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Author Topic: "So - Is there any difference?"  (Read 30249 times)

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lilitalienboi16

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2015, 06:42:33 PM »

Hello Arion,

Consider also this verse of scripture wherein Christ is our example and how when He suffered He did not retaliate;

1 Peter 2:21-24
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

It was very wise of Loc to bring to remembrance how Jesus often hid from those who seeked to do Him harm and the example Paul left of making use of the law to protect him when it was lawful to do so.

No one is advocating that you stand there and watch as evil is perpetrated against you or your family but what we are saying is that we are not to overcome evil by evil. No one with the spirit of God will murder, kill, be violent, under any circumstance. You can protect your family without an eye for an eye. God will make a way but you have to have faith in Him. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

Believe that He is and He will.

1 Peter 3:8-9
8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

Romans 12:9-21
9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Yes, all these things are a tall order (the calling is a high one) and with man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible. By His grace we shall do what is good and right in His sight when the time comes because it is God which works in us.

God bless,
Alex
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 07:18:54 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Jeff

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2015, 09:22:06 PM »

We are called to battle but...

2 Corinthians 10:4 “For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds.”
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Felix

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2015, 12:38:43 AM »

Hi
What about when Jesus chased the money changers out of the Temple with a whip?
That seems pretty violent to me.
Felix
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Rhys 🕊

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2015, 01:11:35 AM »

Maybe not so much about being violent but taking a stand for truth


http://www.bible-truths.com/fools.htm

AN ANGRY CHRIST IN A DEN OF THIEVES

Did JESUS ever get angry over crime and corruption within the church?

"And they came to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to CAST OUT them that sold and bought in the temple, and OVERTURNED the table of the money-changers, and the SEATS of them that sold doves: And would NOT ALLOW that any man should carry any wares through the temple"(Mark 11:15-16).

Now then, were any of these activities being performed in the Temple ILLEGAL? No, they were not. The officers of the Temple allowed it according to their laws, and the Roman Government allowed it according to their laws. So these merchants in the Temple were not criminals. Or were they?

Jesus said they were CRIMINALS! But woe unto me if I should suggest that this same buying and selling in the Churches today is criminal! It IS criminal, I assure you, it is CRIMINAL. And they do FAR WORSE in today’s churches! They not only sell trinkets and religious junk in the Church, they MAKE MERCHANDISE OF THE VERY WORD OF GOD ITSELF. THEY SELL THE WORD OF GOD FOR PROFITS! Here is what Christ said concerning their activities of buying and selling in the Temple:

"And He taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the House of Prayer? But you have made it a DEN OF THIEVES" (Mark 11:17)!

Does anyone believe that Jesus was SMILING while He turned over their tables and accused them of making His House a "DEN OF THIEVES?"


Be angry and do not sin is was Jesus did

Eph 4:25-27  Wherefore, putting away the lying, speak truth each with his neighbour, because we are members one of another; be angry and do not sin; let not the sun go down upon your wrath, neither give place to the devil

Rhys
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 01:20:04 AM by Rhys »
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Jeff

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2015, 01:50:00 AM »

I can appreciate the desire to overcome what we experience in our daily mortal coil, but the fact is, that everything from here on out is ALL spiritual.

Even if this isn't the age in which we see our Messiah return, everything that truly matters is spiritual, and that will only increase as time passes, and God brings more people to the truth.  Mortality is something were required to experience for now but it has no bearing the future.

2 Chorinthians 5:4 "For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."

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Jeff

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2015, 10:00:16 PM »

Kat,

Over the years you've provided a consistently sound perspective regarding God's word and Ray's teachings - so many have.  I'm blessed by your responses over and over.  You have the mind and heart of Christ, and not just you, but truly everyone here.  Your last response in this thread was inspired.  You would put yourself in harms way to protect, but not resort to violence - that is of God.

This is the message of Christ - sacrifice, obedience, faith.  The faith that, if we do our best according to God's will, He'll provide what we lack.

Philippians 4:19 "But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus"

This is Thanksgiving and I'm thankful for everyone here.

