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[repottinger]

Dear Jeff,
The only thing I can add to all of the fantastic comments that you’ve already received is a few things that we read in the scriptures. First, as Ray said so many times, ALL is of God.

Romans 11:36, AKJV

36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

I Corinthians 8:5-6, AKJV

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 but to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

I Corinthians 11:12, AKJV

12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

II Corinthians 5:18, AKJV

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Hebrews 2:10, AKJV

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Second, all things work together for good to those who are predestined to salvation by God.

Romans 8:28, AKJV

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Ephesians 1:11, AKJV

11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Third, Christ is the Saviour of all the world and God will have all to be saved, and so all are predestined to eventually be called to salvation.

I Timothy 2:3-4, AKJV

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I Timothy 4:10, AKJV

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

I John 4:14, AKJV

14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

However, we do not know or understand all of God’s means of achieving these ends, and will never be able to do so in this life, because we are not God:

Job 38:4-7, AKJV

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?
declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest?
or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened?
or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 when the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Isaiah 55:8-9, AKJV

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Romans 9:14-23, AKJV

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I hope that this might be helpful to you.
Your brother in Christ,
Randy

[Jeff]

Colin,

What you wrote was well said and thoughtful. The message, if I understand, is that we are all buffeted from every direction, and are completely dependent on God to deliver us.  I find myself thinking that Jesus had a benefit that we don't yet have.  He was completely dependent on the Father, just as we are, but we lack the faith that Christ had (I do). Jesus knew who He was, where He came from, and where He was going.  He knew.  And while He had the same human experience that we have, we are like the disciples in the boat.  We have the faith with which God has blessed us, but we don't have the insight or vision of Christ.  Jesus knew He was the Lamb of God.

1 Corinthians 13:12King James Version (KJV)

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

I lack the vision that would give me confidence in my place in God's Kingdom.  I know that and accept it, and pray for more faith, understanding and wisdom, but Jesus is God.  Yeshua Ben Elohim. 

Colossians 2:17
KJV
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Jesus was able to see and understand the bigger picture, while we languish in the shadows, gleaning what can from God, Christ, and faithful teachers, and I'm grateful beyond measure for that, but long for God's Kingdom on earth. We all do.

I'm so thankful for what I have in the body of Christ, and whatever part I might have, if any, in God's plan for the salvation of mankind - in my spirit I long for so much more understanding, here and now.

You have a good and godly heart Colin, and I thank God for you, and everyone here. The belief in the Scriptures is, in this place of worship, strong beyond measure in all the world.  I believe that.

Peace,
Jeff

[Jeff]

Dear Jeff,
The only thing I can add to all of the fantastic comments that you’ve already received is a few things that we read in the scriptures. First, as Ray said so many times, ALL is of God.

II Corinthians 5:18, AKJV:

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Second, all things work together for good to those who are predestined to salvation by God.

Romans 8:28, AKJV:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Third, God is the Saviour of all men and will have all to be saved, and so all will be called to salvation.

I Timothy 2:3-4, AKJV

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I Timothy 4:10, AKJV

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

However, we do not know or understand all of God’s means of achieving these ends, and will never be able to do so in this life, because we are not God:

Job 38:4-7, AKJV

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?
declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest?
or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened?
or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 when the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Isaiah 55:8-9, AKJV

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I hope that this might be helpful to you.
Your brother in Christ,
Randy

Thank you Randy.  I take the Scripture you shared to heart and it gives me confidence to keep moving forward. Everything here, the Truths that God gave to Ray, the insight that continues to multiply as we pray, study, and grow, is a testament to the goodness of God, and His plan of salvation for all.

Jeff

[repottinger]

You're very welcome, Jeff; I'm truly happy to hear that. I will pray for the peace of God to keep your heart and mind through Christ Jesus.
Sincerely,
Randy

[octoberose]

The beginning of this thread was Jeff asking if Paul and others knew more suffering than Christ. What i want to add is that in the history of the workd there has never been a more evil thing than the creator of the universe dying for the sins of the created. Jesus not only died, but he died with the weight of all these sins you speak about on him. He was separated from his Father for the first time in his existence- for us.  He sweat drops of blood before subjecting himself to this terrible thing. When Paul died, when anyone dies, they deserve death. They actually do becase the wages sin is death. But jesus did not deserve any of it. L

[cheekie3]

octoberose -

I agree with what you have stated; apart from this segment:

He was separated from his Father for the first time in his existence- for us. 

