abortion?

Does abortion cause harm?  If it does, then it would be a sin under the law of God, and those who follow God will not do it.

Does it, or not?  What do you contend?  And WHO is harmed?


Kat, where did I bring any political discussion into this?  I responded to your assertions about what a fetus is or isn't.  Your thread here focused on how many souls will ultimately be in the Family of God.  You seemed to have that worked out pretty well in your mind and I was interested in how you treat the subject of those who died as yet unborn. YOU invoked a former thread on abortion.  I found your reasoning pertinent to THIS thread.  So I commented.  I have no political agenda; I don't follow politics, I don't vote, I'm not interested in learning about man's laws or a purported right to rule over other men.  OK?

What you have done is entered into a very philosophical, theoretical, discussion...that of the nature of the unborn.  I GET that the scriptures do not describe an embryo as a "living soul".  You, however, made a great leap by suggesting that they will NEVER become a living soul, if they died without inhaling air.  You have no scripture for that notion, but more importantly, you don't realize the consequences of that idea—whether it's true or not.  Most people, believers or not, consider abortion to be a moral issue. With your viewpoint, you essentially invalidate any morality of abortion!  It's neither right, nor wrong... It just is.  I find this intriguing...

But part of the consequences of your idea is the question of what then are fetuses, and what should we be permitted (in God's eyes) to do with their dead bodies, once aborted?  That's why I asked.  If you yet hold to the idea that "abortion is still wrong", I ask why?  See my above questions to JFK...

Also, in your view, it follows that the mother of a baby which she greatly desired to have, having carried to full term but had it die during birth, actually lost...exactly nothing.  Her love for this child was a fantasy. She cannot ever hope to see or know it; a figment of her imagination ultimately, no better than a stuffed doll.  It never was, and it was never going to be a child of God.  A burial for the unborn then carries no more meaning than a burial for a lawn ornament. That's some tough theology, sister! 

[Kat]

The politics that I see here is you're bringing in what the world's view is on this and the raging debate among Christendom and politicians. What do they know of spiritual matters? Opinions are just that, it is the Scripture where we find wisdom. I do not care to discuss what is being done in the world, I want to keep myself separate from this present evil age and all that it is involved with doing.

Gal 1:4  who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,

There is a Scripture in Job that does indicate that to die in the womb does end that life's existence.

Job 10:18  'Why then have You brought me out of the womb? Oh, that I had perished and no eye had seen me!
v. 19  I would have been as though I had not been. I would have been carried from the womb to the grave. (NKJV)

Job 10:19 I would have been just as if I had not come into being; I would have been fetched from the belly to the tomb. (CLV)

Job 10:19  as if I had never existed; carried from the womb to the grave. (ISV)

Yes this is a difficult thing to comprehend, but I do not decide what it should be, but if it is what the Scripture teach, then so be it. God knows the end from the beginning and has determined everything that will be in this world. If He has determined that a person will be born, then they will be and nothing can stop that from happening and He will give that baby the spirit of life when it is born. But He also knows the exact number of all those that were conceived, but were never meant to be born alive as well.

Jer 1:5  "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

As far as what should happen to the dead, Jesus answered that as well.

Mat 8:22  But Jesus said to him, "Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[indianabob]

Friend Neo,

Much of interest in what you have said.

My short personal view;

Sin is sin because it hurts or does damage to someone, somehow.

Stealing from a friend hurts the person who steals.
Hating another person poisons the person who hates.

Caveat: Unless their human conscience is seared.

In similar manner, selfishly and intentionally aborting a potential human life hurts the person who decides to do it, because they should know that the life would continue for a normal life span if not killed or at least it can do so and therefore is to them a sin.

Of course being hurt by willful sin requires that the sinner be aware of the hurt and the sin.
If a person is already so warped in their character due to disease or terrible environment or a life of drugs then they may not be able to conceive of the hurt the way a normal healthy person would.

In any case the reason God forbids sin is for our personal benefit so that we may not need to suffer from our own corrupt attitude. That is why I think, grace is absolutely necessary. Penance and works don't achieve the needed result.

I hope I have added a little light to the discussion.
Indiana Bob

[lurquer]

Friend Bob,

Thank you for your thoughtful comments. But I really have no dog in this hunt, to be honest.  I don't  and can't have abortions; my wife hasn't and won't, and I haven't (nor want) any discriminating power over the subject anyway.  My opinions don't matter to anyone but me.

