> General Discussions

The Cross

(1/7) > >>

Jeff:
I don't know if this will be offensive, but it's something I don't understand, and I need to.  If my question is offensive then delete it, but I need to ask this.

Jesus suffered on the tree.  He was maimed, tortured, suffocated, had spikes pounded into his flesh.  He knew great pain and He felt fear.  Didn't the Apostle Paul know greater suffering than Christ?

Is a woman being held captive by some sadistic man, tortured, and raped for years, less than what Jesus experienced?  Jesus knew His Father intimately and knew that He himself was connected to God. He knew Truth. He was afraid - but that torture was over in a day. 

What about children who suffer at the hand of an abusive parent for 15 years, or the child who is sexually assaulted by someone who should have protected them, resulting in a lifetime of pain and suffering?

God allows Satan to bring suffering into our lives.  I understand.  But how can we suffer more than the One who created us?

The sin in this world from the beginning is beyond my ability to reconcile.  The evil we force on each other, the hatred, the destruction we bring to one another - I can't understand.  I can't even begin to comprehend.

I've read everything Ray shared here more times than I can remember - since 2009, but I can't grasp the intensity of evil we experience - what all experience - I can't just say "it's God's will" and move on. 

Why would God allow someone to commit suicide?

We torture our fellow humans, we murder and rape children, we drop satan-inspired bombs on millions of people. We are Sodom and Gomorrah a thousand times over. War, famine, genocide, fear, hatred, children who are raised to hate and destroy, mass murder, pointless, senseless killing.  Our depravity is and always has been profound - perfected.  We spend billion$ coming up with new ways to kill each other.

Where is our Savior?  How much suffering is enough?  God's will?

Somebody, please help me understand.

Extol:
Dear Jeff,

I think Jesus suffered a lot more than just one day at the Cross...and I think the Father has too. He knows what longsuffering is...it is one of the fruits of God's spirit.

lilitalienboi16:

--- Quote from: Jeff on October 08, 2015, 09:09:53 PM ---I don't know if this will be offensive, but it's something I don't understand, and I need to.  If my question is offensive then delete it, but I need to ask this.

Jesus suffered on the tree.  He was maimed, tortured, suffocated, had spikes pounded into his flesh.  He knew great pain and He felt fear.  Didn't the Apostle Paul know greater suffering than Christ?

Is a woman being held captive by some sadistic man, tortured, and raped for years, less than what Jesus experienced?  Jesus knew His Father intimately and knew that He himself was connected to God. He knew Truth. He was afraid - but that torture was over in a day. 

What about children who suffer at the hand of an abusive parent for 15 years, or the child who is sexually assaulted by someone who should have protected them, resulting in a lifetime of pain and suffering?

God allows Satan to bring suffering into our lives.  I understand.  But how can we suffer more than the One who created us?

The sin in this world from the beginning is beyond my ability to reconcile.  The evil we force on each other, the hatred, the destruction we bring to one another - I can't understand.  I can't even begin to comprehend.

I've read everything Ray shared here more times than I can remember - since 2009, but I can't grasp the intensity of evil we experience - what all experience - I can't just say "it's God's will" and move on. 

Why would God allow someone to commit suicide?

We torture our fellow humans, we murder and rape children, we drop satan-inspired bombs on millions of people. We are Sodom and Gomorrah a thousand times over. War, famine, genocide, fear, hatred, children who are raised to hate and destroy, mass murder, pointless, senseless killing.  Our depravity is and always has been profound - perfected.  We spend billion$ coming up with new ways to kill each other.

Where is our Savior?  How much suffering is enough?  God's will?

Somebody, please help me understand.

--- End quote ---

There is only one thing God 'allows' and that's the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

No human will ever suffer more than God did. The cross is but an infinitesimal fraction of the suffering God endured to reconcile all things to Himself, notwithstanding the tremendous suffering He endured just to bring this creation into existence. Consider for example what He terms the 'birthing' of wisdom or where His knowledge of evil came from.

Evil is a necessary part of the creation in order to bring to pass the things that must occur for humanity to become like God.

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

There are simply to many things you are forgetting in your emotional state. You say you've read and re-read ray's writings but it seems to me you have missed quiet a bit. Who created man subject to vanity, with a weak heart?

