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Author Topic: God's Love  (Read 1949 times)

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Jeff

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God's Love
« on: October 30, 2015, 09:51:59 PM »

I recently re-read Ray's paper on "Why does God Love You" and this quote is something that I've been trying to work through, and understand in a way that will help me to be more obedient.

"However, when sinning becomes a way of life, and the sins are of a certain magnitude and grossness, God hates the sinner as well as his sins."

I've always thanked God for loving me until I read this.  I had to consider that there may be times when God doesn't love me. However, just today I was reminded of this caveat "...when sin becomes a way of life..." so this may not be relevant to those who frequently visit the forum, but we all do sin to a degree, that we'd probably rather not.

I have this idea that the most important kind of human love is a verb-tense. I believe that God's love is far beyond this, but we have our limitations.

If we are "lov-ing" someone it becomes an action.  It's more than a feeling - we are actively doing something for someone else, that is rooted in love.  Praying for someone is loving them, letting a car merge in front of you is an act of kindness, which is love, telling your significant other that you are so grateful that they're a part of your life - making your children feel that they matter in this world and in God's master plan - these are all acts of love.  A "feeling" of love for another, benefits us, more than them, unless it's turned into an "act".

So where am I going with this?

It seems to me that God is ALWAYS lov-ing His children, simply because of His plan for our salvation - for the salvation of mankind.  He is always lov-ing us because He brings trials into our lives that bring us closer to Him, He's loving us when He chooses to divert us from something that would ultimately keep us from growing into someone who can be a part of His family.

Ephesians 3:11 "According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,..."


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cheekie3

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Re: God's Love
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2015, 10:43:57 AM »

Jeff -

I understand God's Hate like this:

God's Hate must be part of His overwhelming Love; as above all else, God is Love.

When God Hates, it is not in the same realm as when mankind hates (and usually desires revenge or justice).

When God Hates, He has His Plan of correction for those in rebellion against His Holy Laws, and this is part of His Love.

When we know we do wrong (i.e. sin), most of us hate ourselves for it - and wished we never did that particular sin.

I hope this helps a little.

In His Understanding and Wisdom.

George.

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The Acts of The Apostles 1:8 (NIBEV) "But you shall receive power when His Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

Extol

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Re: God's Love
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2015, 10:36:09 PM »

I listened to Ray's Love teaching today, and I agree with what you said, George, that God's hate is a part of his love...as contradictory as that may sound.

Ray said when God has aversion or hostility for something, it just means he's going to punish it and clean it up. He doesn't hate like we hate, because he doesn't have a carnal mind. He's still fully in control of his emotions--unlike us--when he is talking about his wrath and vengeance.

It was an eye opener for me when I learned God hates sinners, but as we know, it is not forever. Thank God for that. :)
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: God's Love
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2015, 11:16:34 PM »

Good words George and Jesse. I might add, I once read by Alexander Thomson, that the KJV fails to make reference to the english word "Abhor" and that this word for God's hatred is better translated as "Abhor." God abhorred Esau, He abhors the sinners who delight in their sinful ways. Irregardless of its exact meaning, whether you prefer hate or abhor, the end result is the same. As Jesse said, and I believe ray before him, "He's going to punish it and then clean it up!" Amen.

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Kat

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Re: God's Love
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2015, 11:12:58 AM »

I recently re-read Ray's paper on "Why does God Love You" and this quote is something that I've been trying to work through, and understand in a way that will help me to be more obedient.

"However, when sinning becomes a way of life, and the sins are of a certain magnitude and grossness, God hates the sinner as well as his sins."

Hi Jeff, God has made the human race filled with a great diversity of people/vessels, with some having a degree of righteous and to the other extreme are those steeped in wickedness.

2Tim 2:20  But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.

So with this in mind that there are people of greatly differing characters, we see that God tells us in many Scripture that He loves righteousness and the good in mankind.

Psa 11:7  For the LORD is righteous, He loves righteousness; His countenance beholds the upright.

