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[Jeff]

I've been searching for Scripture that might explain something that has always held my curiosity and opinions are welcome.

God is in control of everything, but does that preclude randomness, or chance?

My personal understanding doesn't necessarily exclude the possibility that chance does not exist, but I obviously can't simply ignore the fact that God will always know the outcome of everything.

Does that mean that there is no true randomness?

This may seem to be a frivolous question, but I think God sometimes wants us to ask questions that we don't know the answer to, and this is one that's been on my mind for decades. I've never been able to sufficiently come to a conclusion.

If pressed I'd have to say that chance, luck and randomness aren't possible - the nature of God and his omnipotence, would seem to validate this, but I sometimes have tunnel-vision and don't always see the bigger picture.

[Kat]

Hi Jeff, well as for the notion of chance, free will comes to mind, here is the definition of chance  1 : something that happens without apparent cause 2 : the unpredictable element in existence : luck, fortune (Merriam-Webster). So can't see how there can be something like chance, it seems to fly in the face of God's sovereignty.

I did find is a couple of place that Ray touched on randomness.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=7714.0 ----------

One of the main reasons most Christians can not understand the Scriptures is because of this doctrine of free moral agency or free will. They don’t understand it, but they absolutely insist that they have it and that God gave it to them. They don’t understand the basics of physics. 

Now I know today they say that there is such a thing as true randomness in physics. I say oh really, what law is that based on? They will say, ‘well there is no law.’ Oh, if there is randomness there has got to be a reason for it, and that reason is the law behind it. I’m not saying that I totally understand it, but there is a lot we don’t understand and until we understand it and then it’s, 'oh okay there it is.' 


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=5154.0 -----------

“That strikes many people as incoherent," [said Dr. Silberstein, who noted,] "that every physical system that has been investigated has turned out to be either deterministic or random.”

Ray's comment: I don’t want to get into that, I did some research once for about 8 hours on randomness, it will drive you crazy. Let’s just suffice that they find that in the universe, you either have determinism or randomness. But here is what he said, “Both are bad news for free will.” Either one of the two things that we find, or in other words when you get down to the level of quarks and things, they think there is such a thing as randomness - things that happen with no apparent systematic law governing it.

However I have this theory, that they are governed by the law of randomness. Okay
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[cheekie3]

Jeff -

There is no randomness or chance that is not according to what He has determined will happen.

He controls all causes (including the circumstances) that we all are in.

He is Life, Love and Light.

Whether we as mankind do Good or Evil, He states that He is responsible for ALL.

We are accountable for the way we live and have our being - but He has a way out for us when we do not reach His standard because of the weakness that is mankind - and that is total forgiveness for everyone's sins in Christ Jesus.

I may want to win the Lottery to reduce my family debt to the elite of mankind - but whether I work hard at winning the Lottery or not, He has determined who will win each Lottery Ticket.

He has determined who His Elected Called Out Ones are; and He will enlighten us in a little, more or much as He Desires.

He has also predetermined what we do with the enlightenment He has passed onto us - which I believe will be made a part of each and every one of His Elect in this Age (and the rest of mankind in the age or ages to come) - as it really is part of His Fruit (characteristics) for Right Living.

I hope this helps.

In Holy Spirit.

George.

[lilitalienboi16]

Randomness and chance are merely relative ways of explaining from a human perspective an affect or event which has no percieved reason or cause. Of course, in the absolute, and even by science and God's declaration, we kn ow, there are no causeless events. An event that is not caused is an event that did not happen. God is the ultimate cause of all things, it was He who brought creation into existance and so it all goes back to Him.

There really is no chance or randomness when you understand God works ALL THINGS after the LAW of His own will.

God bless,
Alex

[Jeff]

I was thinking more along the line of throwing dice or dealing a shuffled deck of cards.  Ironically, with regard to computing, there are pseudo-random number algorithms, and it's well known that there is no genuine randomness - it's impossible with the technology we have, and my guess would be that that will always be the case.  The idea of randomness has to do with physics, and since God created everything, and is in control of everything...

After reading what Ray wrote, I felt a little foolish for asking this question.

[Sparrowvision]

Ecclesiastes 9:11 has something to say on the subject but I can't say that would apply to the elect.

[Joel]

Hi Jeff,
You mentioned throwing dice, casting lots is a similar practice.
If you study CASTING LOTS, there are many times in the Old Testament and some places in the New Testament where this was done.
The Roman soldiers cast lots for the robe Jesus had worn, the Apostles cast lots to see who would replace Judas.
There are enough scriptures that can give you a better understanding about the subject, if that is what you are asking about.