Does God need to force evil men to do the things they do? Why was the waster created to destroy? Is death the end of all things? Is the evil we suffer for a finite period of time by the wisdom of God who has subjected the whole creation in its ultimate destiny of becoming like Him unacceptable? Do the wicked and evil go unpunished? Shall a man rape forever and not incur upon himself the WRATH of God? Is God deaf, is He blind, does He sleep? Is He far off to the oppressed and the broken hearted? Do we not live and move and have our being in Him?

Let me share with you some wisdom a man long ago learned after he questioned God and lamented his situation (and for good reason, he had suffered the loss of all things, can you say the same?) even to the point of wishing he had never been born!

Job 38:1-40
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?\
24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are?
36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?
39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,
40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?
41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

There are many evils in this life that are hard to look beyond and many times may seem excessive for us. Yet God says He frames evil, which means no matter how out of control it may seem, it never goes beyond the limits which God has set for it. He has promised by His word, and sealed with the blood of His own, the future of all mankind. Though these momentary afflictions can seem a sore travail, unpleasent, they cannot be compared to the glory that is going to be revealed in us and the entire human race. In Jesus, not only do we see the whole creation reconciled, we see its future. God became like man so that man could become like God. Is God not just in all this? Even I speak these things knowing only the tiniest of fraction of the things God has planned for His family. When we become as God then have we only just began to live. Which means all of this is hardly even the starting line. Gird up your loins man! God is all around you. Focus on the things that are good and lovely and let God handle the rest.

Philippians 4:5-9
5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

He is the God of peace! It's going to be okay, I promise! ;)

God bless,
Alex

cheekie3:
Jeff -

Someone whose three month old son tragically died said that no one loved her son more than her.

I believe Our Father and Our Saviour loved her son more than she did; as His Love is greater than ours.

I also believe that all suffering each of us all have is shared by Him.

Each of us have our own share of pain and suffering - but He has all of our combined aggregated pain and suffering.

He shares His Great Love with us - and He shares our great pain and suffering with us.

He is in total control of all things - but not remote of the pain and suffering we all experience - as He is part of all of us and we are all part of Him.

It is s like the pain a mother or father has when their child is suffering - except He has suffered the child's pain with the child.

He forces us all to suffer - and He suffers with each and every human being.

The Father also suffered with Jesus the pain Jesus suffered on the Cross and all that led to the Cross.

I believe that the suffering of Jesus leading to the cross, and on the cross was the greatest imposed on a human being.

I too hate all the evil in the world - and Our Heavenly Father states that Jesus loves Righteousness and hates wickedness.

I hope this helps.

Kind Regards.

In Holy Spirit.

George.

Jeff:
Job suffered, but that's the point . He suffered greatly and through no fault of his own. When an innocent child suffers at the hand of someone who should have protected him or her, how is that less than what God suffered?  How, in His name is it not more?  We are feeble and I'll-equipped to cope.

I can believe that God suffers when a child is sexually abused and murdered, but where do I go from there?  I'm struggling to understand how that can benefit anyone.

We are evil, as a race, beyond comprehension.  We seem no better than Sodom - worse even. Where is our Savior?

Have faith?  The evil we bring, the hatred in our hearts, the depravity, is more than we should be able to bear.

If a child is raped and murdered God is not allowing this?  I beg to differ.  God is Soverign. If you saw a child being raped, you in your sinful, carnal nature, you would do nothing? Is it not God who prompts us to act?!

I don't know the mind of God, but I can not.  In my sinful, natural state, I'm to abhor things like this, I know in my spirit that these things are evil.

God put an end to this evil once, and only God can put an end to what we've wrought on this earth now.  I'll ask again, where is our Savior?

I understand the benefit of trials and tribulations and I thank God for them and ask for strength to endure.  What does a 5 year old girl have to fall back on as her step father is beating her or worse?

God IS SOVERIEGN! He is responsible, WE are accountable.

We sit by in our chairs and watch while 100,000 die in Syria, while madmen rape women in order to convert them to Islam.  Rather than live this evil, and be content, and not be anxious for anything, these women take their own lives.

Why?  Justify this.  Help me understand. Platitudes and assurances aren't enough.  Where do the Scriptures allow this and WHY?

I'm not blaming God, but to assume that Ray's papers tell us everything is foolish.  I can understand if you want to end this thread because it reaches out beyond what he was shown, but this site is a tribute to God, foremost. Period.  This is about God.  If you think the work ended with Ray then, so be it.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page