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[Jeff]

Does anyone know if Ray addressed this specifically?  I did find a reference in The Lake of Fire series, but not an explanation, but I may have missed it.

2 Peter 2:4 "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [tartarus--abyss], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment"

Where does God send the sinful angels?  I'd always thought that Tartarus (tartaroo) was the grave just like, Sheol, Hades, Gehenna.

Maybe I was out sick that day?

Adding this from the LOF series:

"Listen to what I am about to say very very carefully: If the word "hell" is the most accurate and correct English word available to translate, the Hebrew word sheol, and the Greek words gehenna, hades, and tartartus, then these four words must all have the same meaning. But in reality only two of these four words have the same meaning."

Tartarus isn't mentioned again in that particular paper.

In hell part D I found:

One time "hell" is translated from the Greek word tartarus, which means "abyss," and is supposedly the lowest part of the Greek hades. And one time hades is translated "grave." In this Part D we are going to discuss the Greek word Gehenna which is erroneously translated hell in the New Testament, but correctly as "the valley of Hinnom" in the Old Testament.

Is Tartarus just a fabled place, synonymous with pagan, Greek lore?  Wait, that doesn't make sense, we're talking about Scripture here.

I'm obviously confused.  Is God sending sinning angels to the grave?

[Dave in Tenn]

"Sheol" (Hebrew) and "Hades" (Greek) are the two words with the same meaning.  Technically, neither of those means "the grave" if by that you mean "the place of burial", deliberate or 'accidental'.

"Gehenna" is a place-name--the Valley of Hinnom.  Jesus (and James) used it in parables.

"Tarturus" also does not mean "the grave", nor does it share the same meaning as "Sheol" or "Hades".

I'll stop there, but maybe that will clear up at least a little of your thinking.   
 

[Kat]

Hi Jeff, here is one place Ray did speak of tartarus.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html -----------------

The Egyptians called their place of punishment in the underworld, amenti. When the Greeks borrowed most of the Egyptian myths surrounding this place called amenti, they called it by the name hades.

Thomas Thayer supports Professor Stuart, Greppo's Essay, and Spineto, that: "The Amenti of the Egyptians originated the classic fables of Hades and Tartarus." (Doctrine of Eternal Punishment, Chapt. 3, P. 7.)

Did Jesus believe that when people die, they are consciously alive and tormented in the pagan hell of the Greeks named after their pagan god, hades?

Why would Jesus use pagan religious doctrines and beliefs to teach spiritual truths of God?
v
Virtually all of the great gods of Egypt became the great gods of Greece and Rome. They invented a few characters of their own, but the main characters of Greek mythology come straight out of Egypt. And all of this is a matter of reams of documented history.

The lowest and worst part of hades is called "Tartarus" in Greek.

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Gk: ‘tartaroo’]…" (II Peter. 2:4.)

Tartaroo is the Greek tartarus. But tartarus is not from the Greek, it is EGYPTIAN. Tartarus comes from the Egyptian word "tartar," which had to do with the lamenting at Egyptian funerals when a loved one was forbidden burial across the lake.

The paradise of the Egyptians was called Elisout or Elisaeus, or the Fields of Reeds. When copied by the Greeks and Romans these areas of paradise were called the Elysian Fields. All of the major gods and goblins of the Egyptian netherworld were copied and reintroduced into Greek mythology. From there they were copied by the Romans, and then allowed to remain as part of the Roman Catholic Church, even though the theologians knew these practices and beliefs were pagan to the core.

God has sternly warned:

"Take heed to yourself that you be not snared by following them [the pagan nations], after that they be destroyed from before you: and that you enquire NOT after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? EVEN SO WILL I DO LIKEWISE" (Deut. 12:30.)
-------------------------------------------------------------------

2 Peter 2:4 "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [tartarus--abyss], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment"

Where does God send the sinful angels?

