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Author Topic: "So - Is there any difference?"  (Read 13605 times)

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lilitalienboi16

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2015, 07:56:26 PM »

God has the right to kill because He alone makes alive. We humans do not have power over the spirit, to give life or take it back. This belongs to God alone.

Job 5:18 For he wounds, but he also binds up; he injures, but his hands also heal.

1 Samuel 2:6 "The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up.

Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Deuteronomy 32:40 And say, I am the life, unto times age-abiding:

Killing another person--MURDER--is NEVER justified for us to do in the eyes of God. Humanity has yet much to learn and for most it will be in the next age in the lake. The scriptures have been presented to you and they are very plain. There is no confusion unless you wrestle with the scriptures to your own destruction.

God be with you,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

judy

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2015, 09:49:18 PM »

kat, you used two words, deliberate and premeditated. In an unexpected act of violence against another i do not see where there is much time (usually these sort of things go down very quickly) where there is no time to deliberate or premeditate it is just a reaction by instinct. I certainly would not judge another for protecting  themselves.
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lauriellen

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2015, 10:20:06 PM »

God forbid that any of us be put in a situation where we would have to defend ourselves or others by force. I agree that we should shun violence with everything we have. Having said that, I disagree that all killing is murder, and I agree with Judy that none of us know with certainty what we would do in an unexpected situation when there is no time to think and a reflex/instinctual reaction takes over. I guess whatever we are led to do at that moment will be what God has willed for us to do. I always pray that God would deliver my family and I from all evil, and I also know by experience that He doesn't always. So, in every situation, my prayer is that God's will be done. I ask for guidance and deliverance, I am accountable, but as Ray used to say, God is responsible.
lauriellen.
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Kat

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2015, 12:47:34 AM »


We should not be the way we used to be, we are not like the world, we do not operate according to the carnal instinct(?), we do not kill... that is the way of the old self, the way of the world.

Eph 4:17  Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles (Strong's - heathen) do, in the futility of their minds.
v. 18  They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.
v. 19  They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity.
v. 20  But that is not the way you learned Christ!—

Eph 4:30  And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
v. 31  Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.

John 14:16  And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
v. 17  even the Spirit of truth (Jesus Christ), whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. You know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

When Christ's Spirit comes indwelling, we are "renewed in the spirit of our minds," so that we no longer think like the world, our attitude is changed and we no longer depend on our self or the world for protection, our faith must be in God.

Eph 4:23  and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds,
v. 24  and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Rom 6:6  We know that our old self was crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

When Christ has clearly instructed us to "repay no one evil for evil," how can you think it is okay if you kill somebody for any reason? If we are obeying and feeding His Spirit within us, it will change our attitude about these things until our mind agrees with His Spirit in us. We must overcome the world and His Spirit in us will do just that.

John 3:30  He must increase, but I must decrease."
v. 31  He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth (Strong's - world) belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all.

1John 5:4  For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 12:53:19 AM by Kat »
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Rolihlahla

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2015, 02:49:51 PM »

"Trust me when I say that if it has not yet happened, it will, when your faith with be tried in a way that is just between you and your God, and there won't even be time to send me an email.  Bottom line: Don't try to come up with 'hypothetical' situations in which you think that the laws of God and the ways of God would not be fair, or practical, or logical, and therefore would have to be changed, altered, or just totally thrown away as useless in practical, real life situations.

The shame is that many people who have used alternative measures to God's ways, and have failed in so doing, will never know how things would have been different had they just trusted God in the first place.  It is oh so true, that "we learn obedience by the things WE SUFFER." - L.Ray Smith
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Joel

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2015, 01:18:49 AM »

The scriptures are abundantly clear as to how we should conduct ourselves as a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Many of those scriptures are brought to our attention here.
The way I see it there is a big difference in being a doer of the Word, and being hearers only.

James 1:22-But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Joel
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judy

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2015, 03:40:38 PM »

To all, i have to be perfectly honest with you because that's who I am. My son (at a party) was speaking to a sister of a old high school buddy and the older man with her who, by the way, had a track record a mile long took umbrage and was jealous. At this time my son had only a speeding ticket on his record and also an article in the paper where he captured 2 guys stealing from the park across the way. He held one down at gunpoint and the other ran away. He did not try to shoot the runner.
The older man and his girlfriend were found to be high on crack, the man started to get nasty, my son left immediately for his truck but the man caught him and took him down, the girl appeared and both were kicking him in the head and beating him. My son felt himself go in and out of consciousness and thought , "who would raise my son if i died". He had raised him from  a baby by himself, the mother was mostly absent  .At that point he shot the man, the man died. This was all caught on video and my son was released without even bond. This subject is too close to home and not far away in time yet. My son went onto a terrible depression questioning over and over whether he could have done something different. He wishes it never happened and he really hasn't been the same since. And if you want justice how about this, one year later his son who had Auspergers shot himself in the head and died. Was this the vengeance of God? I do not know. Looking back my grandson would have gone with his mother which is what the child always wanted, his mother. I;ll never understand. maybe you can see the dilemna. Perhaps it would have been better, I surely couldn't choose. judy
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lareli

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2015, 04:03:07 PM »

Judy. That's a tragic situation.. Wow. So sorry.



