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Author Topic: Submissive Wife  (Read 8588 times)

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octoberose

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Submissive Wife
« on: October 22, 2015, 08:49:27 PM »

How do you see the issue of a wife being submissive to her husband? Where is the line? Is there one? And how does a submissive wife function spiritually in a
marriage where the husband and wife do not see eye to eye on matters of the church?
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Jeff

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Re: Submissive Wife
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2015, 09:36:05 PM »

I think this is a misunderstood attribute.

GK sub-root of hypotasso G5021 tasso  to put in order; arrange; appoint ones own responsibility; appoint mutually, agree upon.

The very next verse commands husbands to love.  What is love?

1 Corinthians 13:4-8 NIV "4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away."

I think husbands have a far greater accountability to God and their wives, than a wife has to her husband.
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octoberose

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Re: Submissive Wife
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2015, 11:01:36 PM »

"I think husbands have a far greater accountability to God and their wives, than a wife has to her husband."

That is very true Jeff. However, there's still verses like this to wrestle with:

Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives be subject in everything to their husbands. (Ephesians 5:22-24 RSV)
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Submissive Wife
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2015, 12:12:37 AM »

"I think husbands have a far greater accountability to God and their wives, than a wife has to her husband."

That is very true Jeff. However, there's still verses like this to wrestle with:

Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives be subject in everything to their husbands. (Ephesians 5:22-24 RSV)

Hi Rose,

This excerpt from ray might help you. Believe what God has written. Its the biggest stumbling block to the vast majority of humanity, they just can't believe what is written.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5506.0.html-------------------------------------------------------------------

I got an email from a girl name Pat.  She said, ‘I submit personally that God is a woman hater and showed it from the beginning.  The original sin was Adams’s fault, that’s how sin entered the world.  But God already hating women, gave the woman the blame and the worse punishment and set her low.  Yes this great experiment had failed, but God already proved Himself to be gender prejudice and yes knowing the beginning from the end, He set the woman up and let her take the fall.  I hate God, I really do.  I hate most Christians.’

I get interesting emails.  This girl is bitter.  Now, what about it though?  Don’t some of you women feel a little bit, that you have been a little lower than men, even from God’s perspective?  I mean when we read scriptures like this, and here we have these apparent contradictions, when we read scriptures like Acts 10.

Act 10:34  And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Alright we’ll accept that, the word of God says it, we should believe it.  Notice this in Corinthians.

2 Cor 6:18  And will be to you a Father, And ye shall be to Me sons and DAUGHTERS, says the Lord Almighty.

Did He leave women out?  No, “sons and daughters.”  Even though sons is used more often, daughters is in there, sons and daughters.  God will be a Father to His sons and daughters.  God is no respecter of persons. 

Gal 3:28  There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be NO MALE AND FEMALE; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

There is no male or female, you’re all one, you’re sons and daughters.  God is no respecter of persons. 
But then on the other hand….did you know that there are over 1700 personal names in the Bible, names of people.  It took me about 3 hours to learn this one statistic, so I hope you will appreciate what I’m going to tell you.  Over 1700 personal names in the Bible, but there are only 104 that are women.  Wow, you’re out numbered 16 to 1, 1600 for the men, 104 for the women.

1 Tim 2:11  Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

Does that sting a little bit, women? 

1 Tim 2:13  For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
v. 14  And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
v. 15  Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

1 Cor 14:34  Let your women be silent in the churches;

Wow, does that sting a little bit women?  I thought God was no respecter of persons.  I thought there is no male and female.  I thought we were sons and daughters in the kingdom of God.  What is all this?

Eph 5:22  Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
v. 23  For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
v. 24  Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

Does that sting a little bit ladies?  Does that seem like a little bit of a put down?  Do you see the same equality there with men?  Here is another one.

Deu 24:1  When a man has taken a wife and married her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes, because he has found some uncleanness in her, then let him write her a bill of divorce and put it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
v. 2  And when she has departed from his house, she goes and becomes another man's;
v. 3  and the latter husband hates her and writes her a bill of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house; or if the latter husband dies, he who took her to be his wife
v. 4  her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife after she is defiled.

