God's Voice

[Dave in Tenn]

Jeff...I posted those to clarify what the words were and gave it in various translations.  I THOUGHT I was adding to what you said.  I wasn't trying to 'preach' to anybody. 

[cheekie3]

Jeff -

It is much more difficult to express clearly our thoughts and intentions in writing than it is when we speak face to face.

I do not believe your original post was addressed completely.

I believe Dave in Tenn provided clarity to these verses.

I believe John from Kentucky stressed the need not to worry.

To go back to your original post regarding our thoughts -

The Scriptures state that our thoughts (and steps) are directed by The Lord Himself.

I believe that this applies for all human beings in every age, and not His Elect Called Out Ones in this current age.

Even when our thoughts go from here to there, and we say to ourselves, where did that thought come from, our thoughts are still directed by Our Heavenly Father.

I constantly ask The Lord to judge my heart (motives) and confirm to me if they are pure and pleasing to Him; and if not, I ask Him to purge them from my being.

I understand that our motives dictate our thoughts, which dictate our conversations and actions.

So if our motives in our hearts are pure, it logically follows that our thoughts should be pure.

But, we are still a work in progress and sin from time to time; even though we desire not to - and we need to repent of our impure desires and thoughts and forgive all others, and ask Our Heavenly Father to forgive us and cleanse us.

I understand that we are all from time to time in a situation we do not want to be in - and we cry out to Our Lord and Saviour to release us from it - and it does not happen.

It is His Will be done - and we do not always understand why - but I believe we will ultimately understand why we were placed in these hurtful and painful situations.

I hope I have addressed some of your concerns about our thoughts. 

In Holy Spirit.

Kind Regards.

George.

[Colin]

Hi Jeff, John, Dave, George and all other members

George is quite correct, in that "It is much more difficult to express clearly our thoughts and intentions in writing, than it is when we speak face to face".     Being aware of that, I always ask God to put the "right words" into my thoughts as I type, because I do not wish to give offence.

We all have varying backgrounds and experiences and these do contribute to the manner in which we react and respond to one another.     Jesus Christ had a "motley bunch" of disciples, who differed from each other and to whom He gave instruction.   We would be well advised to consider what He told them.


Mat 18:1  At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
Mat 18:2  And Jesus called a little child [Greek paidion  = half grown boy or girl] unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Mat 18:3  And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4  Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5  And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

In our dealings with each other, that does not mean we should use "baby talk"....it is the attitude of a "paidion" that we are to display, one of humility.       Any semblance of giving offence is to be avoided.

Mat 18:6  But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 

Who are these "little ones" who believe in Christ?   The ones we are to avoid offending?    They represent our brothers and sisters who come to this forum for instruction, clarification, discussion and sharing. 
   
Mat 18:7  Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

When Jesus said "woe", I am sure He meant He would be displeased with those giving offence.    For that reason, I feel that we ought to "take a breath" before putting fingers to keyboard, to consider the impact our words might have.   
Mat 18:8  Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. 

Ray often explained what Jesus meant about "cutting off your hand or foot" (or fingers) if they cause offence.

Mat 18:10  Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

The message I get from those verses is that we should treat our fellow contributors,(who can be likened to "these little ones") with love, one towards another.    In other words, the opposite of despising.     Where is there any place for harshness?   The more experienced members should be better able to set a righteous and humble example.   
Sadly, as Jesus said, "offences must come"....and they do.   We need therefore to be on guard against being numbered amongst those who offend...

Paul also was mindful of this weakness, which we all have....
Act 24:14  But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Act 24:15  And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Act 24:16  And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.
He said he had to "work at it" (exercise myself)   - a lesson for us too.
And it covers all cases - whether dealing with Jews, Gentiles as well as the ones who are of the church of God......which we are claiming to be.
1Cor 10:31  Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
1Cor 10:32  Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Our curriculum now includes learning to encourage, not to disparage.   We are in training for the opportunity to be assistants in the millennial age, where the job will include managing all kinds of people, with all kinds of impairments, backgrounds, degrees of ignorance, personality variance.   Right now all of us have weaknesses and some strengths; the forum can be a vehicle whereby we can sharpen up skills that we will be called upon to put into practice, later on.   Let us treat each other as "fellow teachers in training" with dignity and love.     Otherwise we might be vainly displaying our supposed knowledge, in much the same way as did the Pharisees.   

Let us think before we type!   Better still....ask God to "clean up our thinking" and attitude before we lift a finger to type.   Remember what Jesus said about "cutting off our hand".        I have just read this back to myself and, with God's help, will do my best to do what I am encouraging everybody else to do.    Colin

[John from Kentucky]

"THE KISS OF DEATH"

[Is your love pure or fake?]