Jeff
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indianabob

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2015, 12:38:53 AM »

Friend Kat,

I appreciate your recent comments.
One thing that I haven't noticed being mentioned yet is to completely put our trust in God's protection.
That way we won't have to worry about using lethal force to defend our selves or the children we are responsible for.
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HOWEVER...for this approach to work effectively we each need to stay close to God every day in every way.
We cannot wait until a threat or other emergency arises, we must put our lives in God's hand every morning and every evening and as we walk our walk in daily life.
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God will protect HIS own until their training is completed AND God will intervene for our dear loved ones for our behalf, on our behalf as well. The only thing we need to do is recognize that we NEED that protection and to humble ourselves to seek God's protection ALWAYS.

I've handled guns since I was 16 and in the Military Police and as a police officer for six years. I used to train and practice and learn ways to avoid trouble and what to do if trouble came to me. However, as happens to all of us if we live long enough, I got old! My judo training doesn't help any more and my trigger finger is so arthritic that I can't pull the trigger. Now I have to trust that others will protect me and the best friend to have when trouble comes is our loving creator. That is where I stand now because I have no other choice.

Indiana Bob
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Terry

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2015, 02:27:19 PM »

My Goodness this is a hard one for sure, is true we have Gods word that instructs us on how we are to live,and it would be great to be able to do it, as much as i want to do it, and do the best i can i still come up way short,i'm weak, my faith is weak, i pray that nothing ever happens that i would have to take a life to protect my wife or children but i probably would,i have weapons for hunting,i think of them as insurance also,have you ever heard the sound of a pump shotgun injecting a shell,i know i wouldn't want to be on the business end of that,maybe thats all it would take,as i said i just pray God keeps me safe from all of that,just being honest here.
Terry
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Terry

Colin

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2015, 10:16:47 PM »

Hi Largeli

I discovered from where I had done the transcription (many years ago) that included Ray's mention of  the "gun and the Rotweiler".
It is in the second half and close to the end of the audio, reference http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-3-06MobileConf.7.mp3 
I knew if I looked hard enough, I would find it.     Sorry it took me so long to track it down.    Colin
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cjwood

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2015, 12:25:07 AM »

i know this is a serious discussion, but, if a drunk came into a restaurant looking for a fight and slapped manuela around, that man would have made a huge mistake.  he obviously wouldn't have know who he was dealing with.  she used to work for the police force.  she can be a rottweiler if needed.  she has a gun.   ;D  ;)

claudia
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 12:30:39 AM by cjwood »
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Terry

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2015, 09:47:06 AM »

after i went to bed last night my reply to this discussion bothered me to no end,so while i was laying there three stories came to mind, the first was when David slew Goliath and understanding parables to a degree, i saw where Jesus was protecting his people,second was where David was the shepherd of his flock and how he protected them from any wild beast,and thirdly when Jesus was on the ship with his disciples and the ship was being tossed to and fro and Jesus said peace be still,so after thinking about these stories for a bit i had peace,after all i don't even live close to my children to protect them and if anything should happen i know they will be in the resurrection and we will be together one day,so anyway after thinking on these stories i had peace and went to sleep and slept like a baby.

Terry
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Terry

lauriellen

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2015, 03:56:43 PM »

A couple of quotes above really stood out to me:
"If we truly believe that God is sovereign then we would know and would not resist how things are, but accept whatever God has planned for us and our loved ones and not try to fight against what is predetermined, like we can determine anything anyway."
and
" But to fight against the wickedness in this world is not a battle WE need to or should engage in. God has this age just as He wants it and for those few He is calling out of it He does not want us to fight against what He has determined to be."

I have been thinking a lot about this lately. To do good, such as feeding the hungry, protecting the helpless, to free people from oppression, abuse, etc., does seem to me to be a fight against God Himself. As you say, God has everything just as He wants it. So if I feed the hungry, I am opposing God, as He has determined them to be hungry? And yet, is this not the very thing that Jesus instructed us TO DO? (I was hungry, and you fed me....) What kind of heart would we need to have, to be able to look upon the suffering of those around us, and not be moved to help fight the evil and injustice around us with everything we have?