I think what the question really is, is who are "the angels that sinned"? When this is made clear then you will understand where they are sent. Here are excerpts from '23 Minutes In Hell.'

http://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html --------------

No, demons are not angels, and angels are not demons, and there is not one Scripture to support such a theory.

The "angels of God" (Matt 25:31) and the "angels of the Devil" (Matt. 25:31) are the same Greek word, #32, 'angelos,' and the definition of this Greek word is: 'an angel, messenger, or pastor.' (Strong's Greek Dictionary). Nowhere is this word defined as "a demon."

Although the King James does not use the word "demon(s)," At numerous places in Scripture the word "daimon"--meaning 'demon' is found. Example, the word "devils" found in Matt. 8:31 is 'daimon' in the Greek manuscripts. Various English Versions translate 'daimon' into "demons" rather than "devils." But "demons/daimons" are never, ever translated "angels." Whoever or whatever the angels of the Devil are, they assuredly are not invisible or visible huge, ugly, deformed, alien monsters, which Bill calls "demons," "chained angels," and "angels of the Devil."

Please notice once more the definition of "angelos"--"an angel, messenger, or PASTOR" (Dr. Strong's Greek Dictionary #32, 'angelos').

How in the world could anyone confuse the hideous-looking zero IQ monsters in Bill's book, with angels, messengers, or pastors. One could possibly get a few back-woods uneducated aboriginals to worship such creatures, but certainly not hundreds and hundreds of millions of educated Christians.

If Rev. 12:9 is a true statement from God, then how is it that the two billion Christians in the world are excluded from "...the whole world" which are deceived by the Devil and his angels?
v
Satan deceives the world (except for the "few chosen ELECT" of God) through his own ministers. The Devil's angels are the Devil's ministers, and they are mortal men, not hideous, animalistic, monsters called demons. The "children of the lady" are the "very elect, few," and Satan the Devil has his "children" as well: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do" (John 8:44).

Now go back to verse 13 and notice who it was that followed Jesus and to whom it was that Jesus addressed: "The Pharisees therefore said unto him, You bear record of yourself; your record is not true."

And remember that the Pharisees were the religious leaders of God's church in Judea. But they were not godly men or godly ministers of Jesus, but rather they were the children of their father the Devil. These religious leaders were and still are, "the angels of the Devil"--the "ministers of Satan" (Matt. 25:41 & II Cor. 11:14-15).

Jesus calls these leaders of the Church, "angels of the Devil," "the children of their father the Devil." The Apostle Paul calls them "Satan's ministers."

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the MINISTERS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS; whose end shall be according to their works" (II Cor. 11:15).

So who are you going to believe? Bill Wiese with his hideous, alien, zero IQ monsters, or the Word of God? "The angels of the Devil" are humans, mortals, church leaders:
v
And certainly not all the clergy of Christendom are pawns of Satan, but many of them are.
v
Jesus cast out many daimonions/demons (Mark 1:34), but Jesus never cast out Satan's ministers or Satan's "angalos/angels/messengers." Satan's work is to deceive educated leaders in God's Church--mortal men, not spirit demons.

In Acts 13:10, Paul accuses Barjesus (a Jewish false prophet, Verse 6) of being "...you child of the Devil, you enemy of all righteousness..." Those accused of being children of the Devil are always mortal men, not spirit demons.

Jesus accused the religious Scribes and Pharisees of having "the Devil for a father," but never is Satan said to be the father of spirit demons.

"Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy Name? and in Thy Name have cast out devils? [Greek 'diamonion' - demons] and in thy name done many wonderful works?" (Matt. 7:22)

Notice that these Christian leaders do many things "in the Name" of Jesus Christ. Such as prophesying, casting out demons, and many other wonderful works. Where are "angelos = angels and messengers" cast out in the Name of Jesus Christ? Not anywhere, because these "many" doing these things in Jesus' name are mortal men themselves, not spirit demons.