And the Pharisees came to Christ and said, “can a man put away his wife for every cause?” (Matt 19:3)

Well what is this?  Does that sound a little chauvinistic to you women?  A man could put away his wife for any reason that she displeased him.  Do we have a commandment like that for the women, that she could away her husband for any reason, is there such a commandment?  No.  Does that sound a little chauvinistic from the scriptures to you?  Does that sting a little bit when you read these things women and you say, ‘I’d like to believe that God is no respecter of persons, but it sure seems like maybe He’s a respecter of gender.’  And He calls the woman the weaker vessel, that might be thought of as a put down a little bit. The weaker vessel.  Well I guess they could just bite their tongue and live by it and say, ‘I don’t quite understand it, but it does seem like we have been put down.’ 

The true of the matter is, that’s not true.
Now didn’t you know that I was going to say something like that.  You didn’t think I was going to dig a hole that I couldn’t get out of, did you?  Let’s go back to Ephesians so I can clear something up really fast here.

Eph 5:22  Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
v. 23  For the husband is the head of the wife….

How? To lord it over her, to be the boss, to crack the whip, to insult her, to have her walk 3 paces behind him, to cover her face with a veil in public, like the Muslims?  Is that what it means?

Eph 5:23  For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
v. 24  Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

This is not as bad as it sounds, it is not nearly as bad as it might sound to you women.  You are subject to your husbands, in the same way that your husband and the church is subject to Jesus Christ.  Now let’s ask ourselves is that a bad thing?  That the church should be subject to Jesus Christ, is that a bad thing?  Well of course not.  First of all it puts Jesus Christ in the seat of responsibility, He has to love, provide and protect His church.  Is that not comforting? 

What is the analogy of the husband to the wife then?  The same thing.  The husband is to love, provide and protect his wife.  This is a beautiful thing!  This is not chauvinistic and there are lessons to be learned for both.  Men should learn the finer traits of femininity.  Women should learn the virtuous quality of masculinity. 

The perfect balance in all of this is Jesus Christ, who created them both.  If Jesus Christ created man and woman, male and female, don’t you think He drew upon something to come up with what they are?  The creation came out of the mind of God.  So there is no inequality there.  They are both to learn.  Just because the man is over the wife and the wife is subject to the husband, is not a degrading position anymore than the church being subject to Christ is a degrading position.  It is a very honorable position.  Can we not agree on that? 

But I know what some of you are thinking, ‘but you don’t know my husband, he ain’t no Christ.’  I do know that.  But Christ will deal with your husband if he uses or abuses you or whatever.  By the way, there is no law in the scripture that says a husband can use and abuse his wife and children and she has to put up with it.  The husband is not the god over the woman and she has rights. 

You know it says, except for fornication, she be put away, you that commit adultery (Matt 5:32).  So is that the only thing that can dissolve a marriage, adultery?  Well actually it doesn’t say adultery, it says fornication and if you’re married, you can’t commit fornication, I mean not technically.  If you’re married you can only, technically, commit adultery you see. 

But the word fornication comes from the Greek word ‘porneia,’ like  pornography - porneia. 
It can mean a whole host of sins - immorality.  If a husband will not provide for his family, Paul said he’s worse that an infidel.  I mean he’s worse than if he had no religion at all, worse.  That’s immorality, that grounds for leaving your husband.  If he abuses the children, that’s porneia, that’s grounds for leaving your husband.  If he beats you, that’s porneia, that’s immorality, that grounds for leaving. 
Now don’t try to stretch your mind as to how thin you can take that.  Like, ‘he said a cross word to me, I think Ray was saying that would probably be porneia.’  No, I’m talking about real abuse.  You don’t need to stay in an abusive relationship, where you are beaten, where the children are abused, where your husband runs around like an ally cat, those all come under porneia - immorality.  So God did not stick you in a situation that would be sheer hell and allowed no way to get out, He did not. 

