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[Nelson Boils]

"Matthew 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
I know people who would teach that to the hilt.  That [kind of] person would never think to have a gun, that if an enemy approached he would shoot them…NEVER.    But he does have a mean Rottweiler.
So  - is there any difference?  You’ve got a gun…I’ve got a Rottweiler.   That’s fooling yourself, not fooling God.   Talk about a converted heart…the carnal mind will devise ways to pretend it’s keeping the “higher commandments” - it’s NOT.  People come up with trickery, tomfoolery, as they say."  - L.Ray Smith

Or someone has a security company guarding his house, so that should the enemy try to steal from him,the security guys can come and shoot the enemy for him - basically,the security company will do the deed for him.

"So - is there any difference? You've got a gun...I've got a Rottweiler" and he's got a security company guarding his home or business?

[arion]

Question;

Suppose when Ray was still alive that he and Manuella were sitting at a table in a restaurant quietly eating their dinner and minding their own business.  In walks a drunk looking for a fight.  Ray tries to ignore him and then the guy starts to push Manuella around and strike at her.  Do we think that Ray would just sit there and not defend his wife because after all he has to 'love his enemy'. 

We can get stupid about these things and religion sometimes gets stupid.  We know that God loves us and yet, sometimes he becomes harsh [our perception] with us....does he not?  Does that mean he no longer loves us?  And also look at how God deals with the wicked.  He even kills the wicked man and yet without sin.  And yet he loves the wicked man as we know he sees him as he shall be someday and not as he currently is.

We are not God of course and neither is it our task to judge the wicked in this lifetime.  We are to live at peace with all men as much as we are able.  I want to get out of this life with never having to take another life or hurt anyone else and I pray that God never puts me in that position where I would do so.  Up until now I've never had to do that.  I served in the military for many years and was ready to take a life and yet God was merciful to me and I never did so even though at the time I would of thought I was justified because I was serving my country. 

I don't have a Rottweiler but if I was married, had small children and happened to have one as a pet and if that pet dissuaded someone from breaking into my home or harming my children I wouldn't think it to be a bad thing.  This is a wicked and violent world that we have to live in.  It is my goal to get out of this life in a way that honors God in what I do.  I just pray I'm never put into a situation where I would do something that would dishonor my calling and so far that has been the case.

[Kat]

Hi Nelson, we certainly live in a hostile world, we know full well there is crime and corruption everywhere. We work to make ourselves's a comfortable home and we certainly don't want anybody to break in a steal our stuff, much less do harm to our family. Even when we are out somebody could rob us and take our money. How do we defend ourselves? Should we arm ourselves so we can protect what is ours? Is it alright in the eyes of God to kill a thief/enemy in order to protect yourself, family and home? I think it is about attitude... do we plan how we should protect what is ours, buy a gun, just in case? Is there certain circumstances that would allow yo to kill somebody that threatened you?

Well the answer is in the Scripture you gave as to what Christ said about this - "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you"?  Is there any room in there to kill somebody under any circumstances? Well what about defending yourself, is that wrong?

Mat 5:39  But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

I simply see no where in Scripture that allows for a believer to be violent. Isn't God with us (in us) at all times, so that He is fully aware of our circumstance and nothing can happen to us without His knowledge? We must trust and believe God can and will deliver us according to His will and there is no situation beyond His control.

Nahum 1:7  The LORD is good, A stronghold in the day of trouble; And He knows those who trust in Him.

2Kings 17:39  But the LORD your God you shall fear; and He will deliver you from the hand of all your enemies." 

There are some dramatic cases in Scripture where God intervened to protect His people that serve and obey Him.

Dan 3:23  And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
v. 26  Then Nebuchadnezzar went near the mouth of the burning fiery furnace and spoke, saying, "Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, servants of the Most High God, come out, and come here." Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego came from the midst of the fire.
v. 27  And the satraps, administrators, governors, and the king's counselors gathered together, and they saw these men on whose bodies the fire had no power; the hair of their head was not singed nor were their garments affected, and the smell of fire was not on them.