It's time you are freed from this gross religious deception. There is only one group of people on the face of the earth who ("...prophesy, cast out demons, and do many wonderful works in the Name of Jesus"), and they are the leaders of the Christian Church.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lareli]

Hi Jeff, here is one place Ray did speak of tartarus.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html -----------------

The Egyptians called their place of punishment in the underworld, amenti. When the Greeks borrowed most of the Egyptian myths surrounding this place called amenti, they called it by the name hades.

Thomas Thayer supports Professor Stuart, Greppo's Essay, and Spineto, that: "The Amenti of the Egyptians originated the classic fables of Hades and Tartarus." (Doctrine of Eternal Punishment, Chapt. 3, P. 7.)

Did Jesus believe that when people die, they are consciously alive and tormented in the pagan hell of the Greeks named after their pagan god, hades?

Why would Jesus use pagan religious doctrines and beliefs to teach spiritual truths of God?
v
Virtually all of the great gods of Egypt became the great gods of Greece and Rome. They invented a few characters of their own, but the main characters of Greek mythology come straight out of Egypt. And all of this is a matter of reams of documented history.

The lowest and worst part of hades is called "Tartarus" in Greek.

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Gk: ‘tartaroo’]…" (II Peter. 2:4.)

Tartaroo is the Greek tartarus. But tartarus is not from the Greek, it is EGYPTIAN. Tartarus comes from the Egyptian word "tartar," which had to do with the lamenting at Egyptian funerals when a loved one was forbidden burial across the lake.

The paradise of the Egyptians was called Elisout or Elisaeus, or the Fields of Reeds. When copied by the Greeks and Romans these areas of paradise were called the Elysian Fields. All of the major gods and goblins of the Egyptian netherworld were copied and reintroduced into Greek mythology. From there they were copied by the Romans, and then allowed to remain as part of the Roman Catholic Church, even though the theologians knew these practices and beliefs were pagan to the core.

God has sternly warned:

"Take heed to yourself that you be not snared by following them [the pagan nations], after that they be destroyed from before you: and that you enquire NOT after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? EVEN SO WILL I DO LIKEWISE" (Deut. 12:30.)
-------------------------------------------------------------------

2 Peter 2:4 "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [tartarus--abyss], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment"

Where does God send the sinful angels?

I think what the question really is, is who are "the angels that sinned"? When this is made clear then you will understand where they are sent. Here are excerpts from '23 Minutes In Hell.'

http://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html --------------

No, demons are not angels, and angels are not demons, and there is not one Scripture to support such a theory.

The "angels of God" (Matt 25:31) and the "angels of the Devil" (Matt. 25:31) are the same Greek word, #32, 'angelos,' and the definition of this Greek word is: 'an angel, messenger, or pastor.' (Strong's Greek Dictionary). Nowhere is this word defined as "a demon."

Although the King James does not use the word "demon(s)," At numerous places in Scripture the word "daimon"--meaning 'demon' is found. Example, the word "devils" found in Matt. 8:31 is 'daimon' in the Greek manuscripts. Various English Versions translate 'daimon' into "demons" rather than "devils." But "demons/daimons" are never, ever translated "angels." Whoever or whatever the angels of the Devil are, they assuredly are not invisible or visible huge, ugly, deformed, alien monsters, which Bill calls "demons," "chained angels," and "angels of the Devil."

Please notice once more the definition of "angelos"--"an angel, messenger, or PASTOR" (Dr. Strong's Greek Dictionary #32, 'angelos').

How in the world could anyone confuse the hideous-looking zero IQ monsters in Bill's book, with angels, messengers, or pastors. One could possibly get a few back-woods uneducated aboriginals to worship such creatures, but certainly not hundreds and hundreds of millions of educated Christians.

If Rev. 12:9 is a true statement from God, then how is it that the two billion Christians in the world are excluded from "...the whole world" which are deceived by the Devil and his angels?
v
Satan deceives the world (except for the "few chosen ELECT" of God) through his own ministers. The Devil's angels are the Devil's ministers, and they are mortal men, not hideous, animalistic, monsters called demons. The "children of the lady" are the "very elect, few," and Satan the Devil has his "children" as well: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do" (John 8:44).