I do not believe Jesus Christ was separated from His Father while He lived as a human being, or died as a human being.

Jesus' spirit returned to His Father when he died as a human being.

Jesus' spirit was given a new Glorified spiritual body when He was resurrected by His Father.

I do not know if in the state of being dead, if Jesus Christ was not aware of anything as Abraham is not aware to this day - as I do not yet fully understand 100% all things about The One True God (The Father and His Son) - as it is an enigma - and Jesus Christ was the first in His Creation - and Jesus was unified with His Father from the beginning of all things; as when you see and hear Jesus Christ, you see and hear The Father.

Jesus Himself said that He had the power to give up His Life and Raise it up again - and the Scripture confirms that The Father resurrected Jesus Christ.

I do not believe Jesus was lying when He said that He had the power to raise Himself up again from the dead.

We know that everything in creation exists in Him (Jesus Christ) - and The Father always does His work through Jesus Christ.

Jesus was still in charge of all things when He became a human being; as he was still unified with His Father.

As Ray said on many occasions - there is more to Our God than we realise.

In Holy Spirit.

George.

 

[Kat]

I do not know if in the state of being dead, if Jesus Christ was not aware of anything as Abraham is not aware to this day - as I do not yet fully understand 100% all things about The One True God (The Father and His Son) - as it is an enigma - and Jesus Christ was the first in His Creation - and Jesus was unified with His Father from the beginning of all things; as when you see and hear Jesus Christ, you see and hear The Father.

Jesus Himself said that He had the power to give up His Life and Raise it up again - and the Scripture confirms that The Father resurrected Jesus Christ.

I do not believe Jesus was lying when He said that He had the power to raise Himself up again from the dead.

We know that everything in creation exists in Him (Jesus Christ) - and The Father always does His work through Jesus Christ.

Jesus was still in charge of all things when He became a human being; as he was still unified with His Father.

As Ray said on many occasions - there is more to Our God than we realise.

Hi George, I believe that it is important to understand that when Christ died for our sins, He was indeed dead. I do not believe this is an enigma, Ray spoke about it many times.

It's always good to review these aspects of truth and this is from the LOF article 16E. 'Hades and the Second Death.'

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm ----------------

"Death and hell [hades/unseen] followed with him" (Rev. 6:08)

Notice that again we have "death and hell" put together. The reason is rational: the one leads to the other (as in our three different definition for the word 'death'):

"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell  [Gk: hades]  followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."  (Rev. 6:08).

Clearly, sword, hunger, death, and beasts, are four methods of ending life which then brings all these categories to hell/hades, the realm of the DEAD. And this is the same hell/hades which our Lord was in when He was dead in the tomb, where it was prophesied that His soul (His sentient, animated life of feelings and emotions) would not be left there in this unseen, imperceptible, condition and realm of the dead.

And it is these dead "people," not dead "cadavers" which God is going to raise.
v
And when Jesus died for the sins of the world, He was also "dead." If Jesus was not dead as theologians and many Christians believe, then we don't have a Saviour. God the Father did not send Jesus' "body" to be the "Saviour of the world." Let's read it again:

"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures" (I Cor. 15:3).

It was "CHRIST" Who died for our sins and it was "CHRIST" Who was DEAD. When people "die," they are "dead." Christ "died," and Christ was "dead." And therefore, it is Christ Who is the Saviour of the World, not a "cadaver."
 
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent  [Gk: 'send out on a mission'--hence a commission] the Son  [Who? 'the Son.' The Son's body? NO, 'THE SON] to be the Saviour of the world" (I John 4:14).

Are we to believe that the "Saviour of the world" was a "cadaver"--the dead body of Jesus? Is that what the Father commissioned? NO, the Father commissioned "THE SON  [Jesus Christ]  to be the Saviour of the world." Who or What "died for our sins?" Someone's "body?" Let's read it again: "CHRIST died for our sins according to the Scriptures" (I Cor. 15:3). I'm going too fast again, aren't I? So why do orthodox Christian theologians teach that Jesus NEVER DIED, and since only His "body" died, then His "body" must be "the Saviour of the world."
v
Jesus died, and was DEAD. When they put Jesus' body in the tomb, they put JESUS in the tomb. When Jesus died for the sins of the world; Jesus was dead, not just His body. And when Jesus rose from the dead, it was not just His body. It is JESUS Who is the "Saviour of the world," and not just a corpse, a body, a cadaver? Christians have taught the world that man can't die. That he has an immortal soul that cannot die. That when people die they are not dead. That at death people "go somewhere." It is all unscriptural pagan nonsense.