This shouldn’t be a problem to us, if we see that the proper relationship between the husband being over the wife, is the same as Christ being over the church.  It shouldn’t be a problem with us.  This is a beautiful thing.  This is not chauvinism. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

indianabob

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Re: Submissive Wife
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2015, 12:17:26 AM »

Hi October rose.

It is like Paul said; "follow me AS I follow Christ"

Quick answer: needs more detail obviously.

The command is "wives be submissive".
Who gives the command? God's spirit through the apostle.
So, if there is to be some wrestling over the issue, then it is with God and not with the husband. He has other commands to deal with between himself and God.

If the wife for example is not of a similar belief then it is within her conscience that any struggle takes place. The loving husband need not even be aware of it. He needs only to love her just as she is and pray fervently for the development of a gracious attitude in her.
 
When God presents a command, it is not to be oppressive or demanding. It is rather to make the issue clear. IF you do thus and so, God will be pleased with you. It doesn't matter what someone else thinks, just concentrate on pleasing God and those around you will have the benefit of your improving personality.

= = =

1 Corinthians 11 King James Version (KJV)

11 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.

9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.

18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
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Kat

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Re: Submissive Wife
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2015, 05:58:20 PM »


Ephesians 5:22  Wives be subject to your own husband.

That Scripture is pretty clear... God has created this order between men and women. It's another aspect of this intricate experience to have good and evil, the consequences of the choices we make can be good or not so good, but we learn from it all. So how is that verse applicable in a marriage relationship? I mean does a woman have no say or opinion about things? I think it really is more about attitude, an attitude of submission.

Submission - the state of being obedient : the act of accepting the authority or control of someone else. (Merriam-Webster)

The husband is the head of the household, the wife should have the attitude to voluntarily cooperate with your husband, his "helper as his counterpart" (Gen 2:29, Rotherham). Submission does not mean being a door mat, and I think that idea does a disservice to women and to what submission is supposed to be. A "woman of virtue is a crown to her husband" (Proverbs 12:4)... so he has his throne, but she is the crown in a godly marriage. If there has not been this proper order in your marriage, repent and change. With pray and continued striving to do God's will, it is a process that takes time, but He can give you a submissive heart to have produce loving relationship in your marriage. And if your husband is an nonbeliever, the key is a attitude of humility, not overt piousness or self-righteousness. Being righteous is not about being right all the time.

I don't think it's about a wife never having input either, certainly a husband and wife should discuss things, but it's not about getting what 'you' want, it's more about sharing different perspectives to reach the best conclusion. If you develop a relationship of mutual respect, love and support for one another, then there is no need to challenge his authority or to criticize. But it's those little nuances of 'voluntarily cooperating' that keeps there from being animosities.

Just a few thoughts.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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octoberose

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Re: Submissive Wife
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2015, 01:04:48 AM »

And for all those reasons I still go once a week to a 'christian church' because that is what my husband wants. I have to give him a lot of credit- he has never told me not to speak about things I don't believe. I just try to not  be obnoxious either. But I know him, have known him for forty years, and if I said I wasn't going with him anymore, it would hurt him and hurt our relationship. He would see it as being non supportive, I think.
And I just give this up to God, because if I'm suppose to be 'coming out  of her', well, that's going to have to be in attitude and belief, and not where I sit once a week.   
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Jeff

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Re: Submissive Wife
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2015, 02:02:10 AM »

And for all those reasons I still go once a week to a 'christian church' because that is what my husband wants. I have to give him a lot of credit- he has never told me not to speak about things I don't believe. I just try to not  be obnoxious either. But I know him, have known him for forty years, and if I said I wasn't going with him anymore, it would hurt him and hurt our relationship. He would see it as being non supportive, I think.
And I just give this up to God, because if I'm suppose to be 'coming out  of her', well, that's going to have to be in attitude and belief, and not where I sit once a week.

This IS LOVE! :)
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indianabob

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Re: Submissive Wife
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2015, 12:17:03 PM »

Hi again Rose,

You are where I am but on the opposite side.