Now go back to verse 13 and notice who it was that followed Jesus and to whom it was that Jesus addressed: "The Pharisees therefore said unto him, You bear record of yourself; your record is not true."

And remember that the Pharisees were the religious leaders of God's church in Judea. But they were not godly men or godly ministers of Jesus, but rather they were the children of their father the Devil. These religious leaders were and still are, "the angels of the Devil"--the "ministers of Satan" (Matt. 25:41 & II Cor. 11:14-15).

Jesus calls these leaders of the Church, "angels of the Devil," "the children of their father the Devil." The Apostle Paul calls them "Satan's ministers."

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the MINISTERS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS; whose end shall be according to their works" (II Cor. 11:15).

So who are you going to believe? Bill Wiese with his hideous, alien, zero IQ monsters, or the Word of God? "The angels of the Devil" are humans, mortals, church leaders:
v
And certainly not all the clergy of Christendom are pawns of Satan, but many of them are.
v
Jesus cast out many daimonions/demons (Mark 1:34), but Jesus never cast out Satan's ministers or Satan's "angalos/angels/messengers." Satan's work is to deceive educated leaders in God's Church--mortal men, not spirit demons.

In Acts 13:10, Paul accuses Barjesus (a Jewish false prophet, Verse 6) of being "...you child of the Devil, you enemy of all righteousness..." Those accused of being children of the Devil are always mortal men, not spirit demons.

Jesus accused the religious Scribes and Pharisees of having "the Devil for a father," but never is Satan said to be the father of spirit demons.

"Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy Name? and in Thy Name have cast out devils? [Greek 'diamonion' - demons] and in thy name done many wonderful works?" (Matt. 7:22)

Notice that these Christian leaders do many things "in the Name" of Jesus Christ. Such as prophesying, casting out demons, and many other wonderful works. Where are "angelos = angels and messengers" cast out in the Name of Jesus Christ? Not anywhere, because these "many" doing these things in Jesus' name are mortal men themselves, not spirit demons.

It's time you are freed from this gross religious deception. There is only one group of people on the face of the earth who ("...prophesy, cast out demons, and do many wonderful works in the Name of Jesus"), and they are the leaders of the Christian Church.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

So demons are spirits, while children of the devil/messengers and ministers of the devil are people. Satan uses his ministers/angels to cast out demons.

Then there were no angels of God who rebelled and were thrown out of heaven and became demons. God didn't create Angels (of which Christendom teaches that satan was one of Gods Angels) and then satan caused a rebellion and a third of the Angels joined him and were tossed out.

Rays 'The Lucifer Hoax' I believe is helpful to this issue.

[Jeff]

"Sheol" (Hebrew) and "Hades" (Greek) are the two words with the same meaning.  Technically, neither of those means "the grave" if by that you mean "the place of burial", deliberate or 'accidental'.

"Gehenna" is a place-name--the Valley of Hinnom.  Jesus (and James) used it in parables.

"Tarturus" also does not mean "the grave", nor does it share the same meaning as "Sheol" or "Hades".

I'll stop there, but maybe that will clear up at least a little of your thinking.   

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-A.html

We have seen "sheol" used in poetic figurative language as a place, condition, or realm of "sorrow and mourning," as for a dead or presumed dead child. Only figuratively does someone still living go down to "sheol." It is decidedly the realm of the dead, and therefore is figuratively used sometimes to represent something very ghastly or frightening (as we will later see was the case with Jonah).

And although no one desires to go to sheol [the grave]; that is no one desires to DIE, but nonetheless, it is a safe place to be while we await resurrection. Nothing can harm us there. There is no fear or darkness there, because there is NO PERCEPTION THERE. Sheol is truly like a deep, sound SLEEP, from which our Father will awaken us in the morning. Let us be comforted by that thought.

Figuratively it's not technically the grave, but literally it is.