I hear a lot of "huggie huggie kissie kissie" pious platitudes from the mouths of today's religious hobbyists. Personally, it makes me a little ill in my midsection. Most of it is as phony as a three-dollar bill. Could you be guilty of using this emotional charade to deceive those you wish to impress?

There is nothing wrong with hugs, as I am quite fond of them myself. And there is nothing wrong with proper kissing. Paul instructs the assemblies to greet each with "an holy kiss" four times, and Peter instructs its use once, as a "kiss of charity."

The Greek word used is "philema." A "holy" kiss is merely a pure, sacred, ceremonial kiss—a simple kiss. Men no longer kiss men as a form of greeting non-family members in most western cultures—I'm personally kinda glad of that!

People also engage in "hugs and kisses" in their speech and writing. And this too can be fine and acceptable depending upon how it is done. At sixty-five, I still put a few xxxx's and oooo's at the bottom of a birthday card to my wife.

However, there is another way that hugs and kisses are used and overdone in which it is a camouflaged front to mask the real person that is no more holy than was Judas.

Had the twelve other Apostles already received the Holy Spirit of God, they would not have had to ask Jesus "who" is was that was about to betray Him—they would have known. Thank God that it is not possible to "deceive the very elect" (Matt. 24:24).

Like Satan's ministers of righteousness (II Cor. 11:15), these deceivers are wolves, but they don't come as wolves. These false teachers and deceivers:

    "...come to you in SHEEP'S clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves" (Matt. 7:15).

But you could spot one of these "wolves" a mile off, couldn't you? Just look for the GIANT TEETH that Little Red Riding Hood encountered, right?

    "O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched [Gk: 'to fascinate by false representations] you..." (Gal. 3:1).

The "wolves" COME IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING! You don't see their teeth. They don't show their teeth. They only show you a huggie huggie kissie kissie pious religious smile. THAT my friends, that pious front, IS the "sheep's clothing." Wolves BITE, and their bite can be deadly:

    "But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you be not consumed one of another" (Gal. 5:15).

Now then, where are we to find these "wolves and sheep's clothing" coming with hugs and kisses to deceive and devour? Well, wherever the SHEEP are found.

    "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous [savage] wolves enter in among YOU, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men [and women] arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them" (Acts 20:29-30).

Didn't we all witness this ourselves in recent months? Are all the wolves gone now? Of course not—there will always be wolves wherever there are sheep.

I'm warning you: Wolves come in "sheep's clothing," full of smiles, and hugs, and kisses. You will not see their teeth until it is too late.

Judas was a wolf in sheep's clothing. The apostles saw a sheep—Jesus saw a wolf. What was Judas' ultimate sheep's camouflage? Why, wasn't it a simple, sincere, pure, godly "kiss?" Think again.

    "Now he that betrayed Him give them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, the same is He: hold Him fast. And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed Him" (Matt. 26:48-49).

You have all seen this drama acted out many times in films—a simple little peck on Jesus' cheek. Oh really?

The five Scriptures using the word "kiss" from Paul and Peter, always used the Greek word "philema" which means "kiss" and nothing else. In Luke 22:48 we read this:

    "But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betray you the Son of man with a kiss [Gk: a simple 'philema' kiss]?"

But in Matt. 26:48, we find something totally different. Judas told the elders and chief priest:

    "...whomsoever I shall [PHILEO—passionate fondness] kiss, that same is He..."

Judas did not have a "philema" kiss in mind at all. The "kiss" in Matt. 26:48 is a "phileo" kiss, and it means a fond, affectionate, passionate kiss, not a simple "philemo kiss." And the elders and high priest knew the different in these two words. One was a peck on the cheek, but Judas determined to use a more a passionate, huggie huggie kissie kissie display in his attempt to betray Jesus to the devouring and ravaging wolves.

This is really intriguing stuff. Now after Judas tells the priest and elders what kind of a kiss he will give Jesus [a phileo kiss] to betray Jesus, He actually delivers this kiss. And how does he do that? He does it with yet another Greek word for kiss, which is, "kataphileo" mean "to kiss EARNESTLY."

This "kataphileo kiss" is used three other times in Scriptures:

    Luke 7:45—"You gave me no kiss [no affectionate 'phileo' kiss, Jesus admonishes His disciples] but this woman since the time I came in has not ceased to kiss ['kataphileo kisses'—earnestly] My feet."

    Luke 15:20—"And he [the prodigal son] arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him [earnestly and passionately with a 'kataphileo kisses']."

