> General Discussions
Losing the Holy Spirit
lilitalienboi16:
Dear Brethren,
I may have forgotten with time such a simple scriptural truth but alas today I found myself in a position to answer just such a question and believe I may have misspoke.
I found where ray speaks about this subject and he argues that we can lose the holy spirit. Here is where I found this:
CAN WE LOSE GOD'S SPIRIT AND EONIAN LIFE?
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7047.0.html --------------------------
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
See you can not really differentiate between those two. Spirit is life, spirit doesn’t die. Flesh dies. If you have life in you, you have God’s Spirit. If you have God’s Spirit in you, you have life. It doesn’t mean that you’re not going to physically die, but at least while you’re living you have some other kind of life in you. If you don’t have that life in you, then you’re no different than an infidel that has no religion, no faith and maybe has not even any morality as to why he should live above any other citizens or criminals or whatever.
You know it is an amazing thing that we have two and a half million people in prisons in America. Out of those two and a half million at least two million of them are Christians. So almost all criminals in prisons are Christians.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life…
Now here is the point I want to make, spirit is life and life is spirit. Now back to verse 15.
Can we lose out… well we read the Scripture that if you sin willfully - willingly there is no more sacrifice for you. Now look at this verse, many people probably never really saw it before.
1 John 3:15 Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal (eonian or age lasting) life abiding (the Greek is “staying or “REMAINING”) in him.
So the Greek is staying or remaining. Now if you just read that without all the background that I’m giving you, then you get the feeling that, well he won't be given God’s abiding life. No, he already has it. The only way something cannot stay in you or not remain in you, is if it’s in you. Do you follow that? It’s in you.
He’s not talking to Barbarians here or infidels, he’s talking to the congregation who have the Spirit of God. But he says if you hate your brother the spirit of God will no longer stay with you, it will no longer be in you. If the Spirit of God is not in you, you are no longer His. Then you are going to the judgment. That’s just how simple that is. All through these Scriptures if you read carefully, maybe it doesn’t have it just like this, but this is just a poor translation. But if you read Concordant and Rotherham and all, they will tell you to ‘stay’ - ‘remain.’ It means to remain, but it won’t remain. You see it’s there, but it’s coming out.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For the context of my situation, I told three people who approached me with this question that we cannot lose the spirit of God. If we lose it, its because we never had it. I continued that the elect of God cannot be lost. God will not lose those that are His.
So... here is my delima. Yes, God cannot lose that are His, we know this. (Ray answers that in an email - http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2059.msg16747.html#msg16747)
Here are the scriptures:
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
1 Peter 1:1-3
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Here then is the subtle nuance. Is it truth to say then that the elect of God cannot be lost but simply because this is true doesn't mean that ALONG THE WAY to being justified by God and ultimately saved that an elect may not have some point in the past lost that holy spirit but then God as part of the process gave it back? Or is it that once the holy spirit is lost that God does not give it back to a man until the great white throne? Are there any more scriptures which show this idea that we can lose the holy spirit of God?
I know this might seem like I'm splitting hairs here... but I want to make sure I am speaking truthfully and this one little question that was asked me forced me to look at this in a perspective, with all it nuances, that I had not thought considered more deeply.
Thanks for all the insight.
God bless,
Alex
Rhys 🕊:
From the same article Ray says -
Now I have the subtitle, ‘Is “once saved, always saved” Scripturally true or false?’ Well yes, of course it is true. The only thing is WHEN are you saved, you see?
It seems to answer it for me. The elect may go through many things but the outcome will be the same as God has willed for them.
Rhys
Kat:
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on October 06, 2015, 08:57:28 PM ---
Now here is the point I want to make, spirit is life and life is spirit. Now back to verse 15.
Can we lose out… well we read the Scripture that if you sin willfully - willingly there is no more sacrifice for you. Now look at this verse, many people probably never really saw it before.
1 John 3:15 Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal (eonian or age lasting) life abiding (the Greek is “staying or “REMAINING”) in him.
So the Greek is staying or remaining. Now if you just read that without all the background that I’m giving you, then you get the feeling that, well he won't be given God’s abiding life. No, he already has it. The only way something cannot stay in you or not remain in you, is if it’s in you. Do you follow that? It’s in you.
--- End quote ---
Hi Alex, here is the Scripture you are focus on here, now here is an interesting comment Christ made.