My wife cooperated with me in the same manner that you have described for yourself.
It was her loving example that led members to "assume" that she was a deaconess, when in fact she was not even baptized in the WWCG. All the time we were in WWCG, 30 yrs. of raising four children, she was aware of many of the inconsistencies of their doctrine and practices and even shared those concerns with me.
-
I was quite stubborn and afraid to make waves and insisted on certain petty things that men are likely to allow to control themselves out of false pride. I think God prepared her for the challenge long before we even met. I'm certainly blessed to have the benefit of her leadership.... and that God finally woke me up to see and understand.

I support your loving approach and great patience. God knows your heart and your husband will someday realize the value of your personal sacrifice and be amazed.

Indiana Bob





And for all those reasons I still go once a week to a 'christian church' because that is what my husband wants. I have to give him a lot of credit- he has never told me not to speak about things I don't believe. I just try to not  be obnoxious either. But I know him, have known him for forty years, and if I said I wasn't going with him anymore, it would hurt him and hurt our relationship. He would see it as being non supportive, I think.
And I just give this up to God, because if I'm suppose to be 'coming out  of her', well, that's going to have to be in attitude and belief, and not where I sit once a week.
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rick

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Re: Submissive Wife
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2015, 02:28:40 PM »


Ephesians 5:22  Wives be subject to your own husband.

That Scripture is pretty clear... God has created this order between men and women. It's another aspect of this intricate experience to have good and evil, the consequences of the choices we make can be good or not so good, but we learn from it all. So how is that verse applicable in a marriage relationship? I mean does a woman have no say or opinion about things? I think it really is more about attitude, an attitude of submission.

Submission - the state of being obedient : the act of accepting the authority or control of someone else. (Merriam-Webster)

The husband is the head of the household, the wife should have the attitude to voluntarily cooperate with your husband, his "helper as his counterpart" (Gen 2:29, Rotherham). Submission does not mean being a door mat, and I think that idea does a disservice to women and to what submission is supposed to be. A "woman of virtue is a crown to her husband" (Proverbs 12:4)... so he has his throne, but she is the crown in a godly marriage. If there has not been this proper order in your marriage, repent and change. With pray and continued striving to do God's will, it is a process that takes time, but He can give you a submissive heart to have produce loving relationship in your marriage. And if your husband is an nonbeliever, the key is a attitude of humility, not overt piousness or self-righteousness. Being righteous is not about being right all the time.

I don't think it's about a wife never having input either, certainly a husband and wife should discuss things, but it's not about getting what 'you' want, it's more about sharing different perspectives to reach the best conclusion. If you develop a relationship of mutual respect, love and support for one another, then there is no need to challenge his authority or to criticize. But it's those little nuances of 'voluntarily cooperating' that keeps there from being animosities.

Just a few thoughts.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

I would think there is a big difference being submissive to a spiritually minded man opposed to a carnal minded man.

No wonder the scriptures say be not unevenly yoked, if we only believed what scripture says perhaps life would not be so burdensome for most of us.

Kat, you gave a Godly response to this thread.  :)
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octoberose

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Re: Submissive Wife
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2015, 10:07:56 PM »

I agree, "voluntarily cooperating" is a good way to put it.  A couple of years ago our congregation  brought in a minister who taught  "open theism" . Look it up if you don't know what it is- it's awful even for a typical church. I finally told my husband they were so out in left field I could barely sit through a sermon  and I was going to have to speak up. When the door was opened for us to leave, he led us out. I was very grateful.
 Rick, when I was married thirty-six years ago we were not unequally yoked at all. And now, I have hope that God could pull him to universal reconciliation. Probably most men with a theology degree would have a heart attack if his wife believed what I believe. But he has been surprisingly, well, tolerant. He seems to understand better than most that the trinity is not doctrine that is scriptural, but the lack of free will is a hard thing for a  'self made' man to give up. He just can't see that one. Free will is such a burden- I pray that one day he's unburdened with that one.
 