HOWEVER, you said:

selfishly and intentionally aborting a potential human life hurts the person who decides to do it, because they should know that the life would continue for a normal life span if not killed or at least it can do so and therefore is to them a sin.

...Causing me to once again interject my unwanted opinion (I can't help it):

Unfortunately, the majority of women who have abortions do not know that life "would continue" if they chose not to abort.  In fact, most are quite un-regretful...believing, like Kat, that their deliberate act of terminating their embryo only confirms God's ultimate plan of never having 'known" the child in the first place.  It was always synthetic...a test of evil...a hologram prepared  to 'humble them'. It was never actually a "human life" after all.

I noticed no one answered my earlier questions.  That's OK, but I would more appreciate the honesty of saying, "I just don't know". Instead of implying that you DO, but that others (me) aren't worthy of sharing that knowledge.

Anyhow, Kat's scriptural citation to her theory from Job is rather weak and interpretive in my opinion.  Just not very convincing. And worse, brings up even more unanswerable questions, like:

If abortion actually terminates a life FOREVER, then how is it not worse than murder?  For killing a "living soul" is only a temporary sentence... Eventually, all become children of God.  Those killed in the womb by actual children of God, however, are permanently wiped. 

Just seems very oily to me. And knowing what I know about the 'death trade' (not just in embryonic tissue, mind you, but of the dead 'NOT buried by the dead'--rather chopped and shopped), I can't see any light in this...Only darkness.

So you see the source of my consternation when people here imply that the killing of the unborn is not sin...nor is it anything at all. It's just a humbling experience..like stubbing your toe on the corner of the couch after having a glass of wine too many. (Don't ask me how I know how bad that hurts).

[judy]

All I know is I loved my unborn children, I felt their life move in me. They were alive. I could not kill that human life. I lost two children. I still wonder what they might have been like. I was lucky to have four born alive and well. I'm not God and I don't always think like God, I am human and I don't like this subject discussed without any compassion, some are so cold towards this. Why do mothers cry when their children are born but don't breathe, because they died but had been alive. God help us.

[John from Kentucky]

Neo,

Your questions were not answered because of your attitude, which is not of God.

But, again, they were answered.  I stated a Scriptural thought from Paul, which states love causes no harm and thus fulfills all law.

Also, Kat's citation from the Book of Job was not weak or her opinion, but Scriptural truth that can be backed up by other Scriptures.  In the mouth of two or three witnesses, let every word be established.

You do need to do a lot more study of the Scriptures, but only if guided by the Spirit of God.

[Kat]

Neo, you are so close minded on this that you are ignoring and even rejecting Scripture that is brought to your attention, yet I don't see where you have brought a single Scripture to bare on this. I do not take this subject lightly, but I do believe what the Scripture says on this.

The sovereign God is who determines who lives, it is He that actually brings a baby to be born to give this "breath of the spirit of life." Many babies are lost and the mother can do nothing to stop it and yes women make dreadful choices that stop the process, but God is responsible for all life and is the ultimate cause that determines this.

If abortion actually terminates a life FOREVER, then how is it not worse than murder?  For killing a "living soul" is only a temporary sentence... Eventually, all become children of God.  Those killed in the womb by actual children of God, however, are permanently wiped.

Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Gen 7:22  all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, of all that was on the dry land, died.

Your comments are a contradiction to these Scripture and what Ray taught. Can you not see that these Scripture show that the 'soul' is in the breath of life? It is with the breath that God gives the 'spirit' of life and a person is then a soul, which is life, consciousness, awareness. Ray spoke on this many times.

http://bible-truths.com/part1.htm ----------------------

The "soul" is the seat of sensation, consciousness, and feelings, not the body or the spirit. It is the spirit that imparts life to the body and the body then becomes a living soul (Gen. 2:7).