John 15:5 `I am the vine, ye the branches; he who is remaining in Me, and I in him, this one doth bear much fruit, because apart from Me ye are not able to do anything;
v. 6 if any one may not remain in Me, he was cast forth without as the branch, and was withered, and they gather them, and cast to fire, and they are burned; (Young's)
I have often thought that the parable of the Sower and the seed could be speaking of those who have their eyes opened (receive the Holy Spirit?), but do not endure to the end. So as you wonder can a person loose the Holy Spirit, this does seem like it could apply to some of those in this parable.
Matt 13:18 "Therefore hear the parable of the sower:
v. 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.
I can see how this verse 19 is speaking of the church in general.
Mat 13:20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
Mat 13:21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Now look how so many embrace these truths initially, but cannot endure at all... did they receive the Spirit?
Mat 13:22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
Maybe a religious hobbyist? We've had a few people come through here that really embraced "the word" of truth, but didn't last too long, not here anyway.
Mat 13:23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."
So I'm wondering if there are those who have the Holy Spirit and their eyes are opened, but obviously were not elected or chosen to endure to the end, it was just a temporary thing. I do not see this as the "first love" thing though, because in Hebrews, it does say specifically that when a person is actually enlightened, "partakers" of the Holy Spirit and then "falls away"... it's for good, in this life anyway.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers (G3353- participant, that is, a sharer; by implication an associate: - fellow, partaker, partner) of the Holy Spirit,
v. 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
v. 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
v. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
v. 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
Now a second witness is what Paul said that he was not so arrogant as to suppose he could not fall away.
1Co 9:26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
v. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified. (NKJV)
Easy to read version
1Co 9:26 So I run like someone who has a goal. I fight like a boxer who is hitting something, not just the air.
v. 27 It is my own body I fight to make it do what I want. I do this so that I won't miss getting the prize myself after telling others about it.
So obviously there are those that do not endure to the end in this life, or there would be no need for the warning about not enduring.
Rev 17:14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful."
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Now there are many who assume that they have the Holy Spirit, the whole church, but actually never have... and there are the 'tares' as well, that I don't think ever actually have the Holy Spirit, because they remain with the elect (Matt 13:28-29). So there is a lot to think about, and a person certainly should not be complacent about there situation of understanding truth, that's for sure.
But even for the elect it is a long process with much ups and downs, and I really don't think that the Holy Spirit indwelling is so obvious... Scripture says you will know the Spirit is indwelling, by their fruit.
Matt 7:16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
v. 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
There is also much comfort in Christ's words.
John 10:27 according as I said to you: My sheep My voice do hear, and I know them, and they follow Me,
v. 28 and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish--to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of My hand;
v. 29 My Father, who hath given to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck out of the hand of My Father;
v. 30 I and the Father are one.' (Young's)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
lilitalienboi16:
Rhys and Kat, thanks a lot. Really appreciate the digging you did on this one Kat and there is definitely a lot think about.
Hebrews definitely seems to imply that once the holy spirit departs, it does not return to a person until the next age. I agree that this falling away of hebrews is not the same as that of leaving our first love, this specifies to those being enlightened and partaking--Even crucifying the Son of God again! I don't think that's the same as leaving our first love though, thats more like the prodigal son walking off and rolling around in his own filth for a while but certainly not crucifying the Son of God again and putting Him to open shame.
Thanks again both of you and God bless. If anyone has more to add please feel free.
Kindly,
Alex
rick:
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on October 06, 2015, 08:57:28 PM ---
Can we lose out… well we read the Scripture that if you sin willfully - willingly there is no more sacrifice for you. Now look at this verse, many people probably never really saw it before.
Alex
--- End quote ---
Hi Alex,
Sounds like what I used to hear in Christendom, one can lose the Holy Spirit, the unpardonable sin and oh yeah, hell is the place one goes for one of the above two.
Just sounds like a free willed person to me, the kind you find in Christendom.
One is either the elect of God or their not, I don’t believe there is any such thing as the unpardonable sin because all will eventually be saved so therefore all sin will be forgiven.
So those whom were chosen by God to be and elect, not that they had some special quality that cause God to choose them but God chose them before He created them.
All those whom God has not chosen in this age will be in the white throne judgement not because of any special quality they have but because God chose them to.
What ever Gods intentions are concerning His creatures will come to pass and let us all be thankful that its Gods will that all be saved and we know and believe Gods will, will be done in this aged and every other aged that follows.
Why should anyone worry about anything when God is in control of all things?
P.s. All sin will be forgiven, past, present and future, I know this personally because I know personally that its Gods will that all be saved so it stands to reason that its Gods intentions to forgive all so that all can be saved and all will be saved.
Its not a question of will you be saved because its Gods intentions that you will be saved and saved you will be.
The only question is when will you be saved and that is Gods business and not ours.
God bless. :)
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
Go to full version