Jesus' soul, His sentient being, His intellect, feelings, emotions, and heart, which define the human soul, went into a state of "imperceptibility." His soul was in the realm or state of hades which means "the unseen, the imperceptible," the state of death, the realm of the dead, the sheol of the Hebrew.
v
Now then, do the dead know that they are dead, or do they know anything at all?

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not ANYTHING" (Ecc. 9:5).
---------------------------------------------------------------

I do not believe Jesus was lying when He said that He had the power to raise Himself up again from the dead.

We know that everything in creation exists in Him (Jesus Christ) - and The Father always does His work through Jesus Christ.

Jesus was still in charge of all things when He became a human being; as he was still unified with His Father.

Yes George, everything concerning this creation is, was and will be done through Christ, but we also know that everything that Christ is comes from the Father. Christ depend on the Father, the Father does not depend on Christ. So when Jesus was actually crucified and was dead (a critical part of the work of this creation), and was without life of any kind for that short period of time, it is not hard to figure that the Father continued to sustain this/His creation.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

I really wish we could discuss this topic further about the Enigma of God but alas we are not permitted here. All as God wills! So many interesting scriptures to consider and discuss.

[cheekie3]

Kat -

Off course Jesus Christ really died.

I am saying that even in death, I do not believe Jesus Christ was separated from His and Our Father.

There is a significant difference.

God is - and God created all things through Jesus Christ, including human life and death.

Jesus has the keys of Life and Death.

I do not believe Ray taught completely on the enigma that is The One True God - but I understand that he was about to - but it was not to be.

I do not fully understand the enigma of God - but I do not believe that Jesus was separated from His Father when He died as a human being.

If I am wrong, I am wrong - but I believe nothing can separate Jesus Christ from the Love of His Father - not even His death.

In Holy Spirit.

George.

[rick]

Kat -


I do not fully understand the enigma of God - but I do not believe that Jesus was separated from His Father when He died as a human being.

If I am wrong, I am wrong - but I believe nothing can separate Jesus Christ from the Love of His Father - not even His death.



George.

Hi Cheekie,

 
He is the God of the living not the dead because all are alive to God because He has the power to resurrect but Eve was deceived when Satan told her saying you shall surely not die, I know what Satan said to Eve and I see many graveyards every time I go out, Satan is the father of lies.

God said  to Adam if you eat of the tree I commanded you not to eat of you will surely die but Satan said to Eve you will not surely die but who are you going to believe ? Christ died the day He was crucified  His thoughts perished that day, the living know they shall die but the dead know nothing.

Even though Christ was dead the Father still loved Christ, His death did not nor could it stop the love of the Father from Christ His son.   

This is how Christendom deceives people into believing there is a hell by telling them when you die you’re not really dead, if you were good you go to heaven but if you were bad then you go to hell. If that is true what need of the resurrection from the dead is there if we don’t die as stated by God.

Christendom is still telling the first recorded lie that Satan started way back in the garden of Eden. I don’t believe Satan and I certainly don’t believe Christendom, I believe God and when God said you will die He means you will die.

Who ran creation when Christ die, simple, God the Father did. The Father is good at everything even running the whole creation without error. Remember Christ said be perfect even as your heavenly Father is perfect so one can say the Father was perfect at running the whole creation while Christ laid dead in a tomb with no thoughts at all because the dead know nothing.

God bless. 

[Gina]

Jeff -

Someone whose three month old son tragically died said that no one loved her son more than her.

I believe Our Father and Our Saviour loved her son more than she did; as His Love is greater than ours.

I also believe that all suffering each of us all have is shared by Him.

Each of us have our own share of pain and suffering - but He has all of our combined aggregated pain and suffering.

He shares His Great Love with us - and He shares our great pain and suffering with us.

He is in total control of all things - but not remote of the pain and suffering we all experience - as He is part of all of us and we are all part of Him.