"WE" use the argument 'what kind of God could consign people to eternal torment in hell and not ever have mercy or compassion on them. It would make God a monster or the worst terrorist ever.'  Could not the same argument be used against a person who watches those around them suffer from evil and wickedness, and NOT do anything about it?

"He does not want us to fight against what He has determined to be."......I really wonder about this statement.....I wonder if we will stand before Christ someday and if He will say to us, "I was hungry and you didn't feed me........."

I think very deeply about these things. The reality for me is, despite the fervent prayers of the righteous, people, even God's best and brightest servants (or maybe even ESPECIALLY His servants), are not always protected from death or evil, are not always healed, are not always delivered. Reading the scriptures, it appears that God was very much more visible and active in the affairs of men. When He moved to do something, it seems like He made it perfectly plain what He was doing and who was doing it. NOW, it seems to me, that He has turned His face away from man. It seems to me that He is making a point to be unseen, unknowable and uninvolved. Of course I believe He most definitely is working all things to the good, but it SEEMS like He is not....So to the world, would not the only CHRIST they will ever see in this present age, be the followers of Christ? And just as Christ did when He was alive on this earth, He HEALED, He FED the masses, He had COMPASSION on everyone around Him. Should we not be doing the same? Or trying anyway to anyway? S if we are truly not to mess with what is, and do nothing to fight evil and suffering, what kind of Christ will the world see in us? A cold, distant, uncaring God? These are just some of the thoughts that I struggle with on a daily basis. Death is not really the issue for me. I accept death....But the suffering caused directly by the evil that God has determined to be, weighs heavy on my heart every day. I cannot accept to turn my heart cold and look away from the misery of others if I am able to do something about it.


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lilitalienboi16

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2015, 07:06:06 PM »

A couple of quotes above really stood out to me:
"If we truly believe that God is sovereign then we would know and would not resist how things are, but accept whatever God has planned for us and our loved ones and not try to fight against what is predetermined, like we can determine anything anyway."
and
" But to fight against the wickedness in this world is not a battle WE need to or should engage in. God has this age just as He wants it and for those few He is calling out of it He does not want us to fight against what He has determined to be."

I have been thinking a lot about this lately. To do good, such as feeding the hungry, protecting the helpless, to free people from oppression, abuse, etc., does seem to me to be a fight against God Himself. As you say, God has everything just as He wants it. So if I feed the hungry, I am opposing God, as He has determined them to be hungry? And yet, is this not the very thing that Jesus instructed us TO DO? (I was hungry, and you fed me....) What kind of heart would we need to have, to be able to look upon the suffering of those around us, and not be moved to help fight the evil and injustice around us with everything we have?

"WE" use the argument 'what kind of God could consign people to eternal torment in hell and not ever have mercy or compassion on them. It would make God a monster or the worst terrorist ever.'  Could not the same argument be used against a person who watches those around them suffer from evil and wickedness, and NOT do anything about it?

"He does not want us to fight against what He has determined to be."......I really wonder about this statement.....I wonder if we will stand before Christ someday and if He will say to us, "I was hungry and you didn't feed me........."

I think very deeply about these things. The reality for me is, despite the fervent prayers of the righteous, people, even God's best and brightest servants (or maybe even ESPECIALLY His servants), are not always protected from death or evil, are not always healed, are not always delivered. Reading the scriptures, it appears that God was very much more visible and active in the affairs of men. When He moved to do something, it seems like He made it perfectly plain what He was doing and who was doing it. NOW, it seems to me, that He has turned His face away from man. It seems to me that He is making a point to be unseen, unknowable and uninvolved. Of course I believe He most definitely is working all things to the good, but it SEEMS like He is not....So to the world, would not the only CHRIST they will ever see in this present age, be the followers of Christ? And just as Christ did when He was alive on this earth, He HEALED, He FED the masses, He had COMPASSION on everyone around Him. Should we not be doing the same? Or trying anyway to anyway? S if we are truly not to mess with what is, and do nothing to fight evil and suffering, what kind of Christ will the world see in us? A cold, distant, uncaring God? These are just some of the thoughts that I struggle with on a daily basis. Death is not really the issue for me. I accept death....But the suffering caused directly by the evil that God has determined to be, weighs heavy on my heart every day. I cannot accept to turn my heart cold and look away from the misery of others if I am able to do something about it.