Joel

[Jeff]

I think I'm going to go with "nothing is random".

If God is in control of everything then He's in control of "Every Thing".  I had wondered if He necessarily was directly influencing everything, and I think He probably is, because He's everywhere, but not just that, there's more. Something / anything exists, or happens, only because He wills it.  His presence is required.

Psalm 139:7-12 "Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea..."

He created laws that govern how the universe operates - from the expansion of His creation infinite, to the combination of 2 hydrogen molecules, and one oxygen molecule, giving us water. His influence is responsible for every subatomic particle, black hole, star, and galaxy.  Nature operates in perfect harmony because He created it that way.  I think that means nothing escapes His influence, or is even able to function, without His presence.

The universe is part of God - rather than God a part of it.  Every action and reaction happens within Him, not outside of, or apart from Him.

I don't at all understand what it means that God is everywhere, but I can imagine the possibility that if God were to stop being everywhere, those places where He chose to leave, would either begin to decay, simply stop, or even completely disappear.  God's power is what keeps the universe , and us, intact.  Without God's power nothing would exist.

When our spirit leaves our body don't we cease to exist? Our spirit returns to Him and we are "no more", no thoughts, feelings, intelligence.  I think I have that right?

Psalm 51
11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

David can only teach if God is present.  Sinners can only be converted by God's presence.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

Acts 3:19 "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord."

Psalm 9:3 "When my enemies turn back, they shall fall and perish at Your presence."

Gods presence seems to be a requirement for anything to happen.

If this teaching I apologize.  I have trouble differentiating between asking a question, posing an opinion, and trying to convince some of doctrine.

[indianabob]

Just to share one person's opinion for what it is worth.

I do not believe that life is a play of infinite acts in which God has the script written out in advance so that no thing and no one can deviate from the script.

I do believe that God is sovereign and can and does exercise control when necessary to see that all things work together for those who love God.

There is a difference...

Indiana Bob

[Jeff]

Just to share one person's opinion for what it is worth.

I do not believe that life is a play of infinite acts in which God has the script written out in advance so that no thing and no one can deviate from the script.

I do believe that God is sovereign and can and does exercise control when necessary to see that all things work together for those who love God.

There is a difference...

Indiana Bob

Where does your belief come from?

[lilitalienboi16]

Just to share one person's opinion for what it is worth.

I do not believe that life is a play of infinite acts in which God has the script written out in advance so that no thing and no one can deviate from the script.

I do believe that God is sovereign and can and does exercise control when necessary to see that all things work together for those who love God.

There is a difference...

Indiana Bob

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Isaiah 14:24 The LORD Almighty has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will happen.

Isaiah 25:1 O Lord, thou art my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful things; thy counsels of old are faithfulness and truth.

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Isaiah 48:3 I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Ecclesiastes 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

Etc etc etc...

God is very in control. He declared the end from the very beginnng, seems His plan is pretty certain and there is no deviating from the 'script.'

God bless,
Alex

[Kat]

I think there is nuances of God being sovereign that require more consideration. When we say God 'controls' every single thing that happens, then that makes me wonder if that would include our sins? well of course not. I've been thinking about this and I just think that knowing "the end from the beginning," is not exactly the same as predestining everything that happens.

I mean yes God certainly is sovereign and has designed everything to be as it is, from our being too weak to resist sin and a world filled with temptations, to Satan's influence, and all this 'causes' the wretched condition of the world, so God takes full responsibility. BUT we know God did not cause the rapes and murders and other abominable acts that people commit... so how to understand this? It's easy to get confused where there are subtle difference or distinction to be made... but see if these excerpts of Ray's articles may help show what I'm trying to say.


http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html -------------------

“…Who works [‘operates’] ALL THINGS after the counsel of His own will” (Eph. 1:11).

“For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are ALL THINGS…” (Rom. 11:36).

“And ALL THINGS are of God…” (II Cor. 5:;18).

“…calls those things which be NOT, as though they WERE”  (Rom. 4:17).

“Declaring the END from the BEGINNING…”  (Isa. 46:10).

“For in Him we LIVE, and MOVE, and have our BEING [Gk: ‘we ARE’—we exist]…” (Acts 17:28).
All energy, all matter, all creation, and all humans are in God. We can only “live and move… IN HIM.”  And this is why:
“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself. It is not in man that walks to direct his steps”(Jer. 10:23).