Jer 9:24  If any want to boast, they should boast that they know and understand Me, because My love is constant, and I do what is just and right. These are the things that please Me. I, the LORD, have spoken." (GNB)

Psa 37:23  The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD, And He delights in his way.

God makes it clear what He thinks is good and righteous and gives us commandments and instructs us many times in what/how to please Him. Also He certainly expresses His love towards those who obey and please Him.

2Thess 2:16  Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace,

Rom 8:37  Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.

Eph 2:4  But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

Eph 5:2  And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.

1John 4:10  In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
v. 11  Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

1John 4:19  We love Him because He first loved us.

So just as He has shown in Scripture what He loves/delights/pleases Him... He also lets us know the counterpoint in no uncertain terms, what is an abomination to Him and many Scripture tells us what He abhors/hates.

Pro 11:19  As righteousness leads to life, So he who pursues evil pursues it to his own death.
v. 20  Those who are of a perverse heart are an abomination to the LORD, But the blameless in their ways are His delight. (NKJV)

Psa 5:5  The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.

Psa 11:5  The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.

Lev 20:23  And you shall not walk in the statutes of the nation which I am casting out before you; for they commit all these things, and therefore I abhor them.

Pro 6:16  These six things the LORD hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
v. 17  A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood,
v. 18  A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil,
v. 19  A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.

Pro 15:9  The way of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD, But He loves him who follows righteousness.

Zec 8:17  Let none of you think evil in your heart against your neighbor; And do not love a false oath. For all these are things that I hate,' Says the LORD."

Psa 9:15  The heathen have dug a pit and fallen in; they have been caught in their own trap.
v. 16  The LORD has revealed Himself by His righteous judgments, and the wicked are trapped by their own deeds. (GNB)

So here we see that God says that the people that commit, as Ray put it "sins that are of a certain magnitude and grossness, God hates the sinner as well as his sins." A saying I remember from my church days was something like, 'hate the sins, but not the sinner.' But how?

I mean isn't it clear that you cannot separate a person from his words and actions? I believe that a person IS what he thinks, says, does "for as he thinks in his heart, so is he" (Pro 23:7). A person's character traits is the sum of what that person is, character- the mental and moral qualities distinctive to an individual. What a person thinks/believes and acts on these ideas determines who they are... hate and love is very much a part of this in a person.

When God has spoken in many Scripture and expressed He clearly hates people because of the evil that they commit, this shows His absolute disapproval and condemnation of what THEY do, not just the action itself. The action of itself has no morality or capability to even exist without the doer of it, it's the 'person' that commits the deed and that's why THEY will be held accountable.

So that is the way I look at this, maybe it will give you a little more to think about.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 02:59:04 PM by Kat »
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lauriellen

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Re: God's Love
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2015, 08:39:38 AM »

I admit I had a hard time swallowing this when Ray first came out with this paper. Over time, I think I have come to understand a little better and it has taken the 'sting' out of it somewhat. It would be completely unacceptable to me if not for the knowledge that it is all part of the plan and that God will completely destroy in each of us all that he hates and we will all become the unique individual we were created to be. I think that even thru the 'hate', God is still working His love:

Rom_5:8  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Thank you Kat for all those great posts.
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AwesomeSavior

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Re: God's Love
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2015, 09:15:04 PM »

God sending His Son to redeem us and save us from sin is the ultimate act of hatred against sinners. It is the ultimate rejection of sinners. God hated Saul. God hated the "chief sinner" Saul so much that he put his Holy Spirit into Saul and named him Paul. God utterly consumed and destroyed Saul. He ground him into powder. The Lion of Judah crushed Saul under his claw. Then, Paul emerged and was born. God loved Paul.

God's expression of hate for the sinner is that He does not favor the sinner to remain in sin, and therefore destroys the sinner by creating a new person through the Spirit. God rejects sinners by healing them of sin.

The foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1 Cor. 1:25)
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Jeff

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Re: God's Love
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2015, 09:27:11 PM »

Hi Kat,

Thank you for taking the time to write about this.

I know the Scriptures don't contradict, but for some reason I can't pull this together in my head.

Is it simply that God has the capacity to hate as well love?  Is that the message Ray was giving us when he wrote about God hating sin?

If all of this simply means that God can hate as well as love, then I'm WAY overthinking this.  In that case I'm looking for something that isn't there and I need to quit it.

If there's more to it, then this would be confusing to me...

Luke 18:19 (YLT) "And Jesus said to him, `Why me dost thou call good? no one [is] good, except One - God"

Jeff
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Kat

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Re: God's Love
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2015, 11:34:54 PM »

Is it simply that God has the capacity to hate as well love?  Is that the message Ray was giving us when he wrote about God hating sin?

If all of this simply means that God can hate as well as love, then I'm WAY overthinking this.  In that case I'm looking for something that isn't there and I need to quit it.

Hi Jeff, I don't know if you are overthinking this, some of these things require much contemplation, but God does state what He hates in many Scripture.

Hate \"hAt\ n 1 : intense hostility and aversion (Merriam-Webster)

God certainly 'hates' sin and is showing mankind the havoc it wrecks through personal experience of it. Yes God has made it to be this way, He has made us all to be sinners, for the very purpose to absolutely prove to us how terrible sin is, from our experience with it.

Yes only God is good, He is the epitome of good, He has determined what is good. In His wisdom in designing humans He knows what will bring us real joy and happiness. For now He is giving us an experience in evil, so we have a comparison from which we can truly understand good, by seeing/experiencing it's opposite, evil. We see sin/evil=pain, suffering, torment, hopelessness, the opposite of what good does... would/could we truly understand what the goodness of God is/does if we did not really understand what sin is/does? Without anything to compare it with?

So God has shown in many Scriptures exactly what His goodness is about, love. He has also shown precisely what sin is about, enmity to God's goodness... when we sin we are God's enemy, separate from Him, which we all are at first to gain the knowledge of good AND evil.

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Eph 2:11  So then, remember that at one time you gentiles by birth were called "the uncircumcised" by those (Jews) who called themselves "the circumcised." They underwent physical circumcision done by human hands.
v. 12  At that time you were without the Messiah, excluded from citizenship in Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise. You had no hope and were in the world without God. (ISV)

There is no other way to look at it, the process that we all must go through is hard, for some horrific, sin is ugly and it is our ruin. God hates all this, of course He hates sin and He hates those that commit it... it's in total opposition to Him. But it's the way it must be to accomplish the end results.

But this is only the beginning for us, Christ has already come and suffered Himself (evil was done to Him) and He literally died as our sacrifice. We are the chosen few fortunate ones who have been brought to Christ first, before the rest, now we have life/peace IN Him.

Eph 2:13  But now, in union with the Messiah Jesus, you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of the Messiah.
v. 14  For it is He who is our peace. Through His mortality He made both groups (Gentiles and Jews) one by tearing down the wall of hostility that divided them. (Gal 3:28; Col 3:11)
v. 15  He rendered the Law inoperative, along with its commandments and regulations, thus creating in Himself one new humanity from the two, thereby making peace,
v. 16  and reconciling both groups to God in one body through the cross, on which He eliminated the hostility.
v. 17  He came and proclaimed peace for you who were far away (Gentiles) and for you who were near (Jews).
v. 18  For through Him, both of us have access to the Father by one Spirit. (ISV)

We are being brought to God, our enmity/sin removed, being overcome by the Holy Spirit in us... first we had to taste of sin like everybody does, but now we can have His peace, IN Him.

Col 1:19  For in Him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
v. 20  and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross.
v. 21  And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,
v. 22  He has now reconciled in His body of flesh by His death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before Him,

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 05:25:03 PM by Kat »
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Jeff

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Re: God's Love
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2015, 08:57:37 PM »

This topic has me wondering if God has ever loved me. I don't mean that in a "poor me" way but just as an observation when I look back. I'm 56 and I've known God since I was small, first the way child knows of God, then in the Church, and for the past 6 years here after I found this place.