Matthew 7:15-17
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

James 2:14-26
 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Matthew 5:14-17
 “You are the light of the world. A city situated on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 No one lights a lamp and puts it under a basket, but rather on a lampstand, and it gives light for all who are in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven.

Matthew 6:1-4
 “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of people, to be seen by them. Otherwise, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2 So whenever you give to the poor, don’t sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be applauded by people. I assure you: They’ve got their reward! 3 But when you give to the poor, don’t let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

Titus 3:8  This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Ephesians 2:1-10
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Here is a really good study on Faith and works by ray. I highly recommend going through it again:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------  http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9742.0.html
So if you go around saying, ‘I’m a Christian and I believe.’ Well what do you do when the chips are down? What do you do when the temptation is there? What do you do when somebody needs you and you’re not going to be there for them? It’s, ‘oh I got faith in God.’ No you don’t, you just talk. It’s one thing to believe in God, it’s another thing to act it out. We don’t always do the best job, I know that. But certainly we shouldn’t argue about it, we shouldn’t try to defend our carnal ways, as though it is good to not do what’s right.  I mean that is pretty stupid.

We read in Ephesians that it was this grace, this gift of God through the faith, believing in God, that we will be saved. That our works will not save us, but God through Jesus Christ will perform good works in you. It’s all part of the same package. It’s all within two verses there (Eph 2: 8-9). We already read that. Now notice what James said.

James 2:20  …faith without works is dead?
v. 21  Was not Abraham our father justified by works,

We just read it, “because you have done this thing,” that’s a work. But was there no faith involved? Of course he wouldn’t have done this “thing” except what? He believed God. He said, “through your seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed” (Gen 28:14), and Abraham believed that. Now Isaac is that seed. He thought maybe Ishmael was that seed, remember, by his wife Hagar and he said, ‘oh yea Ishmael.’ Not Ishmael, you are going to have another son. Abraham said, what? Are you crazy, I’m 100 years old and my wife is 95?  God says, we’re going to do it anyway and she gets pregnant… she is blown away, she is pregnant at 95. Of course they lived to be 200 back then, but…

God told Abraham it was through Isaac and then Jacob, who was changed to Israel and there was twelve tribes, one of which was Judea and out of Judea came Jesus Christ. He said it’s through Isaac. Now when He said, I’m going to bless all the families of the earth, through your son Issac, not Ishmael, Isaac. Abraham believed Him, he says he did. 

How can He bless all the nations of the world through the descendants of Isaac, if he kills him? Are you following? Boy what a test.  God says one thing, then He says do another. I’m going to bless the whole world through this son and his descendants, now kill him.  WHAT? Are you crazy God? How is he going to be a blessing if you… He didn’t know what He meant. He didn’t know if maybe God would resurrect him right after he killed him. But he did it and God said “because you have done this thing.” You see? He said whoa, don’t kill your son, he’s going to live, he’s going to give birth to Jacob, Jacob is going to have twelve sons, they are going to be the children of Israel, Judea is going to be one of them, Christ is going to come out of Judea in the line of David and so on.

Can you see how you can not separate the deed from the faith behind it, you can’t separate it. It is utter stupidity to do it, yet the whole world and Christianity… it’s faith alone. Well we are going to see what faith alone is going to do for this world.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Nelson Boils

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2015, 08:28:36 AM »

Felix,

Do you think Jesus used a "scourge of small cords" on the people,or the sheep and oxen?
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lareli

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2015, 02:39:07 PM »

Hi Largeli

I discovered from where I had done the transcription (many years ago) that included Ray's mention of  the "gun and the Rotweiler".
It is in the second half and close to the end of the audio, reference http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-3-06MobileConf.7.mp3 
I knew if I looked hard enough, I would find it.     Sorry it took me so long to track it down.    Colin

Colin thank you for taking the time... I'm going to check it out.