No man has a will that can choose contrary to what God already knows will be: “…and calls those things which be not [thoughts and deeds which have not yet been supposedly ‘freely’ thought of] as though they were [as though they already were thought of—how is that ‘freedom’ of the will?]” (Rom. 4:17).

I will repeat this until I am blue in the face, and perchance somebody out there will say, “Ah, yes, now I get it.” Once more: Since God says very plainly that He knows all things and that He knows all things before they happen, how is it then possible that anyone can think a thought which God didn’t know he would have to think? And if God already knows every thought that you must think: how are you free to not think those very foreknown thoughts and those foreknown thoughts only?

If any person in the history of the world can think one thought that God did not foreknow that he would think, then God cannot;
“call those things which be not as though they were.”

“Man’s goings [Heb: ‘steps’] are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way?” (Prov. 20:24).

“The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.” (Prov. 16:1).

No one can make one statement out of his mouth, unless it was first pre-ordained, foreknown, and approved of, by God!

“The Son of man [Jesus] can do nothing of Himself… without Me [Jesus] ye [all of you—all of mankind] can do nothing” (John 5:19 & 15:5].


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3815.0.html  ---

There is a whole lot more involved here than meets the eye with the word "ordained," which is used to represent nearly a dozen separate words in the Bible. When I wrote Part 2 of my "Lake of Fire' series seven years ago, I assure you that I did not have in mind that "God ORDAINED specific men to rape and cut the heads of off of specific children." That was the furtherest thing from my mind when I was specifically countering the Christian teaching that God DOES NOT KNOW IN ADVANCE what people will think or do. However, "fore-ordained," was not a proper choice of words to be used to describe God's "foreknowledge," which is something totally different from "fore-ordained."

It doesn't effect the principle of the teaching, but I will change out the word "fore-ordained"
 
What God "ordains" in the Bible carries the connotation of almost putting His "blessing" on the thing that is ordained. But as we cannot find anywhere in the Scriptures where God specifically ordains a specific SIN of humanity, such raping a little girl, I naturally took offense when the initial question in this little debate asked, why does God ORDAIN dirty old men to rape little children? (or words to that effect). There is a difference between God "fore-knowing" something and "fore-ORDAINING" something, although many refuse to see it.
 
Hence we have such doctrines as "God cannot look upon sin," which is the result of a miss-translation in the book of Habakkuk. Likewise it is untrue that the sacrificing of children to the god Molech "never entered God's MIND."  The proper translation is "HEART." Is there a difference between mind and heart? Yes. Is there a difference between God not tempting any man, but yet sends temptations? Yes. Is there a difference between God "CANNOT lie"  and sending a "LYING spirit?" Yes there is, but I don't have time to do a whole paper on this subject right now, because I am far behind in more important things. People have tried by the hundreds and thousands to trip me up over the years to insinuate that if what I teach regarding the foreknowledge and Sovereignty of God is true, then they present a dozen ways in which that would mean God is the AUTHOR OF SIN, or that God Himself IS EVIL. If God KNOWS in advance that people will commit certain sins, then isn't he "condoning" such sin? If they are a necessary part of His Plan and Purpose do they not work and work good. Therefore are not all these things "good?" Therefore isn't raping little children and cutting their heads off, a GOOD THING?  Can you see where this kind of thinking leads?
 
I have no objection to a question like: "Why does God allow evil in the world?" I can answer that question. But, someone asks: "Why does God ORDAIN men to rape children?" that offends my spirit..
v

We must be careful how we use words and phrases and also be careful not
to draw fallacious conclusions from Scriptural Truths. The Bible nowhere says
that God "pre-ordained" such sins. It says He has a fore-knowledge OF such
sins. Many people over the years have tried to force me into saying that God sins
and that God is evil, but I won't say it, because I don't believe it. God nowhere
says that He "ordains" sin, and so I don't say it either.
 
God did not "pre-ordain" me to eat Girl Scott cookies today, but I did. Man has
the ability to think, plan, create, imagine, and carry out these devised lusts of his
heart, and yes, God KNEW a long time ago just what we would do,  but nowhere
does it say that God "pre-ordained" our sins. We live and operate under law. We
automatically do certain things under certain stimuli. It does not need to be "pre-
ordained."
 
Maybe what you are really asking is why did God create humanity so that they would
sin under all of these different stimuli?  But that's a topic too big for an email. Besides,
I have covered these things many times in the articles on our site. If you look up ordain
or ordained in a concordance, you will find that God has ordained dozens of things in
the Scripture, but nowhere does it say He ordained particular sins.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2354.0.html ---

Dear Whirlwind:

You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?"  It is BOTH.  Listen:  God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE.  That's it. That's all there is to it.  That IS the principle. That IS the Truth.  That IS what the Bible teaches.  It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices."  You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation.  It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."

