> General Discussions
"So - Is there any difference?"
Terry:
after i went to bed last night my reply to this discussion bothered me to no end,so while i was laying there three stories came to mind, the first was when David slew Goliath and understanding parables to a degree, i saw where Jesus was protecting his people,second was where David was the shepherd of his flock and how he protected them from any wild beast,and thirdly when Jesus was on the ship with his disciples and the ship was being tossed to and fro and Jesus said peace be still,so after thinking about these stories for a bit i had peace,after all i don't even live close to my children to protect them and if anything should happen i know they will be in the resurrection and we will be together one day,so anyway after thinking on these stories i had peace and went to sleep and slept like a baby.
Terry
lauriellen:
A couple of quotes above really stood out to me:
"If we truly believe that God is sovereign then we would know and would not resist how things are, but accept whatever God has planned for us and our loved ones and not try to fight against what is predetermined, like we can determine anything anyway."
and
" But to fight against the wickedness in this world is not a battle WE need to or should engage in. God has this age just as He wants it and for those few He is calling out of it He does not want us to fight against what He has determined to be."
I have been thinking a lot about this lately. To do good, such as feeding the hungry, protecting the helpless, to free people from oppression, abuse, etc., does seem to me to be a fight against God Himself. As you say, God has everything just as He wants it. So if I feed the hungry, I am opposing God, as He has determined them to be hungry? And yet, is this not the very thing that Jesus instructed us TO DO? (I was hungry, and you fed me....) What kind of heart would we need to have, to be able to look upon the suffering of those around us, and not be moved to help fight the evil and injustice around us with everything we have?
"WE" use the argument 'what kind of God could consign people to eternal torment in hell and not ever have mercy or compassion on them. It would make God a monster or the worst terrorist ever.' Could not the same argument be used against a person who watches those around them suffer from evil and wickedness, and NOT do anything about it?
"He does not want us to fight against what He has determined to be."......I really wonder about this statement.....I wonder if we will stand before Christ someday and if He will say to us, "I was hungry and you didn't feed me........."
I think very deeply about these things. The reality for me is, despite the fervent prayers of the righteous, people, even God's best and brightest servants (or maybe even ESPECIALLY His servants), are not always protected from death or evil, are not always healed, are not always delivered. Reading the scriptures, it appears that God was very much more visible and active in the affairs of men. When He moved to do something, it seems like He made it perfectly plain what He was doing and who was doing it. NOW, it seems to me, that He has turned His face away from man. It seems to me that He is making a point to be unseen, unknowable and uninvolved. Of course I believe He most definitely is working all things to the good, but it SEEMS like He is not....So to the world, would not the only CHRIST they will ever see in this present age, be the followers of Christ? And just as Christ did when He was alive on this earth, He HEALED, He FED the masses, He had COMPASSION on everyone around Him. Should we not be doing the same? Or trying anyway to anyway? S if we are truly not to mess with what is, and do nothing to fight evil and suffering, what kind of Christ will the world see in us? A cold, distant, uncaring God? These are just some of the thoughts that I struggle with on a daily basis. Death is not really the issue for me. I accept death....But the suffering caused directly by the evil that God has determined to be, weighs heavy on my heart every day. I cannot accept to turn my heart cold and look away from the misery of others if I am able to do something about it.
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: lauriellen on November 27, 2015, 12:56:43 PM ---A couple of quotes above really stood out to me:
"If we truly believe that God is sovereign then we would know and would not resist how things are, but accept whatever God has planned for us and our loved ones and not try to fight against what is predetermined, like we can determine anything anyway."
and
" But to fight against the wickedness in this world is not a battle WE need to or should engage in. God has this age just as He wants it and for those few He is calling out of it He does not want us to fight against what He has determined to be."
I have been thinking a lot about this lately. To do good, such as feeding the hungry, protecting the helpless, to free people from oppression, abuse, etc., does seem to me to be a fight against God Himself. As you say, God has everything just as He wants it. So if I feed the hungry, I am opposing God, as He has determined them to be hungry? And yet, is this not the very thing that Jesus instructed us TO DO? (I was hungry, and you fed me....) What kind of heart would we need to have, to be able to look upon the suffering of those around us, and not be moved to help fight the evil and injustice around us with everything we have?
"WE" use the argument 'what kind of God could consign people to eternal torment in hell and not ever have mercy or compassion on them. It would make God a monster or the worst terrorist ever.' Could not the same argument be used against a person who watches those around them suffer from evil and wickedness, and NOT do anything about it?
"He does not want us to fight against what He has determined to be."......I really wonder about this statement.....I wonder if we will stand before Christ someday and if He will say to us, "I was hungry and you didn't feed me........."