A thorough study of the word "soul" in the Scriptures proves that it is used of consciousness, feelings, and emotions. Hence, "sensation" is a good word to define its usage.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,240.0.html ---

It is true that we all speak of "THE soul" as if there is a separate entity inside of our body that is called "the soul."  Not true. Without the spirit there is NO SOUL. Without the body there is NO SOUL.  Take a blue piece if transparent plastic or cellophane. Place it half way over a same size piece of yellow cellophane. You will have blue on one side, yellow on the other, and GREEN in the middle. The blue is the body, the yellow is the spirit, and the GREEN IS THE SOUL.  Notice that there is NO SOUL without the blue body and the yellow spirit. Separate the blue and yellow cellophane and the GREEN soul disappears. This is exactly how the human soul must be combined with a body and spirit, or IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST. They are very closely related and appear to overlap, but there are distinction between soul and spirit. Understood?  Good.
---------------------------------------------------------------

I am not nonchalance about this subject, I certainly know what's it's like to have that precious life growing inside you, there is great joy and expectation. But I also know the pain of losing a baby that dies before it is born, it is extremely difficult. I know this subject carriers a lot of emotional angst, I struggled many years trying to understand all this... but now that I have come to see and believe the Scriptural truth on it, which I do not think is "weak and interpretive," I now have peace.

John 8:31  Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
v. 32  And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Friend Bob,

Thank you for your thoughtful comments. But I really have no dog in this hunt, to be honest.  I don't  and can't have abortions; my wife hasn't and won't, and I haven't (nor want) any discriminating power over the subject anyway.  My opinions don't matter to anyone but me.

HOWEVER, you said:

selfishly and intentionally aborting a potential human life hurts the person who decides to do it, because they should know that the life would continue for a normal life span if not killed or at least it can do so and therefore is to them a sin.

...Causing me to once again interject my unwanted opinion (I can't help it):

Unfortunately, the majority of women who have abortions do not know that life "would continue" if they chose not to abort.  In fact, most are quite un-regretful...believing, like Kat, that their deliberate act of terminating their embryo only confirms God's ultimate plan of never having 'known" the child in the first place.  It was always synthetic...a test of evil...a hologram prepared  to 'humble them'. It was never actually a "human life" after all.

I noticed no one answered my earlier questions.  That's OK, but I would more appreciate the honesty of saying, "I just don't know". Instead of implying that you DO, but that others (me) aren't worthy of sharing that knowledge.

Anyhow, Kat's scriptural citation to her theory from Job is rather weak and interpretive in my opinion.  Just not very convincing. And worse, brings up even more unanswerable questions, like:

If abortion actually terminates a life FOREVER, then how is it not worse than murder?  For killing a "living soul" is only a temporary sentence... Eventually, all become children of God.  Those killed in the womb by actual children of God, however, are permanently wiped. 

Just seems very oily to me. And knowing what I know about the 'death trade' (not just in embryonic tissue, mind you, but of the dead 'NOT buried by the dead'--rather chopped and shopped), I can't see any light in this...Only darkness.

So you see the source of my consternation when people here imply that the killing of the unborn is not sin...nor is it anything at all. It's just a humbling experience..like stubbing your toe on the corner of the couch after having a glass of wine too many. (Don't ask me how I know how bad that hurts).

1 Timothy 6:20-21 O Timothy, guard that which is committed unto thee, turning away from the profane babblings and oppositions of the knowledge which is falsely so called; which some professing have erred concerning the faith.

1 Titus 3:8-11 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

You were given a multitude of counselors which all testify to the same truth regarding this matter. All scripture is given by the inspiration of God including Job.

You only affirm your despising of God's word when you turn such a marvelous truth into a thing to be mocked and rediculed;  "[/b]In fact, most are quite un-regretful...believing, like Kat, that their deliberate act of terminating their embryo only confirms God's ultimate plan of never having 'known" the child in the first place.  It was always synthetic...a test of evil...a hologram prepared  to 'humble them'. It was never actually a "human life" after all. [/b]"

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

God is sovereign and in control. These witnesses of scripture which testify to the truth are not Kat's words but God's. Woe indeed!

[judy]

The taking of a life of a potential child of God is not the way to solve a problem. We have come from children are blessings to they are just more baggage. The root is fear and selfishness. I know because it's what I experienced when an unexpected pregnancy took place. I fought it but it took 5 months to accept it. Once I did, which I believe God wanted to bend me more to His will, I lost the baby. Then the guilt came. It was not a good time.