 
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judy

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Re: Submissive Wife
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2015, 11:16:16 PM »

Good replies, good advice, good words of God.  Basically I am the leader in this family because my husband is and can be a nasty alchoholic. I surrendered finally. No more fights, no more hatred, no more slandering him when he is really down. Someone said , "it's not between you and him but between you and God"  I leave him to God, pray for him, accept it is still not happening and do my best to be kind. All this for my sanity and peace. It doesn't matter anymore whether I am loved by him or not, actually I prefer NOT. God came to me in Isaiah saying. "I will be your husband" I take God literally and go to him for what I need. He is faithful to me and I love Him. I love my husband in the agape sense. It is 50 yrs and he is blind and I won't shove him off on our children, they have troubles of their own. They are good grown children mostly because my husband used to be self denying and loved them. He is so far gone now, I know he tries to be loving but only for moments, rare moments. He always took good care of us and I make myself remember this fact. God has made me strong and I do a good job, don't even complain anymore, thanks be to God. I'm saying all this because all of you must believe anything is possible with God, me, a used to be foul mouthed, raving idiot who wouldn't submit to what I considered stupidity. I was the stupid one. I believe my husband is sanctified because by God's will I am a believer. judy
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indianabob

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Re: Submissive Wife
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2015, 02:05:11 AM »

Hi Judy,

So sorry to learn of your trials.
Pleased that you were able to share and provide encouragement for others.
Hope that you will continue to place your faith where it counts and know that God who sees all things will surely reward you in the Kingdom.

Love and hugs, brother Indiana Bob
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cheekie3

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Re: Submissive Wife
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2015, 10:00:26 AM »

octoberose -

I see this like this:

Jesus Christ is obedient and submissive to His Father in Righteousness.

The Elected Called out Men of this age must also in the same way be obedient to Our Heavenly Father, but through Jesus Christ - so the Elected Men must willingly obey and be submissive to Jesus Christ in Righteousness.

The Elected Called out Women of this age must also in the same way be obedient to Our Heavenly Father, but through Jesus Christ - so the Elected Women must willingly obey and be submissive to Jesus Christ in Righteousness. And one of the things Jesus asks the Elected Women to do is to not have rule over their husbands - in the same way Jesus Christ does not have rule over His Father.

Obviously Our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are perfect and cannot sin or do wrong at all - whereas His Elected Men and Elected Women are a work in progress, as He continues to refine each of His Elect in His purifying fire with brimstone; and even though they no longer desire to sin at all, the Elect do sin from time to time (as it is part of their getting to understand Good and Evil) - which is why the Elect must always check their intent in their Hearts at all times - and repent for their sins.

I hope this helps a little.

Peace in His Holy Spirit, Light, Life and Love.

George.
 
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indianabob

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Re: Submissive Wife
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2015, 02:23:52 PM »

Very well said George and helpful.

Indiana Bob
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Jeff

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Re: Submissive Wife
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2015, 03:25:05 PM »

At its core it's a model.  Everything physical is a model of something spiritual.  The church, marriage, family.  It all reflects what will be.
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jingle52

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Re: Submissive Wife
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2015, 01:23:37 PM »

An inspiring thread, thank you all for all the sound advice and testimonies. I very much identified with the wives whose husbands are non believers. Judy, as you have testified, you have learnt to to be kind, patient and humble towards your husband over the years and that is showing the fruit of His Spirit.
Jingle
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octoberose

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Re: Submissive Wife
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2015, 11:41:22 PM »

I was hesitant to write because I have some mixed feelings about the church attendance issue. I appreciate the thoughtful and full of thought answers.
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lareli

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Re: Submissive Wife
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2015, 12:37:23 PM »

Ephesians 5:22 tells wives to submit to their husbands... But doesn't Ephesians 5:21 tell everyone to submit to one another?
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octoberose

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Re: Submissive Wife
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2015, 10:40:08 PM »

Exactly. Submit out of reference for Christ - wives submit to your husbands ( to Your husband, not everyone else's Thank Goodness) and husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church. Without a doubt, a great weight of responsibility is on the husbands.
But, the wife is never the head of the husband  though the husband needs to be willing to lay down his wants for hers. At least that is how I see submitting to one another.
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