Thank you!
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I’m just what you made God.. ~Kid Cudi

Kat

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2015, 09:19:22 PM »


Hi lauriellen, I understand how these things (that I was speaking of and the things you are speaking of) seem to overlap and go together... but I was speaking of a very specific circumstance, using violent force for protection. When I said those things you quoted it was directly 'in connection' to that situation.

Mat 5:39  But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

When you turn to him the other cheek, that to me is saying do not use violent force even when provoked. Now when you bring up a whole other situation, "To do good, such as feeding the hungry, protecting the helpless, to free people from oppression, abuse, etc.," yes it is the way it is predetermined to be in this age, but those same quotes I said about not being violent, certainly would not and should not apply to our helping people in need.

Even thought this age is what it is and for now we "always have the poor" (Matt 26:11), it's not that we can change how this age is, but it is an opportunity to do good works and by helping the needy, I do not see it as resisting evil, but more like letting "your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven" (Matt 5:16).

Gal 6:9  And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.
v. 10  Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 01:02:29 AM by Kat »
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lauriellen

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2015, 02:02:00 PM »

I am really not trying to be argumentative. I realize this post is about violence and I understand the point being made. But, I think about this a lot....where do we draw the line? I agree that it is good to 'resist evil' by feeding the poor, doing good in a non-violent manner, etc., but where is the line? We can go "this" far, but not "this far"? And here is the reason I think upon these things so deeply. I live on a ranch. My family makes our living from livestock. I have defended my livestock many times by killing predators threatening my livestock. I have taken the life of downed cattle with broken legs/back, that will suffer and die horribly if not mercifully ending their suffering. But if a human predator was attacking my family, I would not be able to use  force to stop it? So, with the reasoning above, I can not protect my livestock, and I especially can not protect my family. By the reasoning above, would I not be obligated to stop raising livestock all together for food, as I know they are being raised to be killed (which is a form of violence against animals) ? Should I become a vegetarian farmer instead? I wonder how many here are strictly vegans because eating meat means the killing of animals and is violent? As far as I understand, Jesus ate meat? Or, perhaps, was His instructions to not resist evil a specific instruction given to a specific group (the deciples) for a specific ministry? I know He said AS MUCH AS IT DEPENDS ON YOU, live peaceably with all men (and I feel like I do this), so does that also give a little room for the reasonable action to protect using the minimum amount of force possible? I don't know the answer, and I am not sure that there is just ONE answer to every situation. I take no joy from any form of violence, but I have accepted that it is a part of the world we live in, and weather we take up arms or just eat meat, we are participating in it weather we acknowledge it or not. If anyone who has not watched an animal being butchered thinks that it is not violent, I urge you to just watch it once. It will change your perspective on those pretty little packages of meat you buy at the grocery store.
respectfully,
lauriellen
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2015, 03:39:07 PM »

I am really not trying to be argumentative. I realize this post is about violence and I understand the point being made. But, I think about this a lot....where do we draw the line? I agree that it is good to 'resist evil' by feeding the poor, doing good in a non-violent manner, etc., but where is the line? We can go "this" far, but not "this far"? And here is the reason I think upon these things so deeply. I live on a ranch. My family makes our living from livestock. I have defended my livestock many times by killing predators threatening my livestock. I have taken the life of downed cattle with broken legs/back, that will suffer and die horribly if not mercifully ending their suffering. But if a human predator was attacking my family, I would not be able to use  force to stop it? So, with the reasoning above, I can not protect my livestock, and I especially can not protect my family. By the reasoning above, would I not be obligated to stop raising livestock all together for food, as I know they are being raised to be killed (which is a form of violence against animals) ? Should I become a vegetarian farmer instead? I wonder how many here are strictly vegans because eating meat means the killing of animals and is violent? As far as I understand, Jesus ate meat? Or, perhaps, was His instructions to not resist evil a specific instruction given to a specific group (the deciples) for a specific ministry? I know He said AS MUCH AS IT DEPENDS ON YOU, live peaceably with all men (and I feel like I do this), so does that also give a little room for the reasonable action to protect using the minimum amount of force possible? I don't know the answer, and I am not sure that there is just ONE answer to every situation. I take no joy from any form of violence, but I have accepted that it is a part of the world we live in, and weather we take up arms or just eat meat, we are participating in it weather we acknowledge it or not. If anyone who has not watched an animal being butchered thinks that it is not violent, I urge you to just watch it once. It will change your perspective on those pretty little packages of meat you buy at the grocery store.
respectfully,
lauriellen

Hi Lauri,

I think there is a big difference between doing harm to another person and doing harm to an animal. The scriptures make it plain that the animals were given to us for food.