I have nothing in me that would qualify as fruit of the spirit.  My life has been one disastrous, epic fail after another. There's never been joy or contentment and I've never known real love of any kind though it's probably been there and I wasn't able to recognize it.  My childhood was full of abuse and since my teenage years I've been medicated to keep depression at bay, and maybe illness has something to do with my experience, but it raises a question. 

Is it possible that God has hated me from the beginning?

I don't want this to be a sob story, it's not like that, I'm accountable for every mistake and sin, but I think if it's possible that God has hated me, then it might explain some things.  I try to be obedient but fail often every day.  Maybe the illness is part of it but I need to find out how God has seen me throughout my life, and especially now, here, today.

Definitely something to think about.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 03:05:24 PM by Jeff »
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cheekie3

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Re: God's Love
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2015, 07:39:59 AM »

Jeff -

I look at it like this:

Whatever I have ever desired, thought, spoke or done has been preordained by Our Heavenly Father.

It matters not whether we did Right or wrong (or Good or evil if you will).

Our Heavenly Father has given each one of us a conscience; whether or not we are aware of it, or not - and it is morally based.

For example, when we first lied to our Father and Mother - did we not internally evaluate the circumstances; and did we not know we were about to lie.

Then, as I understand it, Our Heavenly Father educates us a little at a time - and some of His children are Called Out Ones; and receive His Truths (again, bit by bit).

I believe inherent in each of us is a desire to do Good - but unfortunately, by ourselves, we can never do Good, as only by His Spirit Holy can any Man or Woman do Good.

If we look at this in another way - as Our Heavily Father is ultimately Responsible for ALL, and each one of us is Accountable for all our desires, thoughts, speech and action - which is PRIME - is it He who is ultimately Responsible or each Man or Woman who are Accountable.

To me it must be that He who is Responsible takes precedence.

Which means that although we are accountable for our sins (whether we desired to sin or not), He is ultimately Responsible - and guarantees a way out to total Redemption for each one of His children.

I always check the desire in my heart when challenged by anyone - in order to confirm whether or not I was doing something out of servitude to serve others or selfishness to please myself. If the Truth is that I was not acting selfishly, and we know that Our Heavenly Father judges our hearts (and its desires thereof) - to me that is the end of the matter; and if I did act selfishly, I repent of that particular sin and ask Our Heavenly Father in Jesus' Name to forgive me, as I forgive all others of their sins against me and mine.

I hope this helps a little.

Regards.

George.
 
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The Acts of The Apostles 1:8 (NIBEV) "But you shall receive power when His Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

Kat

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Re: God's Love
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2015, 11:59:18 AM »

This topic has me wondering if God has ever loved me. I don't mean that in a "poor me" way but just as an observation when I look back. I'm 56 and I've known God since I was small, first the way child knows of God, then in the Chirch, and for the past 6 years here after I found this place.

I have nothing in me that would qualify as fruit of the spirit.  My life has been one disastrous, epic fail after another. There's never been joy or contentment and I've never known real love of any kind though it's probably been there and I wasn't able to recognize it.  My childhood was full of abuse and since my teenage years I've been medicated to keep depression at bay, and maybe illness us something to do with my experience, but it raises a question. 

Is it possible that God has hated me from the beginning?

I don't want this to be a sob story, it's not like that, I'm accountable for every mistake and sin, but I think if it's possible that God has hated me, then it might explain some things.  I try to be obedient but fail often every day.  Maybe the illness is part of it but I need to find out how God has seen me throughout my life, and especially now, here, today.

Definitely something to think about.

Hi Jeff, none of us can "qualify" in any way, we are all hopelessly lose, sinful and wretched, if we think we're anything more than that, well...

