> General Discussions
Spiritual death
indianabob:
Well said JFK.
I loved your reference to the "A" team and Mr. T.
I recall that he had to be put to sleep to fly out on a mission.
Even such a tough man had his limitations and phobias.
thanks, Indiana Bob
John from Kentucky:
Tell me it ain't true I-Bob.
I didn't think Mr. T had any weaknesses. He beat up Rocky Balboa.
rick:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on September 30, 2015, 04:00:19 PM ---
--- Quote from: Jeff on September 29, 2015, 07:18:22 PM ---
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on September 29, 2015, 04:20:36 PM ---
--- Quote from: Jeff on September 29, 2015, 03:50:36 PM ---Is this an accurate understanding?
1. Mankind has never been spiritually alive (save Christ) and will NOT be until Christ returns.
2. We can have an understanding of certain Spiritual Truths (per God's will) by His Spirit living within us (yet that doesn't make us spiritually alive - maybe just spiritually aware.)
3. We have no option but to sin, because of our spiritual weakness, but we are to repent, knowing that our sins are forgiven. This is the process of refining our carnal selves, through trials overcome, by God's grace and prompting, and love.
4. We do not have God's love, but He is "lov-ing" us in an ongoing process, which culminates with our becoming spiritually alive, at or after the Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
If this is true then we are not spiritually alive. No one is. Without God's love in us, we have no way of escaping carnality, we can only hope to have certain victories in our lives, as our refinement continues.
--- End quote ---
I would say not accurate.
The Elect are baptized with the Holy Spirit.
With this Spirit, God lives within us, in our innermost being, our heart.
We are then in constant communication with God. God's Spirit within us leads us to do the works of Jesus.
This Spirit gives us understanding of the Scriptures and Spiritual things. Without the Spirit, there is no understanding.
We have the down payment of the Spirit within us.
However, no one is truly born of the Spirit until the 1st Resurrection.
--- End quote ---
And yet we sin. We can't not sin. How can we be spiritually alive? Doesn't it mean "free from sin"? I believe that the elect are filled with Gods Spirit, but I don't find Scripture or Ray's teaching that tells us we're "alive". My understanding is that to be alive we need to not be sinning (sin is death.) It's an either/or. We all have varying degrees of inspiration from God's Holy Spirit, but we are still carnal, and spiritually dead.
A down payment is something promised in the future.
--- End quote ---
No, a down payment is in the present, not the future.
When you make a down payment on a house, you make a current payment. The balance is put off into the future.
For those Elect, who have God's Spirit in them, then they are spiritually alive now because the Spirit of God is LIFE itself. We have the earnest or down payment of the Spirit for we can do and understand spiritual things.
God does not condemn His begotten children, His Elect selected before creation. Jesus deals with us individually as the Great Shepherd Who looks over His lambs.
Of course, we still sin because we are not born again until the Resurrection of the Just at the 1st Resurrection, when we will be like the wind.
But we are special now. God watches over and protects His Elect, now at the present time. It will not go well for anyone to harm or bother God's Elect. As Mr. T would say, "I pity the fool".
--- End quote ---
Well, Ray taught the reason its so easy to believe that one has free will is because God is spirit and we cannot detect Gods spirit through our 5 senses, so God is in us and around us, He is everywhere but one cannot detect God with their senses.
So, is your meaning spiritually alive as in we now have spiritual life by the indwelling of God, but if so, would it not be Gods spirit that is spiritually alive and not ours ? But Ray also taught that the spirit in us is the breathe of life which God gave Adam.
So we can say that the breathe of life and spirit of life is one in the same so how are you understanding spiritually alive ?
Ray says the spirit has no understanding, what do you say about the spirit ? Has in understanding or not ?
I know you had made mention that if one does not have the spirit of God, they cannot learn the things of God but I don’t know about that sort of thing because Rays detractors certainly knew what Ray was teaching otherwise they could not of made any retort against his teaching.