Dan 6:16  So the king gave the command, and they brought Daniel and cast him into the den of lions. But the king spoke, saying to Daniel, "Your God, whom you serve continually, He will deliver you."
v. 19  Then the king arose very early in the morning and went in haste to the den of lions.
v. 21  Then Daniel said to the king, "O king, live forever!
v. 22  My God sent His angel and shut the lions' mouths, so that they have not hurt me, because I was found innocent before Him; and also, O king, I have done no wrong before you."

Yes God is all powerful and He uses His great host of angelic servants that are His great warriors, and there is even a Scripture where Christ seems to say there are angels specifically used to watch over the elect.

Mat 18:10  "Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

And also this Scripture that shows there are always things going on in the heavens that we are just not aware of.

2Kings 6:15  And when the servant of the man of God arose early and went out, there was an army, surrounding the city with horses and chariots. And his servant said to him, "Alas, my master! What shall we do?"
v. 16  So he answered, "Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them."
v. 17  And Elisha prayed, and said, "LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see." Then the LORD opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

So we should never be concerned for our safety, sometimes we may even have a trial to show us our true heart/attitude, because God already knows it. But be assured our great God is very capable of protecting us.

Psa 91:1  He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
v. 2  I will say of the LORD, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."
v. 3  Surely He shall deliver you from the snare of the fowler And from the perilous pestilence.
v. 4  He shall cover you with His feathers, And under His wings you shall take refuge; His truth shall be your shield and buckler.
v. 5  You shall not be afraid of the terror by night, Nor of the arrow that flies by day,
v. 6  Nor of the pestilence that walks in darkness, Nor of the destruction that lays waste at noonday.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Here is a similar thread, of sorts, on killing, violence, defending ourselves, serving in the military etc...

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,15890.0.html

A very relavent verse:

Isaiah 51:7 "Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings." 12-13, "I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass; And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor?"

We are His people whose hearts have written upon them the law of God.

Remember, Love does no harm, so anything that does harm is  a transgression of God's spiritual law. That would include violence, killing, murder etc...

Kat's examples of God's protection of those that are His are perfect examples of how God is able to save and protect us from all harm.

Here is another very awesome testimony to God's power and deliverance:

2 Kings 19
1 And it came to pass, when king Hezekiah heard it, that he rent his clothes, and covered himself with sackcloth, and went into the house of the Lord.

2 And he sent Eliakim, which was over the household, and Shebna the scribe, and the elders of the priests, covered with sackcloth, to Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz.

3 And they said unto him, Thus saith Hezekiah, This day is a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and blasphemy; for the children are come to the birth, and there is not strength to bring forth.

4 It may be the Lord thy God will hear all the words of Rabshakeh, whom the king of Assyria his master hath sent to reproach the living God; and will reprove the words which the Lord thy God hath heard: wherefore lift up thy prayer for the remnant that are left.

5 So the servants of king Hezekiah came to Isaiah.

6 And Isaiah said unto them, Thus shall ye say to your master, Thus saith the Lord, Be not afraid of the words which thou hast heard, with which the servants of the king of Assyria have blasphemed me.

7 Behold, I will send a blast upon him, and he shall hear a rumour, and shall return to his own land; and I will cause him to fall by the sword in his own land.

8 So Rabshakeh returned, and found the king of Assyria warring against Libnah: for he had heard that he was departed from Lachish.

9 And when he heard say of Tirhakah king of Ethiopia, Behold, he is come out to fight against thee: he sent messengers again unto Hezekiah, saying,

10 Thus shall ye speak to Hezekiah king of Judah, saying, Let not thy God in whom thou trustest deceive thee, saying, Jerusalem shall not be delivered into the hand of the king of Assyria.

11 Behold, thou hast heard what the kings of Assyria have done to all lands, by destroying them utterly: and shalt thou be delivered?

12 Have the gods of the nations delivered them which my fathers have destroyed; as Gozan, and Haran, and Rezeph, and the children of Eden which were in Thelasar?

