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Author Topic: When does human life begin?  (Read 1073 times)

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repottinger

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When does human life begin?
« on: October 17, 2015, 03:37:44 PM »

Hello all,
As we had discussed in the recent thread about the breath of life, this term appears to be a metaphor for spirit. Here is another writing from Ray that explains very well what the spirit actually is:

http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm


TV ANALOGY: Body, spirit & Soul


Here is an analogy that is applicable and easy to understand: God's spirit gives life to the body. Only in life does a man have consciousness or sensation. When God takes back His spirit, the body and soul are dead.

Picture a TV console as representing the human BODY with all its intricate circuitry and components.
Now picture ELECTRICITY as the invisible, powerful force representing God's life-giving SPIRIT.

Picture the blank PICTURE TUBE as representing the SOUL.

Without the electricity (God's spirit), the TV and picture tube (body and soul) are dead. All the time I hear preachers talking about our souls and our spirits as if they were one and the same. Soul and spirit are not one and the same.

Next plug in the electricity (God's spirit). The TV comes to life, and we see the picture tube (soul) animated. We see color, sound, dancing, singing, talking, intelligent conversations, all live via satellite. The dead TV becomes a living, visible, animated, intelligent entity-"Soul." But notice very carefully, the Soul (the animated picture in the TV tube) is not one of the original components. It is not a component in and by itself, but is rather the result of two other vital components, Body and Spirit (the TV console and electricity).

At bedtime I sometimes tell my daughter to give the TV a rest. When one turns off the "on/off" switch the TV goes to "sleep." The power light is still on, but the TV is blank and silent.

But now, pull the plug and take away the electricity (spirit) and what happens to the TV console (body)? It dies. It's just a box of circuits. Not even the power light is on anymore. If left unplugged it will, in time, decay and return to the dust of the ground.

And what happens to the colorful animated picture on the screen (soul) when we take away the electricity (spirit)? Want the real answer? Ask a child. Let several children watch TV together, then pull the plug and ask them where the picture went? A child will shrug his shoulders or say "I don't know" or say "It disappeared." Guess what? He is Scripturally correct on all three counts.

Without spirit there is no life and no consciousness. Without power a TV has no life and no animated picture. It's dead.

If you were to ask an ancient Hebrew person what happens to the soul (the thinking, feeling, animated, sentient personality of a man) at death, he would shrug his shoulders or say "who knows" or just say "it disappears." That's what "Sheol" meant to the Hebrews. It was a question mark. And the Greeks had their word for the same idea (Hades-the UNSEEN, the IMPERCEPTIBLE), and hades and sheol are synonymous in Scripture (Ps 16:10 & Acts 2:27).

There is one more profound Scriptural truth that is also perfectly analogous to the operation of a TV, and that is this: Picture God's Throne as the Broadcast Headquarters. The TV picture Tube, by itself, is not the source or originator of the picture it portrays on the screen. It is a channel for the signal transmitted from the TV Station and Tower. It can only manifest and portray on its screen that which is sent from the source [God]. And often the source [God] uses intermediaries like satellites [Angels] to relay the signals.

In Scripture, death is called a "return" [Heb. shub]. Before we were born we had no body, no soul, and no perception of any kind. At birth God gave us a body, implanted to us His spirit, which gives the body perception (through the brain and the five senses). At death, we [shub] RETURN. The reversal of what happened at birth. The spirit returns to God (Ecc. 12:7), the body returns to the dust (all the elements of man's body are found in the ground or earth) (Job 10:9, Ecc. 3:18-21), and the soul returns to no perception again (the imperceptible or unseen-hades) (Acts 2:27 and Psalm 49:15). This is what the Scriptures very plainly teach: where all that man "is" came from, that's where all that man "is" returns to.

So, as we see, the spirit is the “electricity” (or vital force of life) in the “television consoles” of our bodies that animates us as living beings. For me, the next question to be asked involves when human life actually begins.
Here is the link to a discussion which was referred to by Kat in the recent thread about the number of people who have lived on the earth:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,16333.0.html

I was struck by the argument here that, in Job 10:19, Job stated that, if he had died in the womb, it would have been as if he had never existed at all. However, in the previous verse, Job states that he wishes that he had died in the womb (or at birth); this raises the question of how he could die if he had not already been alive.

Job 10:18-19, AKJV

18 Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb?
Oh that I had given up the ghost (often translated as “died”), and no eye had seen me!
19 I should have been as though I had not been;
I should have been carried from the womb to the grave.

So, if Job HAD died in his mother’s womb or while being born, as far as he was concerned, it would have been AS IF he had never been alive, because we have no conscious or explicit prenatal memories. However, he apparently WAS alive (as opposed to not even having any form of existence yet), otherwise he would not have been able to die. Research has shown that we DO have unconscious or implicit prenatal memories; this (along with the fact that the breath of life appears to be a metaphor symbolizing vital life force rather than a literal term denoting the physical act of breathing oxygen, and Job’s statement of his desire to have DIED in the womb [not to have never been born in the first place]) would seem to indicate that the breath of life was already present in Job prior to his birth. This, in turn, seems to suggest that life could indeed begin at conception rather than when the first breath of oxygen is drawn.
As always, I would welcome any questions or comments that anyone might have on this.
Your brother in Christ,
Randy
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: When does human life begin?
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2015, 05:39:34 PM »

"And what happens to the colorful animated picture on the screen (soul) when we take away the electricity (spirit)? Want the real answer? Ask a child. Let several children watch TV together, then pull the plug and ask them where the picture went? A child will shrug his shoulders or say "I don't know" or say "It disappeared." Guess what? He is Scripturally correct on all three counts."