Ray also said they don’t believe the scriptures but they know what the scriptures teach but they just don’t believe what the scriptures teach.
I would agree that it takes the spirit of God to help us or to get us to believe what the scriptures
teach. Or should I say to see the gospel within the gospel, but having said that Ray taught that the gospel of Christ can be found way back in the book of Genesis when God said to Abraham, in your seed shall I bless all the nations of the earth.
I just think we throw the word spirit around to much and confuse believers by doing so.
God bless.
Jeff:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on September 30, 2015, 04:00:19 PM ---
--- Quote from: Jeff on September 29, 2015, 07:18:22 PM ---
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on September 29, 2015, 04:20:36 PM ---
--- Quote from: Jeff on September 29, 2015, 03:50:36 PM ---Is this an accurate understanding?
1. Mankind has never been spiritually alive (save Christ) and will NOT be until Christ returns.
2. We can have an understanding of certain Spiritual Truths (per God's will) by His Spirit living within us (yet that doesn't make us spiritually alive - maybe just spiritually aware.)
3. We have no option but to sin, because of our spiritual weakness, but we are to repent, knowing that our sins are forgiven. This is the process of refining our carnal selves, through trials overcome, by God's grace and prompting, and love.
4. We do not have God's love, but He is "lov-ing" us in an ongoing process, which culminates with our becoming spiritually alive, at or after the Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
If this is true then we are not spiritually alive. No one is. Without God's love in us, we have no way of escaping carnality, we can only hope to have certain victories in our lives, as our refinement continues.
--- End quote ---
I would say not accurate.
The Elect are baptized with the Holy Spirit.
With this Spirit, God lives within us, in our innermost being, our heart.
We are then in constant communication with God. God's Spirit within us leads us to do the works of Jesus.
This Spirit gives us understanding of the Scriptures and Spiritual things. Without the Spirit, there is no understanding.
We have the down payment of the Spirit within us.
However, no one is truly born of the Spirit until the 1st Resurrection.
--- End quote ---
And yet we sin. We can't not sin. How can we be spiritually alive? Doesn't it mean "free from sin"? I believe that the elect are filled with Gods Spirit, but I don't find Scripture or Ray's teaching that tells us we're "alive". My understanding is that to be alive we need to not be sinning (sin is death.) It's an either/or. We all have varying degrees of inspiration from God's Holy Spirit, but we are still carnal, and spiritually dead.
A down payment is something promised in the future.
--- End quote ---
No, a down payment is in the present, not the future.
When you make a down payment on a house, you make a current payment. The balance is put off into the future.
For those Elect, who have God's Spirit in them, then they are spiritually alive now because the Spirit of God is LIFE itself. We have the earnest or down payment of the Spirit for we can do and understand spiritual things.
God does not condemn His begotten children, His Elect selected before creation. Jesus deals with us individually as the Great Shepherd Who looks over His lambs.
Of course, we still sin because we are not born again until the Resurrection of the Just at the 1st Resurrection, when we will be like the wind.
But we are special now. God watches over and protects His Elect, now at the present time. It will not go well for anyone to harm or bother God's Elect. As Mr. T would say, "I pity the fool".
--- End quote ---
I should have more explicit. A down payment is something that shows intent regarding a promise. The down payment is a show of faith of something that will culminate at a future date.
Kat:
--- Quote from: Rick on September 30, 2015, 05:53:59 PM ---Well, Ray taught the reason its so easy to believe that one has free will is because God is spirit and we cannot detect Gods spirit through our 5 senses, so God is in us and around us, He is everywhere but one cannot detect God with their senses.
So, is your meaning spiritually alive as in we now have spiritual life by the indwelling of God, but if so, would it not be Gods spirit that is spiritually alive and not ours ? But Ray also taught that the spirit in us is the breathe of life which God gave Adam.
So we can say that the breathe of life and spirit of life is one in the same so how are you understanding spiritually alive ?