I think very deeply about these things. The reality for me is, despite the fervent prayers of the righteous, people, even God's best and brightest servants (or maybe even ESPECIALLY His servants), are not always protected from death or evil, are not always healed, are not always delivered. Reading the scriptures, it appears that God was very much more visible and active in the affairs of men. When He moved to do something, it seems like He made it perfectly plain what He was doing and who was doing it. NOW, it seems to me, that He has turned His face away from man. It seems to me that He is making a point to be unseen, unknowable and uninvolved. Of course I believe He most definitely is working all things to the good, but it SEEMS like He is not....So to the world, would not the only CHRIST they will ever see in this present age, be the followers of Christ? And just as Christ did when He was alive on this earth, He HEALED, He FED the masses, He had COMPASSION on everyone around Him. Should we not be doing the same? Or trying anyway to anyway? S if we are truly not to mess with what is, and do nothing to fight evil and suffering, what kind of Christ will the world see in us? A cold, distant, uncaring God? These are just some of the thoughts that I struggle with on a daily basis. Death is not really the issue for me. I accept death....But the suffering caused directly by the evil that God has determined to be, weighs heavy on my heart every day. I cannot accept to turn my heart cold and look away from the misery of others if I am able to do something about it.
--- End quote ---
Matthew 7:15-17
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
James 2:14-26
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Matthew 5:14-17
“You are the light of the world. A city situated on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 No one lights a lamp and puts it under a basket, but rather on a lampstand, and it gives light for all who are in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven.
Matthew 6:1-4
“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of people, to be seen by them. Otherwise, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2 So whenever you give to the poor, don’t sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be applauded by people. I assure you: They’ve got their reward! 3 But when you give to the poor, don’t let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Ephesians 2:1-10
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Here is a really good study on Faith and works by ray. I highly recommend going through it again:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9742.0.html
So if you go around saying, ‘I’m a Christian and I believe.’ Well what do you do when the chips are down? What do you do when the temptation is there? What do you do when somebody needs you and you’re not going to be there for them? It’s, ‘oh I got faith in God.’ No you don’t, you just talk. It’s one thing to believe in God, it’s another thing to act it out. We don’t always do the best job, I know that. But certainly we shouldn’t argue about it, we shouldn’t try to defend our carnal ways, as though it is good to not do what’s right. I mean that is pretty stupid.
We read in Ephesians that it was this grace, this gift of God through the faith, believing in God, that we will be saved. That our works will not save us, but God through Jesus Christ will perform good works in you. It’s all part of the same package. It’s all within two verses there (Eph 2: 8-9). We already read that. Now notice what James said.
James 2:20 …faith without works is dead?
v. 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works,
We just read it, “because you have done this thing,” that’s a work. But was there no faith involved? Of course he wouldn’t have done this “thing” except what? He believed God. He said, “through your seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed” (Gen 28:14), and Abraham believed that. Now Isaac is that seed. He thought maybe Ishmael was that seed, remember, by his wife Hagar and he said, ‘oh yea Ishmael.’ Not Ishmael, you are going to have another son. Abraham said, what? Are you crazy, I’m 100 years old and my wife is 95? God says, we’re going to do it anyway and she gets pregnant… she is blown away, she is pregnant at 95. Of course they lived to be 200 back then, but…
God told Abraham it was through Isaac and then Jacob, who was changed to Israel and there was twelve tribes, one of which was Judea and out of Judea came Jesus Christ. He said it’s through Isaac. Now when He said, I’m going to bless all the families of the earth, through your son Issac, not Ishmael, Isaac. Abraham believed Him, he says he did.
How can He bless all the nations of the world through the descendants of Isaac, if he kills him? Are you following? Boy what a test. God says one thing, then He says do another. I’m going to bless the whole world through this son and his descendants, now kill him. WHAT? Are you crazy God? How is he going to be a blessing if you… He didn’t know what He meant. He didn’t know if maybe God would resurrect him right after he killed him. But he did it and God said “because you have done this thing.” You see? He said whoa, don’t kill your son, he’s going to live, he’s going to give birth to Jacob, Jacob is going to have twelve sons, they are going to be the children of Israel, Judea is going to be one of them, Christ is going to come out of Judea in the line of David and so on.
Can you see how you can not separate the deed from the faith behind it, you can’t separate it. It is utter stupidity to do it, yet the whole world and Christianity… it’s faith alone. Well we are going to see what faith alone is going to do for this world.
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God bless,
Alex
Nelson Boils:
Felix,
Do you think Jesus used a "scourge of small cords" on the people,or the sheep and oxen?
lareli:
--- Quote from: Colin on November 26, 2015, 07:16:47 PM ---Hi Largeli
I discovered from where I had done the transcription (many years ago) that included Ray's mention of the "gun and the Rotweiler".
It is in the second half and close to the end of the audio, reference http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-3-06MobileConf.7.mp3
I knew if I looked hard enough, I would find it. Sorry it took me so long to track it down. Colin
--- End quote ---
Colin thank you for taking the time... I'm going to check it out.
Thank you!
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