Rev 3:17  Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 

God's hate is not our human kind of hate that takes things personal and wants to get even... no God is NOT like the humans that He created. He made us faulty, intentionally, too weak to resist sin/temptation, He's responsible for that, but it's a necessary part of bringing us on to perfection. So this creation seems to be running amok, with every terrible thing imaginable happening now, we're acutely aware of how bad it is, because we are right in the middle of all this.

Though God designed it to be this way, He does NOT have pleasure in all this. He wants us to understand while everything is like this, He hates all these terrible things that are happening in this world. He is NOT the god of Christendom that has designed a place called hell and will cast people there to be tortured and tormented for ever and ever and ever. This age is temporary!

God actually loves this creation so much that He did the greatest act of love possible, He came into human form and literally died for us, every single one of us is precious to Him.

1John 4:10  In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

John 3:16 For thus God loves (not pass tense) the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian." (CLV)

The conclusion of all this is that God will bring every single person that He has created to salvation and will give all them their due justice. 

1John 4:14  And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.

Eph 2:1  And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
v. 2  in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
v. 3  among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
v. 4  But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
v. 5  even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
v. 6  and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
v. 7  that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

1Tim 1:14  And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.
v. 15  This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

We all have to reach a place where we fully understand that we are not only nothing, but are exceedingly sinful and too weak to resist even the most base desires, even Paul did. So don't be so overwhelmed thinking God must have always hated you because you are a failure, WE ALL ARE! We all should realize we are the worse, just like Paul did. We have to be deceived and blind first before we can have our eyes opened to the glorious truth.  It's only at that point of realizing that we are hopelessly lose that God calls us to Christ and begins His work of redemption in us.

Heb 9:14  how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
v. 15  And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Eph 4:22  that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
v. 23  and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
v. 24  and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Here is an email.

http://bible-truths.com/email13.htm ---------------------------------

[Ray Replies]

Dear Randy:

 Just a couple of thoughts that might be of help to you as you proceed. You bring up one of the interesting beliefs of Christendom which again, diminishes the sovereignty of God and actually makes Him look rather stupid. And that is the different situations in Scripture where it appears that God thinks like a man and is LIMITED just as we men are limited.

 You gave an example, God REALLY DIDN'T EVEN KNOW what His Own creation was capable of. He built a machine, if you will (seeing that you are engineer-minded), but He did not even have the foresight of a good human engineer. God could not in His supposed INFINITE mind, all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful attributes, foresee the result of His Own creation. He made a machine that DIDN'T WORK PROPERLY, and after discovering His fatal mistakes, He scraps all the machines and starts over with one of the machines that doesn't seem to be quit as FLAWED as the others. Of course, in just a little time even the "perfect" machine exposes its same flaws as previous models, and God is constantly adjusting and readjusting His plan from plan A to plan B to plan C, and NOTHING seems to work!

 And so, just like any good human filled with frustrations of inadequacy, God sometimes gets extremely ANGRY AND FRUSTRATED. Not at HIMSELF, but AT THE MACHINES THAT HE HIMSELF MADE!!!
 He constantly ACCUSES THEM of being "flawed" when it was God HIMSELF that made them in the first place! Are you following me, Randy? Am I not painting a perfect picture of the philosophies and theologies of Christendom?  God does never accept responsibility for the absolute MESS we find on earth today. No, He only finds fault with THE MACHINES THAT HE HIMSELF MADE! God says that HE IS PERFECT, but that the machines that HE MADE, are flawed. They SHOULD ALSO BE PERFECT AND WORK PERFECTLY, BUT THEY JUST DON'T! Oh, woe is God, what WILL He ever do?  How can He ever FIX His fatally flawed inventions?