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lauriellen

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2015, 05:28:38 PM »

Judy I am so sorry. That is exactly why I have said that not all killing is murder. And it is ESPECIALLY NOT as someone wrote above, most people are NOT out looking for any excuse to "kill someone for any reason".....most, including myself, would rather be left alone, we seek peace earnestly, we pray to be delivered from evil, we pray that we would never be forced to use force to defend ourselves or our family, but sometimes, life just puts you in a corner that way. Your son did not go looking for trouble. He sought the way of peace and tried to leave. How could anyone find fault with a person only trying to defend themselves, not because they wanted to or was looking for any excuse to kill some, simply trying to live peaceable among others as much as it depended upon him, but they would not let him alone. I can not find where Jesus told the soldier that he was a murderer and must change professions. He said He didn't see anyone with as much faith as the soldier had. With the line of reasoning above, you are saying that our PEACE officers and military are MURDERERS, not peacekeepers or protectors who only KILL when the evil people FORCE them to, but make it sound like they are looking for any excuse to murder someone. I just don't know about that .... all I know to say is God's will be done.
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2015, 06:32:57 PM »

Judy I am so sorry. That is exactly why I have said that not all killing is murder. And it is ESPECIALLY NOT as someone wrote above, most people are NOT out looking for any excuse to "kill someone for any reason".....most, including myself, would rather be left alone, we seek peace earnestly, we pray to be delivered from evil, we pray that we would never be forced to use force to defend ourselves or our family, but sometimes, life just puts you in a corner that way. Your son did not go looking for trouble. He sought the way of peace and tried to leave. How could anyone find fault with a person only trying to defend themselves, not because they wanted to or was looking for any excuse to kill some, simply trying to live peaceable among others as much as it depended upon him, but they would not let him alone. I can not find where Jesus told the soldier that he was a murderer and must change professions. He said He didn't see anyone with as much faith as the soldier had. With the line of reasoning above, you are saying that our PEACE officers and military are MURDERERS, not peacekeepers or protectors who only KILL when the evil people FORCE them to, but make it sound like they are looking for any excuse to murder someone. I just don't know about that .... all I know to say is God's will be done.

Lauri,

You are correct that I should not have stated all killing of persons is murder because murder is defined as pre-meditated unlawful act of killing another person. I was careless and did not pay attention to the unlawful and premeditated part of the definition I used. I was wrong on that.

My incorrect understanding of the English word though does not change what we are being taught in scripture is the proper way to behave towards those who would seek us harm. Jesus IS our example. We are to be like Him! The apostles left an example as well. None returned violence for violence, an eye for an eye. That is what Jesus preached against! While Jesus did not say anything to that particular soldier about his current vocation, He also did not say it was okay to kill in self defense.  Countless scriptures presented in this thread testify to the complete opposite of what you are saying. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established because no verse is becoming its own interpretation. It appears you are disregarding these witnesses presented and even pitting them against a single verse (Luke 3:14) which neither argues for nor against your point (that is; killing in self defense is okay).

Jesus said if you cannot deny yourself then you are not worthy of me. The calling is very high and while I can speak to no one's particular circumstance, I can speak to what I know is testified to plainly in our faces.

You cannot turn and give the other cheek whilst also killing to defend it (your other cheek). You can't love your enemies and also kill them. You can't 'put your sword in its place' while also using it to kill.

God's spiritual calling is a high one and its not for everyone. Many of Christ's own disciples turned and followed Him no more because what He was teaching was too heavy for them.

I don't know how I would react in an unfortunate situation as Judy's son found himself in but as ray said,

"The shame is that many people who have used alternative measures to God's ways, and have failed in so doing, will never know how things would have been different had they just trusted God in the first place.  It is oh so true, that "we learn obedience by the things WE SUFFER.""

I too, like you, pray the Lord keep me from such an evil day as judy's son experienced.

In the end, all I know is what God's spirit tells me is right by His Word and I hope and pray that by His grace and mercy I will do the right and good thing all my life that I may know Him more and become more like Him.