    Acts 20:37—"And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck, and kissed him [with 'kataphileo kisses' of great passion and earnest]."

Is it not abundantly clear that this super emotional use of hugs and kisses was used only on the most RARE occasions of deep and profound emotional circumstances? But this is not proper conduct for everyday behavior. See these over-pious charlatans for what they are. Be suspect of those who use super-pious and sanctimonious hugs and kisses every day of the week.

Now to the Judas Kiss of Death:

    "And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, Master; and KISSED HIM."

The Greek is "kisses"—multiple kisses, with 'kataphilio kisses, just as we find in every single use of this word in Scriptures I showed above.

No, Judas did not betray Jesus with a peck on the cheek; he deceitfully delivered a "huggie huggie kissie kissie, fraudulent hugs and KISSES OF DEATH!

What must we learn from all this? Whenever we pretend to be Christ-like but it's all a charade, we too are guilty of giving Christ a Judas kiss of death. What a disgusting display of the carnal mind and flesh, Judas has left us. Some have vengeance in their heart, others vanity, others bitterness and hatred, and yet others uncontrollable sins of the flesh, but they try to camouflage their evils with a plethora of hugs and kisses to all.

Don't be afraid to hug; don't be afraid to kiss, but beware of such phony displays of pious emotions, as they could be your "KISS OF DEATH."

A spiritual hug to you all, from my heart,

Ray

[Dave in Tenn]

I'll end with this:

These 'verses' I don't see as "commandments" to be followed for fear of punishment.  I see them as promises.  The Father is essentially telling me, "I've got it all under control.  Live."  I didn't want to (nor do I now) turn these into meat for a theological discussion.

A new vision of the future lifted my depression and cynicism in one night.  I still 'have it' (depression) and they still are a comfort to me.  That's what I see, and I don't have any desire to un-see it.

[Colin]

Well John, I note your rapid and barbed reply.    That really is a fine article of Ray's, which you chose to post and   I have read it several times.   

I wondered why it was that you selected it to form your response.  Several ideas came to mind:   that you considered that what had been proposed – to exercise and show love towards others, rather than cause any discomfort or offence - was somehow "contrived" and a false kind of affection; that is the subject matter of Ray's article.   You appear to be insinuating that such an approach is one which you feel is not befitting for the forum.   

Again, with no accompanying comment from you, it is hard to draw a definite conclusion.

Then again, I wondered if you were upset by the idea suggested - of treating each other respectfully, as we share ideas, may not align perfectly with yours.    Not knowing your personal background, all I can go on is the impression which you create, namely of a man soon given to being irritated.   

What other possibilities might there be, I asked myself.    Perhaps it is one of you being "well versed" in many (all?) of Ray's writings and you felt that somewhere in this article there was something that needed to be said in relation to this thread.     You did not elaborate.

I read Ray's article yet again and I found an interesting number of thoughts towards the end of it....such as :-
What must we learn from all this? Whenever we pretend to be Christ-like, but it's all a charade, we too are guilty of giving Christ a Judas kiss of death. What a disgusting display of the carnal mind and flesh, Judas has left us. Some have vengeance in their heart, others vanity, others bitterness and hatred, and yet others uncontrollable sins of the flesh, but they try to camouflage their evils with a plethora of hugs and kisses to all.

The idea of camouflage is an interesting one.   Particularly if it involves, as Ray listed, feelings of vengeance, vanity, bitterness, hatred.   These are all opposites of genuine love....agreed?   

Then I reread your response and thought, how much could I discern in what you contributed this time?   What percentage seemed to be composed of love - as against, say, vengeance, vanity, bitterness?  What score would you give yourself?   Tell us your motives....I shall not attempt to do so on your behalf.....

If I am "reading you wrongly", then I apologise  - but we are told we should discern correctly.

Heb 5:12  For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Heb 5:13  For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Could you provide me with some clarification, so I may understand your response better?    Thank you  Colin

[arion]

Where is there any place for harshness?   The more experienced members should be better able to set a righteous and humble example.  


I think you hit the nail on the head here.  And I think that perhaps we need to be reminded of something that Paul said as well:

1Co 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

If we understand any of the deeper truths that God has revealed to us through Ray's teaching, in the end it's still God who has enlightened us.  We can take no credit for any of the understanding that we have.  I think we need to keep in mind that all sorts of people are on this forum and read the forum as guests.  Those that are more learned and understand some of the deeper truths need to be cognizant that their are people here still coming to grasp with things that others now take for granted.  We all struggle with different things and truly we are all in this journey of faith together.  We shouldn't be a hinderance to others but a help.