 God wants His inventions (His machines) to work perfectly and properly, but they just won't. In fact, THEY NEVER DO. NOT ONCE HAS ANY ONE OF HIS MACHINES WORKED PERFECTLY. He likens the very BEST PERFORMANCE OF HIS VERY BEST MACHINES to some disgusting analogy of a woman's menstrual cloth (that would be "filthy rags" to all you King James readers). Eventually and apparently (according to the greatest minds in theology), God comes to realize that the problem with ALL OF HIS MACHINES is that they are ALL OUT OF CONTROL. They never ever listen to the instructions from Command Central. Sometimes they even say that they will listen to God's instructions as to how they might operate perfectly, but then in practical application of those Command Central instructions, THEY ALWAYS FAIL and malfunction.

 This then is the history of the world and the human race--episode after episode of MAL-FUNCTIONING MACHINES AND INVENTIONS OF GOD. God does pretty well with physical mechanical things, but the very things that are closest to His Own BEING--spiritual things, He has but one failure after another (BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF FAILURE).

 Not only do all this machines and inventions of God malfunction, THEY TOTALLY DESTROY EACH OTHER!!! And for many who are not destroyed by other machines, their ultimate demise comes about by a total internal meltdown. It is called "DISEASE."  All of God's machines eventually succumb to internal disease which not only causes internal malfunctions, but eventually causes all of God's machines to SELF-DESTRUCT. No human has ever died of "natural causes." All humans die from either of two things: trauma (such as poison, accident, murder) or disease. The oldest person who has ever lived and died in his sleep, DIED OF A DISEASE! And sometimes in Scripture it appears that God Himself must DESTROY HIS OWN INVENTIONS AND MACHINES TO KEEP THEM FROM DESTROYING OTHERS THAT HE WANTS TO KEEP.

 God means well. God only knows, HE TRIES!!  He has a sophomoric zeal for law and order in His universe, but these damned machines of His apparently won't even follows the pre-ordained of irrefutable LAWS OF SCIENCE AND PHYSICS. They are TOTAL RENEGADES, and nothing short of totally destroying them will keep them in harmony with all the other laws that God has instituted.

 All things in the universe follow LAW! Well, except for one. God's machines. They don't follow ANY LAWS. They are true renegades (excuse me, I meant to say "FREE moral agencies). OH REALLY?

 And when we cut through all the theological DOUBLE-SPEAK of not only the greatest theologians in the world, but also the greatest scientists and the greatest philosophers and the greatest thinkers on earth, THIS IS THE CONCLUSION AS TO WHAT GOD IS AND HOW TOTALLY INEPTLY HE PERFORMS.

But people don't want to think that "GOD" is stupid, weak, and inept. So they COME UP WITH (oh yes, they 'came up with' this theory of "human FREE will" that is not MADE to do or think ANYTHING. These complex machines that God has made are apparently capable of coming up with their OWN INSTRUCTIONS. They are not 'plugged into God,' they are running freely on energizer batteries completely independent of their own Creator.

 If men are FREE to do good and FREE to think good, why is it that God says NONE EVER HAVE? Paul tells us that NONE SEEK OUT GOD, NONE DO GOOD, NO, NOT O-N-E! If men have the ability to make UNCAUSED [free] choices why is it that NONE EVER CHOOSE GOOD?  Either NO MAN has ever chosen on his own to seek out God and do good, or GOD IS A LIAR! It's that simple!

 A friend recently suggested that one of the best books he has ever written (and one that he strongly urged that I read), is entitled "THE GOD WHO RISKS." I told him that I would never waste my time reading such a book as the very title is UNSCRIPTURAL BLASPHEMY! God has never ever 'RISKED" ANYTHING! God has never ever been 'SURPRISED' by ANYTHING! ALL OF THE UNIVERSE INCLUDING GOD'S HUMAN MACHINES OPERATE ACCORDING TO PRE-ORDAINED LAW. MAN'S APPARENT HUMAN LAWLESSNESS IS ONLY POSSIBLE THROUGH THE OPERATION OF ANOTHER LAW! 