Ray says the spirit has no understanding, what do you say about the spirit ? Has in understanding or not ?
I know you had made mention that if one does not have the spirit of God, they cannot learn the things of God but I don’t know about that sort of thing because Rays detractors certainly knew what Ray was teaching otherwise they could not of made any retort against his teaching.
Ray also said they don’t believe the scriptures but they know what the scriptures teach but they just don’t believe what the scriptures teach.
I would agree that it takes the spirit of God to help us or to get us to believe what the scriptures
teach. Or should I say to see the gospel within the gospel, but having said that Ray taught that the gospel of Christ can be found way back in the book of Genesis when God said to Abraham, in your seed shall I bless all the nations of the earth.
I just think we throw the word spirit around to much and confuse believers by doing so.
--- End quote ---
Hi Rick, here are a few Scripture that should help you see how the Holy Spirit works. Notice that when Scripture is referring to the Holy Spirit of God it will have a capital S.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
1Cor 2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
v. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
v. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
v. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
v. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
And here are a few emails to help as well.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4176.0.html ------
Hi Ray,
Is the human spirit the place where God dwells in us? “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit (capital S) is spirit (lower case s)?” John 3:6
Thanks,
Dwight
Dear Dwight:
ALL men (and animals) have a spirit. This spirit gives life to the body and produces soul (feelings, thinking, emotions, etc.). But God dwells in our hearts and minds by way of His HOLY Spirit, which is a different spirit.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,305.0.html -----
Dear Mark:
I will make a few COMMENTS...........
Hello Ray,
I have recently been looking into the workings of the Spirit and have some questions. Please guide me in the right direction.
First concerning Jesus, When did he receive the Spirit of the Lord?
COMMENT: Jesus Christ WAS CONCEIVED by the Holy Spirit!
In Is 11:1-3 it talks about the Spirit resting upon Him as opposed to those in the Old Testament whom the Spirit came upon for a specific purpose and then departed. It appears that John had the Spirit on him until Jesus' baptism, and then it seems like it left him and resided in Jesus permanently.
COMMENT: Nonsense.
Prior to his baptism, Jesus did no recorded supernatural works, did he not have the Spirit from birth? What is your take on this?
COMMENT: "Prior to baptism, Jesus had no recorded supernatural works..." Oh really? And you think that Jesus living a SINLESS LIFE as a teenager is less of a "supernatural work" than turning water into wine?
Secondly, do those in "the church" have the Spirit?
COMMENT: NO, they have "a" spirit.
If so, how did it come, why do they have it, and why is it so unproductive?
COMMENT: Oh, but their spirit of Satan is most productive. Along with doing "many wonderful works," they have succeeded in "deceiving the WHOLE WORLD."
If not, how do those in "His church" get it, since it is most often that thay come out of "the church"?
COMMENT: Coming out of the church is the only way that one will be given the Holy Spirit of God.
Speaking for myself, it certainly seems that Jesus came quickly to me a couple of months ago with new ears. After this, virtually everything I was hearing in "the church" made no sense anymore. Did I not have the Spirit prior to this?
COMMENT: I would not presume to say if or when you received God's Spirit, as I do not know you, what you believe, or how you live.
Thanks for your help.
Mark
COMMENT: When sin no longer "has dominion over you," you will know that God's Holy Spirit is operating in you. Not that you will not sin, but sin will not lord it over you; you will no longer be a slave to sin; you will not be fighting sin ever moment of your day; you will be given peace in that area of your life.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1483.0.html ----
WHAT IS IT TO BE HOLY? IS ONLY GOD HOLY?
THANKS DON
Dear Don:
All of God's people must be holy. Holy means to be in close contact with God, to be consecrated to God, to be set aside for special use by God, to be a Saint of God.
And yes, we are to "BE holy"--"But as He which has called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation [Gk: 'conduct and behaviour']" (I Pet. 1:15-16). One can only be holy if he has the Holy Spirit of God.
God be with you,
Ray
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