[Colin]

Dear all

I have carefully read through the entire thread from its beginning and note how it veered away from its original subject.  No matter, it brought to light a topic which members have shown great interest in and where we all may learn as we seek more insight. 
Abortion is a very emotional topic and cannot be dealt with at "arm's length" like some other topics.  My wife and I were unable to have children and experienced only miscarriages, so I can feel for those who have had similar traumas. 
Questions about lost foetuses (through "natural" abortion) have also crossed my mind, wondering whether they will ever be included in a future resurrection. (I think that is only a "natural" reaction).  They were deemed (by us as possible parents) during the very early period of pregnancy as potential family members, in much the same way as we read concerning ourselves; we are said to be "begotten, but not yet actually born".  Ray clarified for us, the one Greek word carries both meanings, and contrary to common teaching we are not "born again" now - that event is yet future, at our resurrection. 

We could be likened to the foetal stage and it is true we can indeed "abort" and not be in the first resurrection.  Ray dealt with that in his March 2008 Bible Study entitled "Can we lose God's Spirit and Aeonian Life"?   I am only saying, that in thinking of the abortion topic, we could, using a parable, be regarded as an under-developed spiritual foetus.....I am not suggesting any more than that with regard to literal foetuses.

Continuing the analogy, if perchance we DO abort or are not amongst the chosen and miss the first resurrection, do we have an opportunity to be in a later one?  Yes, we do and we would go on to experience the lake of fire to refine and further develop what is lacking – with, might I suggest, the goal of "being given the breath of spiritual life".     Is there a parallel there with aborted foetuses - I cannot tell.

When God granted fertility to several barren women, so that they could conceive, He intended that the pregnancies reach full-term.   No doubt, being in charge, He prevented any miscarriages. 

Rom 4:17  (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

The dead, in the case of Sarai, was that her womb was considered "dead".   

In the case of my wife and myself, God knew in advance that she would become pregnant and that she would subsequently lose the foetus naturally.....just as He knows everything else before it occurs.  We accepted the fact that it happened according to His plans.  Whether or not any aborted foetuses will exist again is something we simply do not know.   It ought not to be a point of contention.   Speculation, maybe.
I am fully persuaded of the scriptures (which have been mentioned) which show that God gives the breath of life in order that a "living soul" will result.

A number of girls/women opt for abortion deliberately and for a number of reasons.  There have been instances where a pregnancy that occurred far too early in life has been terminated for the sake of, say, mental health, with a subsequent later pregnancy being successful with a joyful outcome.   Are we to attempt to remove someone else's mote in the eye under those circumstances? 

As for the growing accounts we hear of the trade in "foetal spare parts", well that comes into another category, again with a variety of motives.....good and evil.   The gruesome details do not bear repeating and most people find the procedures appalling.     It is, as has been said, all part of this present evil world which needs the return of Christ to restore true values.

Another similar practice under discussion in some parliaments is that of euthanasia.   Emotions can run high, with both sides claiming to be "right".
Those performing medical procedures of abortion and euthanasia are condemned as "murderers".  One particular murderer we know very well was Saul - who was turned around to become a key figure in God's plan.  His motives were far more sinister than the medical folk who "kill".   So, if he could be converted, then so will they be.
Just a few thoughts from an old man feeling for the woes of those affected by abortion problems.    Colin

[Dave in Tenn]

Thanks, Colin.

[lurquer]

Colin, I agree with all that you said.  I think that abortion, when done for convenience--as a form of birth control (as it almost ALWAYS is done), is therefore the intentional killing of an unborn human, and is thus sin.

I do not condemn those who have done it.  If there is any condemnation, I reserve it for those in the business of doing it--for the actors and the operators in the industry.  And God will judge them.

What I was tryting to get out of Kat was whether or not, from her study of the scriptgures, the act of abortion WAS killing, and WAS sin.  For some reason, she couldn't bring herself to answer that, and instead continued with her attack on her imaginary belief that I reject Ray's teaching on the "soul" and "when a life becomes a life", et cetera. So, to end the ignorance, let me say once again that I DO NOT DISAGREE with her or Ray on this point.

I don't know if Ray ever spoke on abortion, or the ultimate nature of an embryonic human.  I don't know if his views would line up with Kat's or not.  I don't care either.  It is, as you said, "a matter of speculation," for there is nothing concrete in the scriptures to clear up this debate (if it even is a debate). 