It is s like the pain a mother or father has when their child is suffering - except He has suffered the child's pain with the child.

He forces us all to suffer - and He suffers with each and every human being.

The Father also suffered with Jesus the pain Jesus suffered on the Cross and all that led to the Cross.

I believe that the suffering of Jesus leading to the cross, and on the cross was the greatest imposed on a human being.

I too hate all the evil in the world - and Our Heavenly Father states that Jesus loves Righteousness and hates wickedness.

I hope this helps.

Kind Regards.

In Holy Spirit.

George.

George,

Thank you, but WHY?

God taught us to pray for understanding, knowledge and wisdom.

I pray for this and don't know. Is my question heretical? Is it wrong to question? Is it wrong to seek answers?  The horror we inflict on each other is beyond my ability to just accept.  Accepting would mean complacency.  Are we called to that?

How much suffering is enough?

I don't know the mind of God, but I am, we are, His Creation.  He gave us minds that question, and desire to understand.  Our hearts are fashioned by Him.  Is it evil to desire a Spiritual understanding of evil? Especially when it's truly horrific?

if I had more faith I would pray for the destruction of this exceedingly sinful world.  I continuously ask Him to remove me from it, because it's more than I can bear.

Hi, Jeff


When Saul was on the Damascus Road on his way to harass and persecute and kill more Christians, what happened?  He was struck down and heard a voice that said, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting them?"  No, that's not what was said.  The voice said:

"Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me [the Lord, Jesus]?"

How could Paul have been persecuting the Lord Jesus when Jesus by this time had ascended to His Father?  Easy:

Matthew 25

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.

32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited Me in,

36 I needed clothes and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you came to visit Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?

38 When did we see You a stranger and invite You in, or needing clothes and clothe You?

39 When did we see You sick or in prison and go to visit You?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of Mine, you did for Me.’



The goats:



44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help You?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’


This means the lives and brutal deaths and abuses of others who are even babes in Christ (and innocent children), is no less significant than Christ's.  According to Jesus, whatever you do to one of the least of these brothers of His, you're doing it to Christ.  That's saying a lot.

I don't know who the sheep and goats will be, but Jesus said, The righteous will say "When did we see You in all these conditions and feed You?"  Completely UNpretentious (like little children would respond).

Whereas the unrighteous (goats) will say, "When did we see You in all these predicaments and not do these things for You?"

God knows it is not wise to make yourself poor or "get stupid" about what loving others is.  I mean, you don't want to be opening up your home to people who say they are Christians only to find that they are raping your daughter while you're at work, okay?  I don't think this is to be taken that literally.  And I don't believe that Christ would ever tell us to do something that He doesn't first equip us to do, because where else are we supposed to get all this love to love others?  The love (fruit of the spirit) has to come from God.  We can't form that fruit apart from Him. 

Any way, try to be strong and ask the Lord to strengthen you because Satan just loves to see us get all worked up about these things.  When we are that upset (heated) by what Satan is doing we don't think too clearly, and when aren't thinking clearly, we forget the words of God, like Christ came to UNdo the works of the devil.  All these things are a test for your faith, and I'm praying for you that your faith doesn't fail.  This stuff will shake you up.

But you can be glad that your reaction is one of horror and that it makes you poor in spirit, why?  Easy:


3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted

You and your kind will inherit the earth, You and your kind shall SEE God!

And death is swallowed up in victory.  And the last enemy to be abolished is death.  (So don't freak out and think that another's death or torture is not as significant as Christ's death.  Jesus NEVER said that.  It's just that their deaths cannot atone for sin.  Okay?)

You said (and I've said this too myself):

I continuously ask Him to remove me from it, because it's more than I can bear.

I totally understand.  Jesus said:

I'm not asking you to take them out of the world, but to keep them safe from the evil one  John 17:15

To be kept safe from the evil (one) doesn't mean that we will never see or experience evil.  We will.  It means that evil won't overcome us so that we are rendered powerless and ineffective and end up becoming the very thing we hate (evil workers), thank God, because the traps are everywhere.  Just be aware and on guard but keep your eyes on Jesus so you don't sink like Peter did when he wanted to walk with Jesus on the tumultuous water.

29 Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.

30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!”

31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?”

32 And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down.

33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”