Gen 1:30  Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food"; and it was so.

Genesis 9:1-7
1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.

Was it not daily that by the commandments of God the animals were sacrificed [killed] constantly at the alter?

Furthermore, killing and murder are two different things. While murder always involves killing, killing is not always murder. We kill animals, we murder people.

kill·ing
ˈkiliNG/Submit
noun
1. an act of causing death, especially deliberately.

mur·der
ˈmərdər/Submit
noun
1. the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

You saw in Genesis the warning against shedding the blood of another person. Here are more admonishments against murder:

Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Matthew 15:16-20
16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Exo 20:13  Thou shalt not murder.

So then love really is the fulfillment of the law because love does no harm to another PERSON.

Rom 13:9  For the commandments, "You must not commit adultery; you must not murder; you must not steal; you must not covet," and every other commandment are summed up in this statement: "You must love your neighbor as yourself."
Rom 13:10  Love never does anything that is harmful to its neighbor. Therefore, love is the fulfillment of the Law.

Matthew 22:36-40
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets

Strong's -- Neighbor: that is FELLOW (as MAN....).

I think the scriptures are clear on these matters. The biggest stumbling block for most people in the world is simply believing the scriptures. Believing what is right in front of them.

God bless,
Alex
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 03:57:32 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

lauriellen

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2015, 05:36:40 PM »

Alex you precisely made my point. Killing and murder are not the same. I agree it is wrong to murder someone, but I wonder if killing is sometimes justified. Does not God himself kill without sin?
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Kat

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2015, 06:50:32 PM »

lauriellen, yes the world does believe it is okay to 'kill' your enemy, that is the teaching of the old testament and what the whole world lives by.

Lev 26:2  You shall keep My Sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary: I am the LORD.
v. 3  'If you walk in My statutes and keep My commandments, and perform them,

Lev 26:7  You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you.


A few chosen people are being taught the truth, that one day all mankind will be saved and all will be sisters and brothers in Christ. Though that isn't until the next age when all people will be taught righteous and how to live together in peace... a few are learning to come out of the ways of this world and be different now. Christ is teaching a few that the new covenant is about the spiritual laws that He gave to His Apostles and on to us. These spiritual laws not only teach us 'not' to kill another person, but that we should 'love' all people even our enemies, and you certainly would not kill those you should love.

Mat 5:43  "You have heard that it was said, 'You must love your neighbor' and hate your enemy.
v. 44  But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,

You need to make the distinction though, that killing an animal is completely different than killing a person. Animals are given for human to have dominion over (Gen 1:26. 28) and consume (Gen 1:30)... certainly slaughter should be done in a humane manner, thought I suppose it usually is not.

And we cannot compare what we as humans do, with what our perfect God does that has given us all life in this world to start with. He actually brings about the ultimate death of all people that live, as He is responsible for all life and death in this creation.

Now if it is confusing as to where to draw the line, Scripture tells us exactly where that line is... you are just making it more confusing by bringing up all kinds of differing scenarios that actually do not apply to this very specific thing of killing another human being.

Rom 12:17  Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all.
v. 18  If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.
v. 19  Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."

The chosen are being prepared now in this age how to live by God's spiritual laws that will be applied to all people in the next age. No matter what life we were living before God opened our eyes, when we learn these truths, we are then to be different and not like the world any longer. We must love others as much as we love ourselves, and you certainly would not want to kill somebody else, any more than you would kill yourself (not if you are living by God's truths anyway). It's a process to learn to put out faith and trust totally in an invisible God, but that is exactly what we have to do and with the Spirit indwelling we can!

Mar 12:28  And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that He answered them well, asked Him, "Which commandment is the most important of all?"
v. 29  Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
v. 30  And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
v. 31  The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 07:05:21 PM by Kat »
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