 Men 'sin' (make mistakes) because they operate under the LAW OF MISTAKES. God instituted a "LAW OF MISTAKES." All who are subjected to this law, MAKE MISTAKES. THEY HAVE TO. A LAW IS SOMETHING THAT ALWAYS WORKS ACCORDING TO DESIGN. Humans were designed to operated according to the LAW OF MISTAKES. But most of humanity has never heard of such a thing! A 'law of mistakes.

 Who has ever heard of such a thing? This is sheer nonsense straight from the "free" mind of one, L. Ray Smith, is it not? NO, IT IS NOT! I can't and won't take credit for it. I read about this "law of mistakes" in a book--its called THE BIBLE.

 If you are really interested in the Truth, Randy, I will show you the law of mistakes and how it works. It will answer a million questions concerning the supposed malfunctioning machinery of God's creation, and the apparent contradictions of Scripture. Oh, did I tell you that there is also a "law of perfect performance" that is even more powerful than the "law of mistakes?" Men know almost nothing of these two laws, and therefore, they invent clever little heresies such as "free moral agency."


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,985.msg8254.html#msg8254 ---

Ray, would you please explaine to me the law of mistakes and the law of perfection that you mention in one of your papers?
v
Dear Alan:
To simplify theological words and terms, I sometimes present them with vanacular words and common terms.  Hence to make "the law of sin and death" more understandalbe in every day life, I called it "the law of mistakes"--sin is defined as a mistake or to miss a mark.

And the "law of the Spirit of LIfe" I called "the law of perfection." (See Rom. 8:2). When God calls us out of Babylon, He frees us from the law of sin and death by teaching us the truth and by enabling us to obey these truths. We make LESS MISTAKES, and we progress toward PERFECTION-- "The High Calling in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 3:13).

God be with you,
Ray
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 03:20:42 PM by Kat »
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Jeff

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Re: God's Love
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2015, 03:17:47 PM »

Hi Kat and George,

Thank you for replying.  For the most part I understand things in the same way that you do.  My understanding has been shaped through God's leading and Ray's papers.  But there are still finer points that will continue to baffle me until I understand them for what they are.

Understanding "how" God hates is something I'll have to keep working on.  I understand what you've written, but I feel like there's more - or maybe not - I tend to overthink things. :)

Peace,
Jeff
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Kat

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Re: God's Love
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2015, 07:15:45 PM »


Hi Jeff, well there may be a finer point on this that you are looking for and there is so much to these things that makes them hard to get all the way worked out in our minds to where we are completely satisfied with it.

But let me add this, there have been subjects that I thought I understood or I had developed an understanding of. We get info/understanding from everywhere, as we go about life, from people we talk to, TV, internet and oh yes when we were in church. So we have picked up bits and pieces here and there of what we have determined/believe to be right and we store it away in a mind and it pops back up when we think about something related to it. So our minds are filled with this 'knowledge' or OUR understanding that we have gained from all over the place. Most of it we don't even question, we have already decided it was right and rely on it.

So I have come to realized that I had formed some 'mental blocks' to learning some of these truths, because I had faulty 'knowledge' stored up and was still influencing me, that was preventing me from understanding. I'm not saying this is what you are doing, I don't know, but it has happen with me.

Yes we come to understand things from many sources and I guess I had much stored up from my church days and with much study have been able to root a lot of that out, because it would interfere with my understanding these truths. It is a daunting process un-learning all these falsehoods that we had once believed and they can be stumbling blocks too. I think there must still be things deeply embedded in my mind that I do not even realize yet.

So it's a continual process to find and sort out these ideas that impede our learning, but that's why God gives us His Spirit to help us with this...

John 14:26  But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Hope this helps.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Jeff

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Re: God's Love
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2015, 08:27:25 PM »

Yes Kat, thank you.  You bring up a very good point.  I hadn't thought about what might be blocking me - some idea that I accepted - or the way I think about love - could very well be keeping me from grasping.  I'll have to pray about that.