But there are very real ramifications to believing (and teaching) that there is really nothing wrong with abortion, and that the industry and its practitioners are being unfairly demonized. I don't and can't see how this can be a true follower of Christ's point of view. 

[Gina]

Hi, Collin

I've been reading everybody's comments too.  It's sad that you and your wife lost so many fetuses children.   Jesus came to save the lost.

Luke 1:31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are ...

Conceive definition:  become pregnant with (a child).

Pregnant definition:  (of a woman or female animal) having a child or young developing in the uterus.

This is such a hot topic right now and it's because of the emotion that people feel because of who is involved-babies, children.  I don't think this is the place to be tearing others apart about it.... ya know... that's what we're talking about essentially isn't it?  I mean all ya have to do if you're in doubt about what goes on during an abortion is google it.  It's not pretty.  It's definitely the taking of lives.

While it is true that ancient Israel sacrificed children in the fire to Molech, it may have been relatively few--dozens, perhaps hundreds.  But America's abortion clinics have killed an estimated 40 million unborn babies. That's more killings than were committed by Saddam Hussein, Adolph Hitler, and Mao Zetong, COMBINED!

We are poisoning our children's minds, their souls, their bodies, and their very spirits. We are killing them by the millions before they draw even their first breath. Do you think that we shall go unpunished for these unspeakable abominations?

http://bible-truths.com/towers.htm


Someone said "we all killed Jesus."  We did not.

Acts 5:27-30 When they had brought them [the apostles], they stood them before the Council. The high priest questioned them, saying, "We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men. "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom YOU [not "we"] had put to death by hanging Him on a cross.

Peter didn't include himself or any of the other apostles in those actions.

But I do agree with Ray - children are being murdered {well, he said killed, but all you have to do is a simple youtuble search and you'll see what is really happening}i n the womb.  It's frightening.

And then do another search and you will see the nurses in the "Operating" rooms telling their side of things.

Then do another search and you'll find women who were forced or felt forced into having abortions and you will get a very clear picture of who was harmed.  Let there be no doubt in your minds about when life begins.  Life begins at the moment of conception per the word of God:

Exodus 21:22... "When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if there is harm, then" [you can read the rest]

Galations 1:15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother's womb [some versions say "before I was born" but he was definitely selected before he was ever CONCEIVED in the womb] and called me by his grace, was pleased

When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby [not the "fetus"] leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

There was actually a real, live BABY {living child} in her womb.  Maybe he hadn't taken his first breath of air but he was definitely alive - a LIVING SOUL. 

I remember during my second pregnancy with the daughter I would have to later give up for adoption.  I cried through the entire thing knowing I'd have to give her up.  I was devasted.   Abortion was presented to me over and over and over again and I wouldn't go that route.  I couldn't out of a clear conscience do something like that because I knew [had faith] what was happening.  I had a growing child in my stomach but she was very still and calm.  One day I was at work and the office manager got angry at another secretary and marched her into her office down the hall from my desk and she slammed that door so hard it made such a boom that Lauren leaped inside of me!  It startled Lauren. The loud noise scared my baby.  It scared her.  And it was just a noise.  But she jolted so hard in my stomach I almost fell out of my chair.  That happened when I was five months pregnant. 

Doctors and "experts" say that a child isn't viable until you can detect a heartbeat.  It's strange to me because doctors should know that if the nervous system were not in place in the beginning that the heart wouldn't beat at all?  But doctors apparently don't have the instruments to detect brain waves in a developing baby.  But they know that these are developing babies.  They are unborn babies.  And mothers know they are pregnant.  Everything changes.  Your mood, your temperature, your waistline, your bustline, your backside, everything immediately goes into "Oh, I see you're about to have a baby!" mode.  Immediately!  My point is, it's not okay to abort (kill) your child all because YOU or a DOCTOR can't yet detect the heartbeat.  Not judging, but it's not okay.  It's not, there, there, we understand -- you were young.  No, you will be held accountable.  You will give an account and per Ray you will be punished if you don't repent and acknowledge that you did wrong and never do that again and take steps to make sure that you never have to face that choice again.  It is so sad to see women who are grieving over their decision.  They can't undo what they did!  They have to live with their thoughts and I don't mind that they live with their grief, until God decides to release and forgive and heal and comfort them.  I hate abortion!