I will say nothing more on the matter.

God be with you,
Alex
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 06:55:01 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

lareli

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2015, 07:01:03 PM »

Wait... So killing is bad. Unless I'm wearing an official uniform with a shiny badge? As long as there's some writing on a piece of paper somewhere and we call it "law" then it's ok? Kinda like magic.. Killing is wrong unless you have a magic uniform and use the magic word "law".

Law enforcement killed Christ.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 08:01:30 PM by largeli »
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Kat

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2015, 07:45:22 PM »


There is the way of the world/age that is according to the ruler of it - Satan... we, only a very few must stand apart from that way.

1John 5:18  We know that the person who has been born (begotten) from God does not go on sinning. Rather, the Son of God protects them, and the evil one cannot harm them.
v. 19  We know that we are from God and that the whole world lies under the control of the evil one. (ISV)

Eph 2:1  And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
v. 2  in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—

lauriellen, it is your choice to believe and live as you so desire... you believe, according to the law of the land, that you can kill somebody to defend yourself or family - maybe so, but God says "do NOT resist evil." There is the ways of the world and then there is the ways of God and there is a huge difference between the two... to kill or not to kill is one of these differences. Either you are carnal minded - worldly or spiritual minded.

James 4:4  Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

You can decide whatever you want to on this... but trying to make a stand on this here? You should not think it strange that you are being opposed here.

Pro 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 11:46:17 PM by Kat »
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lauriellen

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #52 on: December 02, 2015, 12:53:16 AM »

Kat, I truly would never want to hurt anyone. I hope and pray that I am never in that situation. I hope and pray to do only what is right and pleasing to God if I am. I try to make sense of scripture as best I can with the limited understanding that God has given me. I also would never judge anyone or think myself more righteous than someone who has been led to defend themselves. You said that it is MY choice to believe and live as I desire.....If I understand Ray's teaching correctly, I can only choose the ONE POSSIBLE choice that God has already determined for me to make, as I understand that He is in control of every circumstance that influences my every belief and choice.
If I am lucky enough to be counted among the few (and I would never be so bold as to assume that I am one of the 'we'), God will see to it that I do the right thing. If I am not, then no amount of effort and scripture reading will give me the ability to do the right thing. Either way, my life is His, and I am at peace with that. God help us all.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 12:59:15 AM by lauriellen »
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Kat

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #53 on: December 02, 2015, 01:19:01 AM »


In discussing these things it does get personal when we bring our feelings into it, you have stated your opinion and I have stated mine, that is the discussion. But do not think that I'm personally judging you on this, this is about what I'm seeing in the Scripture and how to obey what God is teaching us.

Yes we are making choices by what our understanding is on a matter and WE will be help accountable for those choices. God is ultimately responsible for making things as they are, but we will give account, because we think and reason and choose what we want or think is right.

http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm -------------

For if God is in control of everything, and He has done everything "according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His Will" - then how can we be held accountable for the things that we "do"?

Respectfully,

Chris

[Ray Replies]

Dear Chris:

 You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you.  God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!

When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE!  True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.

 But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT! 

Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying:  Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED?  Why?   Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.

 This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them.  IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT.   "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.

Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.

 It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.

God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well!  We have this absolute promise from God:


"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!

God be with you,

 Ray
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Jeff

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #54 on: December 02, 2015, 01:20:48 AM »

To all, i have to be perfectly honest with you because that's who I am. My son (at a party) was speaking to a sister of a old high school buddy and the older man with her who, by the way, had a track record a mile long took umbrage and was jealous. At this time my son had only a speeding ticket on his record and also an article in the paper where he captured 2 guys stealing from the park across the way. He held one down at gunpoint and the other ran away. He did not try to shoot the runner.
The older man and his girlfriend were found to be high on crack, the man started to get nasty, my son left immediately for his truck but the man caught him and took him down, the girl appeared and both were kicking him in the head and beating him. My son felt himself go in and out of consciousness and thought , "who would raise my son if i died". He had raised him from  a baby by himself, the mother was mostly absent  .At that point he shot the man, the man died. This was all caught on video and my son was released without even bond. This subject is too close to home and not far away in time yet. My son went onto a terrible depression questioning over and over whether he could have done something different. He wishes it never happened and he really hasn't been the same since. And if you want justice how about this, one year later his son who had Auspergers shot himself in the head and died. Was this the vengeance of God? I do not know. Looking back my grandson would have gone with his mother which is what the child always wanted, his mother. I;ll never understand. maybe you can see the dilemna. Perhaps it would have been better, I surely couldn't choose. judy

Judy,

I'm devastated by what you, your son, and grandson experienced.  This is nothing but a tragedy.  It isn't Gods vengeance - God is love.  This is a trial and if nothing else it makes me realize how trivial my own trials are.  My heart, thoughts, and prayers are with you.