Ask me when a human life begins--the point before which human life (soul) did not exist--and I'll shrug my shoulders, or say "I don't know" or say (looking back) it "disappeared".
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Rick

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Re: When does human life begin?
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2015, 06:28:23 PM »

Hi Randy,

My thoughts on this subject which is my opinion is that Adam became a living soul when God gave Adam the breathe of life, then Adam became a living soul.

God would of have done the same for Eve also because God form Eve from Adams rib and Eve had no life in her like Adam had no life in him because they both had a body but not the spirit in them which gives life.

Adam and Eve were the only two humans that were not born but were made fully adults by God.
The rest afterwards are born and have the spirit in them to have life, do you see that ?

God form Adam from the dust of the ground and so on the ground laid Adams lifeless body then God gave to Adam the breath of life by breathing in his nostrils. Then Adam became a living soul.

God never had to give the breath of life in this manor again. A baby is alive in his or her mothers womb if the pregnancy is normal so how has the baby life ? There is a difference between Adams creation and  baby being born.

Let me ask this question, are all babies in their mothers womb dead until they are born and breathe or are they alive before they breathe?

Answer that question and you’ll have the truth when life begins in the mothers womb.

God bless.  :)
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To every thing there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven.

Kat

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Re: When does human life begin?
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2015, 06:31:55 PM »


Okay Randy, I know this is a very hard thing to comprehend, as with other truths. But the other thread had a plethora of Scriptures about life and breath, I see you do not agree with them. Okay there are more Scripture.

Quote
Research has shown that we DO have unconscious or implicit prenatal memories;

Really and you have a reputable source for this?

Quote
this (along with the fact that the breath of life appears to be a metaphor symbolizing vital life force rather than a literal term denoting the physical act of breathing oxygen

Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Does that seem like a metaphor? God literally "breathed into his nostrils" so he could have physical life.

Quote
Job’s statement of his desire to have DIED in the womb [not to have never been born in the first place]) would seem to indicate that the breath of life was already present in Job prior to his birth. This, in turn, seems to suggest that life could indeed begin at conception rather than when the first breath of oxygen is drawn.

Well that's your opinion, with no Scripture reference at all. Yes an unborn baby is living, it is started from a living egg of the mother and a living sperm of the father and continues to live, it can move and it grows, it has to in order develop until it is really to be born. It does not have literal breath in it, as it's lungs are filled with fluid, there goes your metaphor. Look at this Scripture passage.

Eze 37:1  The hand of the LORD came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones.
v. 2  Then He caused me to pass by them all around, and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and indeed they were very dry.
v. 3  And He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" So I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know."

I think we understand that these are those that have died and are dead and in the grave - dry bones (and verse 12).

Eze 37:4  Again He said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD!
v. 5  Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live.
v. 6  I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the LORD." ' "
v. 7  So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and suddenly a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to bone.
v. 8  Indeed, as I looked, the sinews and the flesh came upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them.

So we can see that God is explaining what will happen when they are resurrected.

Eze 37:9  Also He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live." ' "
v.  10  So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath (and spirit verse 14) came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.

Can you see the parallel here... that a baby is formed within the mother, it is developing a body, like those in the resurrection will have a new body created for them as well. But the baby, nor those in this passage have animated (thinking, functioning) life before there body is ready and has the breath of life come into them.

Eze 37:11  Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, 'Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!'
v. 12  Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
v. 13  Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves.
v. 14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.' "

When God prepares their bodies so they can be resurrected, that body would not be considered a dead thing (living flesh is not dead), but their spirit must be put back in them, so their soul will return and they will be a living animated beings once again. And an unborn baby is indeed living as well, and yes it can die before it is born, that is a miscarriage : spontaneous expulsion of a fetus before it is capable of independent life. (Merriam-Webster).

It will take studying these Scripture with an open mind and a willing spirit to grasp this truth.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 10:39:54 PM by Kat »
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Rick

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Re: When does human life begin?
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2015, 06:54:12 PM »


Okay Randy, I know this is a very hard thing to comprehend, as with other truths. But the other thread had a plethora of Scriptures about life and breath, I see you do not agree with them. Okay there are more Scripture.

Quote
Research has shown that we DO have unconscious or implicit prenatal memories;

Really and you have a reputable source for this?

Quote
this (along with the fact that the breath of life appears to be a metaphor symbolizing vital life force rather than a literal term denoting the physical act of breathing oxygen

Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Does that seem like a metaphor? God literally "breathed into his nostrils" so he could have physical life.

Quote
Job’s statement of his desire to have DIED in the womb [not to have never been born in the first place]) would seem to indicate that the breath of life was already present in Job prior to his birth. This, in turn, seems to suggest that life could indeed begin at conception rather than when the first breath of oxygen is drawn.

Well that's your opinion, with no Scripture reference at all. Yes an unborn baby is living, it is started from a living egg of the mother and a living sperm of the father and continues to live, it can move and it grows, it has to in order develop until it is really to be born.



 I wonder, could Adam move or grow or do anything before God breath into his nostrils ?
   
This breathe of life only applies to Adam and Eve. Both Adam and Eve had a lifeless body that God created until He breath into their nostrils and then them became a living soul.

Does God breath into all babies nostrils like He did for Adam and Eve?
   
Don’t be deceived, if you stuck a pin into Adam before God breath into his nostrils Adam would of said nothing but stick a pin into a baby before its first breath and he or she will not be happy with you.

God bless.  ;)
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To every thing there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven.

Dennis Vogel

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Re: When does human life begin?
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2015, 07:19:41 PM »

We've been through this before and it got nowhere. Time to end this.
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