In all the places of the bible when you read, you will NEVER see a pregnancy referred to as a "fetus" but always a "child/ren," or a "son/s" or a "daughter."  Never a fetus.  I don't know where that word came from, but I suspect it came from the same people who made up the word homosexual.

Fetus defined:  embryo, unborn baby/child

I have known women who have had multiple abortions and were devastated by it.  I have known women who got pregnant and lost their babies and were just as devastated by it.  I have known a girl who got pregnant at 15 and when her mother saw that she wasn't using her monthly period items, forced her to have an abortion.

But there is never a good reason for having an abortion and it is well known that 95% of abortions take place because women (and men) are using it as a method of birth control.  There are fewer than 5% per statistics that are aborted due to rape or incest, and even that is not a good reason to have an abortion, in my humble opinion.

I believe that these are children and we will see them again one day.  I look forward to that day as do the mothers who grieve and are  " poor in spirit " / feeling contrite over their decision to abort (kill/murder) their babies in their wombs.  That is the silver lining in all of this. 

It's a selfish, sick act.  But the thought has crossed my mind before because i  was scared of what others would think if they knew I was doing things I had no business doing as an unmarried woman (it was a selfish reason and I knew it immediately and I knew I would have to stand before God one day and account for that act and that scared me more!), but just because a bird (a thought) lands on your head does not mean you have to let it take up residence there.  You're not guilty for having a thought.   

And I'm with Ray when he said, I THANK GOD that I never raped little children or murdered them and cut their heads off.  I thank God, too, that God spared me from the act of abortion.  I am not a perfect person, but God had mercy on me.  I thank God for not letting me go that route.  I thank God that I have learned that sex is not a game to be toyed with.  Because it produces CHILDREN.

But the abortion doctors ...  1 Corinthians 16:22    It is not their decision to make. 

As for euthanasia, that's another thread.  So I'm not even going to go there.  One has nothing to do with the other.  When you're speeding up the process to keep someone from experiencing a ton of pain and it's out of compassion, and that person has requested it, maybe there is a case for that, I don't know.  All I know is, it's not right to take a baby's life.  They had no choice in the matter.

[Kat]

I think everybody has had a chance to voice their opinion on the sub-topic that has arisen. So there is no need to continue this debate.

In closing this thread I will add what I found to be interesting info about the original topic - stars.

A star absorbs all radiation that falls on it, but it also radiates back into space much more than it absorbs. Thus a star is a black body that glows with great brilliance!

On a really exceptional night, with no Moon and far from any source of lights, a person with very good eyesight may be able to see 2000-2500 stars at any one time.

Also on a good night, you can see about 19,000,000,000,000,000 miles, easily. That's 19 quadrillion miles, the approximate distance to the bright star Deneb in Cygnus, which is prominent in the evening skies of Fall and Winter. Deneb is bright enough to be seen virtually anywhere in the Northern hemisphere, and in fact from almost anywhere in the inhabited world. There is another star, Eta Carina, that is a little more than twice as far away, or about 44 quadrillion miles. But Eta Carina is faint, and not well placed for observers in most of the Northern hemisphere. Of the brightest 50 stars visible to the human eye from Earth, the least intrinsically bright is Alpha Centauri, which is still more than 1.5 times more luminous than our sun, 4.37 light-years away more than 25.6 trillion miles and cannot be easily seen from most of the Northern Hemisphere.  Those are stars, but both the Andromeda Galaxy and the Triangulum Galaxy are also visible under certain conditions, and are roughly 15 and 18 quintillion miles away! (One quintillion is 10^18!)

Fun Fact:
Name of number   number of zeros   
Trillion                  12   (12,000,000,000,000)
Quadrillion            15   
Quintillion             18   
Sextillion              21   
Septillion              24   
Octillion                27
Nonillion               30   
Decillion               33   
Undecillion            36   
Duodecillion          39   
Tredecillion           42   
Quatttuor-decillion 45   
Quindecillion         48   
Sexdecillion           51   
Septen-decillion     54   
Octodecillion         57   
Novemdecillion      60   
Vigintillion             63   
Centillion              303