I hardly know what else to tell you.  God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams.  They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.  So then we don't make choices, right?  NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES.  It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see.  Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED.  And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that?  He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.

So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS?  Well, does He?  Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls?  That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will.  They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right?  Wrong, wrong, wrong! 

Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them.  He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things.  And who created the Devil?  That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things.  Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money.  God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT.  They volunteer with little outside influence.  God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak.  Eve couldn't help but sin.  God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.
-------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Jeff]

Aren't we just speculating at this point?

I think it's reasonable and human to do this, but it seems as though the true glory of God, is still beyond our full grasp.

We have learned "so" much through what God gave to Ray, that it seems like the Heavens have opened up, but the true glory of Christ is still a mystery to our mortal selves.

Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high..."

How can we possibly understand the meaning of the glory of God without actually experiencing it full on?

I just can't imagine what it means to sit at the right hand of God.

I hope and pray that we will.

[indianabob]

Jeff's question: "where does my belief come from?"
Dear new friend Jeff,
To answer that would take a small book.

I've been studying this and related issues for 40 years and vacillating from one opinion to another during the learning process. So I suppose that my understanding comes from God's spirit guiding me a little at a time as personal circumstances in my life permitted.

Since we are "made in or being made in" the image of God, then quite a bit of our innate approach to situations are "similar" to the way God thinks (in a positive sense).
-
God is a parent and when God's spirit is leading a human, the leading is to become like God in our approach.
Oversimplified: I let my kids try things and get hurt or make mistakes and hurt others. Sometimes there is no other way to teach. I think that God does the same with us.
-
I'm the parent: When my kids are playing outside near the heavily traveled street, they can run into traffic and get killed. Once that happens their life is over until the resurrection. I cannot correct that, so I need to be overly careful and try to protect them from their own ignorance, choices and youthful exuberance. God is not in the same situation. God can correct all human errors, when God is ready of course.

Kat offered some great commentary in her remarks. There are many nuances to the use of language and we need to either be lawyers trained in the use of language or else be very patient and careful to seek details and examples of what we are trying to communicate.

For example when the Bible says "God doesn't change" what exactly and in what circumstances does that apply to how God treats humans as they live their lives?
God did change His approach to humans after the Messiah had ascended to God's right hand. However, God's plan didn't change, it was just a revealing of that part of the plan that had not previously been revealed.
-
1. When God decided to call me into His Kingdom I assume God wanted me to have a wife. So God may have had my present wife in mind and may have been training her  from early childhood. But what about the great majority of souls that are not being called into the first and better resurrection? Is it necessary to believe that they too are under God's watchful eye every minute of every day and have their lives pre-planned? Or is that just one optional way of seeing it while we continue learning??

When we teach that God knows the end from the beginning I think it is better to regard that as God knowing the human character and knowing what any person would do under a given set of circumstances.

I don't think (subject to correction) that God knew Indiana Bob from eons past and had assigned me that name to live with and how many conceptions my wife would have and how many spontaneous abortions she would suffer etc etc.

However, as Kat has very ably illustrated, we are all a work in progress and will be learning until we draw the last breath. THEN when resurrected we begin learning all over again with a perfect teacher leading us full time. May that day come soon.   

Just to share one person's opinion for what it is worth.

I do not believe that life is a play of infinite acts in which God has the script written out in advance so that no thing and no one can deviate from the script.

I do believe that God is sovereign and can and does exercise control when necessary to see that all things work together for those who love God.

There is a difference...

Indiana Bob

Where does your belief come from?

[Kat]

1. When God decided to call me into His Kingdom I assume God wanted me to have a wife. So God may have had my present wife in mind and may have been training her  from early childhood. But what about the great majority of souls that are not being called into the first and better resurrection? Is it necessary to believe that they too are under God's watchful eye every minute of every day and have their lives pre-planned? Or is that just one optional way of seeing it while we continue learning??

When we teach that God knows the end from the beginning I think it is better to regard that as God knowing the human character and knowing what any person would do under a given set of circumstances.

I don't think (subject to correction) that God knew Indiana Bob from eons past and had assigned me that name to live with and how many conceptions my wife would have and how many spontaneous abortions she would suffer etc etc.