[Jeff]

2 Peter 2:4 "For if God spared not the angels that sinned..."

So, aggelos in this verse is referring to men, and we can tell because these messengers sinned, whereas God's aggelos do not?

[Kat]

2 Peter 2:4 "For if God spared not the angels that sinned..."

So, aggelos in this verse is referring to men, and we can tell because these messengers sinned, whereas God's aggelos do not?

Hi Jeff,

2Peter 2:4  For if God did not spare the angels (G32 a pastor: - angel, messenger) who sinned, but cast them down to hell (G5020 tartaroo) and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

When considering this verse in 2 Peter, just go back a few verses and see what Peter begins this passage by speaking of.

2Peter 2:1  But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
v. 2  And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
v. 3  By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

I think it's that most translations use the word "angels" in verse 4 that throws us off, but Ray made it clear the word can and does refers to messengers and PASTORS.

So thinking about what Peter is saying there, those angels/pastors were cast down to hell/tartaroo, from LOF 16-C "The lowest and worst part of hades is called "Tartarus" in Greek."

The first email is concerning exactly what 'hades' is, and also other emails that should further explain this topic.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3892.0.html ----

>Does the word SHEOL in the Hebrew always mean "GRAVE"?
 
COMMENT:  Although "grave" is an acceptable translation of "sheol,"
it is far from exact. Sheol means the "state or realm of the dead," not the
place where the dead are buried.

> Does the word HADES in the GREEK always mean "GRAVE"?
 
COMMENT:  Likewise hades (which Strong defines as 'sheol') would be
more closely translated grave than hell, but it too, like sheol has to do with
the "unseen state" realm of the dead.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6926.0.html ----

Dear Charles:  You are failing to understand just WHO Satans angels [messengers] are. The false teachers and pastors of Mystery Babylon the Great, the Great Church, ARE THE MESSENGERS OF SATAN!  And it was for THEM that this eonian/lake of fire/second death was prepared.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8808.0.html ----

Dear Mike:  In Scripture, angels, messengers, and ministers are used interchangeably.

    Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels [#32] spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

    Greek: #32, aggelos, From aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication a PASTOR: - angel, messenger. (Strong's Concordance).

    Now then, notice what Paul says concerning Satan and his "ministers"-

    2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

    2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his MINISTERS also be transformed as the MINISTERS of righteousness; whose end [eonian/gehenna/hell/lake of fire JUDGMENT] shall be according to their works.

    It is the false ministers (the "ministers of righteousness") of Mystery Babylon--The CHURCH, who are to be judged in this "eonian" fire along with their many millions of followers.  See my last Installment:  "The Lake of Fire and the Second Death."


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2657.0 ---------

"Aidios" assuredly DOES NOT mean "eternal." It means imperceptible or invisable.  It has two elements "A"  = not, and "idios" = see or perceive. Hence "not see or not perceive."  What can BE seen in creation attests to what CANNOT BE SEEN in God's achievements.  The bonds of the angels are not visible and literal physical chains, but "imperceptible" chains. It is very similar to the word "h - ades," which is also un perceive, hence unseen or imperceptible.

    God be with you,
    Ray

[Jeff]

Kat,

I think what I wrote is in agreement with what you wrote.

In 2nd Peter what's translated as angels is actually referring to a human being (man - PASTOR) not an angel.

As far as sheol, hades, and tartarus go, I think what I wrote is in compliance.

[Kat]

I think you were in compliance with what I added... it's just good to present all the material on a subject for anybody that might be reading.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
 

[Dave in Tenn]

>Does the word SHEOL in the Hebrew always mean "GRAVE"?
 
COMMENT:  Although "grave" is an acceptable translation of "sheol,"
it is far from exact. Sheol means the "state or realm of the dead," not the
place where the dead are buried.

> Does the word HADES in the GREEK always mean "GRAVE"?
 
COMMENT:  Likewise hades (which Strong defines as 'sheol') would be
more closely translated grave than hell, but it too, like sheol has to do with
the "unseen state" realm of the dead.