Certainly at times Christ used sarcasm to the religious potentates of his day and Ray also used sarcasm towards those who were intentionally obtuse and who were steeped in hypocrisy.  But the vast majority of the people that come to this forum certainly need to be treated with respect and understanding.  If you understand something that I don't then it's God who gave you the understanding that he has not yet given me.  In time God may give me the same understanding as well.  There is no room for haughtiness or superiority one over the other imo.

[repottinger]

Thanks for your comments on the risks of hurting or offending others here, Jeff,  Colin, and Arion. As I've mentioned one time before, in the short time that I've been communicating on the forum, I've also been struck by the harsh tone of some of the comments, and find it hard to understand why we would want to use such language with brothers and sisters in Christ (as opposed to what we might do in ancient times with the Pharisees or now with the modern-day apologists for the churches of Babylon). I don't know about anyone else here, but I don't know any of the other members of the forum personally, and so don't know much about their relative strength or weakness in the faith; thus, I would want to be very careful about not offending them or weakening their faith:

Romans 14 (AKJV)

14 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. 14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17 for the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. 20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. 21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

I Corinthians 8 (AKJV)

8 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. 2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him. 4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. 5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 but to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. 10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; 11 and through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. 13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

As I've also written a few times before in private messages to a couple of other members, people here sometimes seem to take offense at the comments of other members, and the others seem to genuinely not know why they felt that way. In my opinion (and it's only an opinion, because I don't pretend to know what they're thinking, nor have I asked them), I think it can be mainly due to what they perceive as the tone of the comments, rather than what is actually written. Part of the problem, maybe, is the mode of communication on internet forums—using the written as opposed to the spoken word. I'm sure that each has its advantages and disadvantages, but one problem with writing, I think, is that it can be misinterpreted so easily because the participants aren't able to see each others' expressions and gestures or hear their tone of voice. Thus, what may have been intended as a humorous comment can be taken totally seriously, or something offered in a warm spirit of trying to be helpful can be seen as blunt, uncaring, cold, or critical. One way of describing it would be as an example of the "process" of communication being so much more important than the "content." Unfortunately, when writing, it's hard to have much process because all that the written word usually lends itself to is content (unless, I suppose, a lot of effort is made by each writer to carefully explain each comment that could possibly be misinterpreted, which can obviously be very difficult and time-consuming).
So, I think that it might be helpful if we try to make an effort to be mindful of how the people to whom we're writing might possibly construe some of our statements, even if we think that we ourselves might never perceive them in such a way. I really think that it might help us to avoid a lot of misunderstandings, conflict, and hurt feelings.
Your brother in Christ,
Randy

[Jeff]

Dave,

I owe you an apology. I read what's his name's response and made an assumption.  I hope you'll forgive me.

Jeff

[lilitalienboi16]

I have read through the comments and watched as feelings were hurt. I have only to remind everyone that rebuke, reproof, correction, all these things are not without there proper place but are necessary. They are as necessary and important as loving one another. Jesus didn't just rebuke the pharisees, He rebukes the entire church in revelation, He rebukes us, He corrects us, He chastens us, He loves us (among other things which He does). These are all components of His love. Remember that we are to be like Jesus.

Proverbs 27:5-6 Open rebuke is better than secret love. Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

Proverbs 28:23 He that rebuketh a man afterwards shall find more favour than he that flattereth with the tongue.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

God bless,
Alex

[rick]

I have read through the comments and watched as feelings were hurt. I have only to remind everyone that rebuke, reproof, correction, all these things are not without there proper place but are necessary. They are as necessary and important as loving one another. Jesus didn't just rebuke the pharisees, He rebukes the entire church in revelation, He rebukes us, He corrects us, He chastens us, He loves us (among other things which He does). These are all components of His love. Remember that we are to be like Jesus.

Proverbs 27:5-6 Open rebuke is better than secret love. Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

Proverbs 28:23 He that rebuketh a man afterwards shall find more favour than he that flattereth with the tongue.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

God bless,
Alex

[Dave in Tenn]

Dave,

I owe you an apology. I read what's his name's response and made an assumption.  I hope you'll forgive me.

Jeff

Don't worry about anything.   

[lareli]

The Father is essentially telling me, "I've got it all under control.  Live."

[rick]

The Father is essentially telling me, "I've got it all under control.  Live."

Hi Largeli,

I would say in our strength we are weak but in our weakness we are strong and in His strength we live.

Good to hear from you again my brother.

God bless you, seriously, God bless you and everyone here.   

[repottinger]

Thank you for that, Rick.
God bless you, too.
Sincerely,
Randy