The thing is Bob, I absolutely DO believe that "the great majority of souls not being called now... are under God's watchful eye every minute of every day and have their lives pre-planned." We should not underestimate what our all powerful God is capable of.... doesn't God know the exact number of hair on everybody's head? "The very hairs of your head are all numbered" (Matt 10:30, Luke 12:7). In His making all the laws of this creation, making humans to be exactly as He designed us to be, from the chosen few to the most wicked sinners and also designing every cause and effect of every single thing that happens... I think He not only has foreknowledge of everything that happens, but actually He is intricately working and weaving together all these things, He does control ALL things, He is sovereign and responsible.

Though I believe He is very hands on with the chosen, not so much with the world... but He is not just monitoring what is happening in this world either. He is the Great Almighty God and has put everything in place and "in Him all things consist" (Col 1:17), He is very much actively involved with His whole creation.

John 5:17  But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."

Now as I was saying in the last post, I do not believe God is personally or directly causes people to do sinful things, their own weakness and lusts (that He created in us) and Satan (that He also created) does these things. If you think about it when Satan came before God and they discussed Job and God said to Satan...

Job 1:12  And Jehovah said to Satan, Behold, all that he has is in your power. Only do not lay your hand upon him. And Satan went forth from the presence of Jehovah.

Do you not think that God already knew exactly every single detail that would happen with Job? God did not really just turn Satan loose on Job, He knew exactly what would happen beforehand (Omniscience), He has perfect knowledge of how things work that He created to be that way, cause and effect... what Satan would do, how Job would react... as He does in every single thing that happens. He designed this creation and has perfect foreknowledge of exactly how everything will play out, every single detail of everything... He designed everything to intentionally do exactly what it is actually doing.

Pro 16:9  A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

So God does not tempt man, nor 'causes' anybody to sin, but He certainly is absolutely Omnipotent over this creation.

Just wanted to add this to give more clarity to what I was trying to say.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

God knew us before we were even born, that would imply the 'ol indiana bob' part too. God isn't just a passive observer of this creation. He is the potter and HE MAKES vessels of honor AND dishonor. He subjected ALL to vanity.

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Not even Paul, whom committed unspeakable horrors, could escape the plans God had for him because from the womb he had been set apart to fullfill the purpose God created him for. I have to believe that includes the evils he committed before he was converted. No one is free to operate outside of God's law which is how God is working all things.

Gal 1:13-16
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Psa 139:16 Your eyes saw my embryo, And my days, all of them were written upon Your scroll; The days were formed When there was not one of them." (clv)

Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. ()

Psa 139:16  Your eyes looked upon my embryo, and everything was recorded in your book. The days scheduled for my formation were inscribed, even though not one of them had come yet. (ISV)

Isa 49:1  "Listen to me, you coastlands! Pay attention, you people from far away! The LORD called me from the womb; while I was still in my mother's body, he pronounced my name. (ISV)

Job 14:1-5

1 Man that is born of a woman is of few days and full of trouble.
2 He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.
3 And doth thou open thine eyes upon such an one, and bringest me into judgment with thee?
4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
5 Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;

Ephesians 1:3-6
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
 
2 Timothy 1:9-11
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

Romans 9:17-23
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

The Word of God is living, I just do not see in any of the Word a passive God who is not intricately working and moving things. I don't see a hands off God who simply knows but one who is actively teaching this creation by an experience of evil what it means to be like Him.

God bless,
Alex

[judy]

An example, "No one can make a statement out of his mouth, unless it was pre-ordained, forknown and approved by God" Once I was standing on a rather large hill with other people, they were talking and enjoying the graduation of my daughter from college when all of a sudden without any apparent thought I just said, "does anyone recall the statement, "now you see me, now you don't" Why did I say this?? No subject along this line was in conversation. I then proceeded to fall down the hill landing with a tree between my legs. How's that for God! To this day I have no idea why that came out of my mouth. It took them 10 minutes of laughing before they even tried to get me back up!!!! Many times I have spoken of coming events, now I listen to myself because it might be a word from God. truthfully, judy

[Jeff]

An example, "No one can make a statement out of his mouth, unless it was pre-ordained, forknown and approved by God" Once I was standing on a rather large hill with other people, they were talking and enjoying the graduation of my daughter from college when all of a sudden without any apparent thought I just said, "does anyone recall the statement, "now you see me, now you don't" Why did I say this?? No subject along this line was in conversation. I then proceeded to fall down the hill landing with a tree between my legs. How's that for God! To this day I have no idea why that came out of my mouth. It took them 10 minutes of laughing before they even tried to get me back up!!!! Many times I have spoken of coming events, now I listen to myself because it might be a word from God. truthfully, judy

Thank you Judy.  You made my day