I pray for peace for you and your son.

Jeff
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virginiabm

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #55 on: December 02, 2015, 09:02:13 AM »

Judy, my heart goes out to you and your son. My prayers are with you both. I pray that your son can find peace with the help of God, that's the only way. It seems when we do somethig to others even when we are protecting ourselves or someone else we have to live with the guilt of our actions I know because I have been in that situation.  I don't believe we should use violence if we are to be one of God's chosen, because the word of God says so and God knows when one human being hurts another human being there is going to be guilt especially if God is choosing you to be one of His in this  age. We be put in a private prison in our minds and it leaves very little room to think about God when we are so consumed with what we did or didn't do. I have been there and done that. It is a horrible place to be, overthinking our actions.  If God be willing I hope none of us find ourselves in a situation where we might have to make a quick call, but if we do may God's will be done. May God put peace and comfort in your heart Judy and give rest to your soul.
   
                      Your sister in Christ,
                        Virginia Miller
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judy

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #56 on: December 03, 2015, 04:54:49 PM »

Jeff and all the others who are attempting to walk through that straight and narrow gait I take each answer seriously and ponder. I must get used to the fact I will never know for sure the correct answer, if there is one. I do feel your compassion and even with the Word of God butting up against all our human nature how you stick to the Word. I try too hard to figure things out and must realize I just can't. I admire people who hold their ground and at the same time show understanding of our humanity. There are no finer people i know than those who question, struggle and yet attempt practicality in this unholy world. God bless each and every one of you, you will never know how much I appreciate your trying.  No better Christians could I ask for and be a part of. I love all of you. Sincerely, judy

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lilitalienboi16

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2015, 08:04:25 PM »

Jeff and all the others who are attempting to walk through that straight and narrow gait I take each answer seriously and ponder. I must get used to the fact I will never know for sure the correct answer, if there is one. I do feel your compassion and even with the Word of God butting up against all our human nature how you stick to the Word. I try too hard to figure things out and must realize I just can't. I admire people who hold their ground and at the same time show understanding of our humanity. There are no finer people i know than those who question, struggle and yet attempt practicality in this unholy world. God bless each and every one of you, you will never know how much I appreciate your trying.  No better Christians could I ask for and be a part of. I love all of you. Sincerely, judy

As Kat is fond of saying, "Mercy, peace, and love" to you Judy. May God make straight the path and safe the way that lead's to Him for all those who are loving Him. It is all we can hope and pray for in this present all too abundantly evil age.

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Jeff

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2015, 08:52:56 PM »

Jeff and all the others who are attempting to walk through that straight and narrow gait I take each answer seriously and ponder. I must get used to the fact I will never know for sure the correct answer, if there is one. I do feel your compassion and even with the Word of God butting up against all our human nature how you stick to the Word. I try too hard to figure things out and must realize I just can't. I admire people who hold their ground and at the same time show understanding of our humanity. There are no finer people i know than those who question, struggle and yet attempt practicality in this unholy world. God bless each and every one of you, you will never know how much I appreciate your trying.  No better Christians could I ask for and be a part of. I love all of you. Sincerely, judy

As Kat is fond of saying, "Mercy, peace, and love" to you Judy. May God make straight the path and safe the way that lead's to Him for all those who are loving Him. It is all we can hope and pray for in this present all too abundantly evil age.

God bless,
Alex

AMEN! Alex :)
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Jeff

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Re: "So - Is there any difference?"
« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2015, 09:14:00 PM »

I think what you've shared, Kat, both Ray's teachings, and your own personal perspective, is inspired.  I really believe that - actually I can see it.

We're called to love our enemies and be at peace with everyone as much as it is up to us - referring to Romans 12:18.  That's how we're meant to live.  Jesus harmed no one - he healed, ministered, taught, and corrected, and that's love.  As it's been mentioned (I think) - He healed the servants ear when it was cut off - Mark 14:47 and we're to model ourselves after Christ - and Kat, I think you expressed that beautifully.

I also think that if we failed to live up to Christs example, for instance seeing someone being harmed, and in the process killed someone, we're forgiven.  And in making that choice we get to experience all of the horror that comes from taking a life. We don't escape that.  It isn't something we would just shake off.  We would suffer, and I have to believe that God would use that to our advantage, as we learn humility.

Romans 8:28 "...all things work together..."
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