You're always an inspiration, Kat, everyone here is, and I'm grateful. :)

Jeff
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Colin

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Re: God's Love
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2015, 10:40:01 PM »


Hi everybody
This thread has provided some excellent food for thought......by some "coincidence" (not really) I decided to read the transcript of Ray's June 2007 Bible Study entitled "Saved by Grace ...by divine influence upon our hearts "

I include an excerpt from it which I found enlightening and felt it could be beneficial while we are contemplating this topic.   Unfortunately I do not have the link details to it, but Kat, with her extensive archive could "dig it out" to provide ready access for all.    Half way through the transcript , the following is found.....

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5417.0.html (link added by Kat)

Well now, did Israel have divine influence from God upon their hearts?  No.  Listen - the most times you will find grace in the Old Testament talking about anything or anybody, it’s [re] Moses.  It’s always Moses saying, ‘oh Lord I hope I find grace in Your eyes.’  He just means favour. He says, don’t be mad at me, let me do right - let me find mercy - let me find favour - let me find safety - don’t get angry God, let me find grace in your eyes; it’s in there about 8 times.  Never once in the Old Testament is anybody ever talked about being spiritually saved or received salvation by grace.  It’s just not there.
 I mean even King David… if God had divine influence on his heart, the way it’s supposed to be, why would he go to his death bed squeaking out his last words to his son, Solomon.  Telling him how he wants him to kill all his enemies and make it bloody.  Does that sound like divine influence upon your heart, from God?  It doesn’t sound like that to me.  That’s what grace is, divine - divinity - God - Godly influence on your heart.  But now we’ve taken grace out of the realm of a noun, into a verb, it’s doing something you see.  Of course I said that a long time ago.   
   
Jesus didn’t need grace for any pardon of anything.  But did He need the influence of God, divine influence on His heart?  Absolutely.  That’s why He could live the way He did, accomplish what He did, never give in to wrong motives and temptations and all that.  He had this divine influence of God on His heart ALL THE TIME.     
So then we read Paul says, “But by the grace of God I am what I am: and His grace (divine influence upon the heart) which was bestowed upon me was not found vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I….” (1 Cor 15:10) 

“Yet not I”   what?  He said “I laboured”; you know what that means, work.  I’ve ‘worked’ harder than all of them, yet it wasn’t I that works, right.  Notice it wasn’t “I” that was doing the work, but the grace of God, which was with me.  The grace of God, what?  These things are all understood;

Notice it, I am what I am by His divine influence upon my heart, which He bestowed upon me and it was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all laboured: yet not I laboured, but the grace of God laboured.  That’s what it’s saying, can you see that?  So what is the grace of God doing in Paul’s heart?  It LABOURS, it works.     

It’s not some ‘thing’ like, ‘well I have the grace of God,..that saves me.’  They take that word and just tack it on the wall; ‘grace’ there it is, I got it, God said I got to have it and there it is ‘grace.’  It can’t just be in a book, it can’t be on the wall, it’s got to be IN YOUR HEART.  What does it do there?  IT LABOURS - IT WORKS. 

That's the end of the excerpt:

Sometimes I find material, a topic being discussed by Ray in one article and then the same topic in another, but expressed slightly differently and then the "light comes on", as it were.

This transcript precedes what Ray later wrote in the LOF series on paideuo - where he linked chasten, teach and grace ....it is the same message, but perhaps somebody else might find the different phrases used in this transcript might help to "see it a little more clearly" as it did for me.       Colin
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 12:53:48 PM by Kat »
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Jeff

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Re: God's Love
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2015, 12:30:43 AM »

Colin,

It's no siurprise to me that you shared that excerpt, at this moment, in this thread. But I pray that God will bless you for doing so.

I did a word study on grace today, and it was really beneficial. What God gave you to share makes it so much more significant.  Thank you.

The Hebrew word for grace (chen) means favor, and the Greek word for grace (charis) means "that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech" and also "of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues"

Luke 6:23 "Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets."

Rejoicing (to be glad) has a significant connection to grace.  Grace is probably the most significant connection to God that we have, apart from the Salvation of Christ, but grace even has a part in that.


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