13 Where is the king of Hamath, and the king of Arpad, and the king of the city of Sepharvaim, of Hena, and Ivah?

14 And Hezekiah received the letter of the hand of the messengers, and read it: and Hezekiah went up into the house of the Lord, and spread it before the Lord.

15 And Hezekiah prayed before the Lord, and said, O Lord God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.

16 Lord, bow down thine ear, and hear: open, Lord, thine eyes, and see: and hear the words of Sennacherib, which hath sent him to reproach the living God.

17 Of a truth, Lord, the kings of Assyria have destroyed the nations and their lands,

18 And have cast their gods into the fire: for they were no gods, but the work of men's hands, wood and stone: therefore they have destroyed them.

19 Now therefore, O Lord our God, I beseech thee, save thou us out of his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the Lord God, even thou only.

20 Then Isaiah the son of Amoz sent to Hezekiah, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, That which thou hast prayed to me against Sennacherib king of Assyria I have heard.

21 This is the word that the Lord hath spoken concerning him; The virgin the daughter of Zion hath despised thee, and laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken her head at thee.

22 Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? even against the Holy One of Israel.

23 By thy messengers thou hast reproached the Lord, and hast said, With the multitude of my chariots I am come up to the height of the mountains, to the sides of Lebanon, and will cut down the tall cedar trees thereof, and the choice fir trees thereof: and I will enter into the lodgings of his borders, and into the forest of his Carmel.

24 I have digged and drunk strange waters, and with the sole of my feet have I dried up all the rivers of besieged places.

25 Hast thou not heard long ago how I have done it, and of ancient times that I have formed it? now have I brought it to pass, that thou shouldest be to lay waste fenced cities into ruinous heaps.

26 Therefore their inhabitants were of small power, they were dismayed and confounded; they were as the grass of the field, and as the green herb, as the grass on the house tops, and as corn blasted before it be grown up.

27 But I know thy abode, and thy going out, and thy coming in, and thy rage against me.

28 Because thy rage against me and thy tumult is come up into mine ears, therefore I will put my hook in thy nose, and my bridle in thy lips, and I will turn thee back by the way by which thou camest.

29 And this shall be a sign unto thee, Ye shall eat this year such things as grow of themselves, and in the second year that which springeth of the same; and in the third year sow ye, and reap, and plant vineyards, and eat the fruits thereof.

30 And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall yet again take root downward, and bear fruit upward.

31 For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the Lord of hosts shall do this.

32 Therefore thus saith the Lord concerning the king of Assyria, He shall not come into this city, nor shoot an arrow there, nor come before it with shield, nor cast a bank against it.

33 By the way that he came, by the same shall he return, and shall not come into this city, saith the Lord.

34 For I will defend this city, to save it, for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.

35 And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the Lord went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.

36 So Sennacherib king of Assyria departed, and went and returned, and dwelt at Nineveh.

37 And it came to pass, as he was worshipping in the house of Nisroch his god, that Adrammelech and Sharezer his sons smote him with the sword: and they escaped into the land of Armenia. And Esarhaddon his son reigned in his stead.

Anyway the thread I linked might have some other helpful information in regards to this discussion.

God bless,
Alex

[Nelson Boils]

I think the best example from scripture is Jesus allowing the Soldiers to kill him.He didn't retaliate,even though he knows he could've,even though he had the power to retaliate.

Mat 16:25 "For whoever wants to save his life will lose it,but whoever loses his life for me will find it."

[judy]

Self preservation was born in us, it is one of the strongest feelings we have. Is this not from God our Creator, is this carnal or what?? I'm sorry but I would defend my family with everything I had and if it was God's will I pay for this, so be it. If it is a great sin, so be it. I am not saying it is right but I would defend myself and others also.

[wat]

Jesus hid from the Jews many times.

Joh 8:56  Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."
Joh 8:57  So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
Joh 8:58  Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
Joh 8:59  So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

They must have been incredibly angry to hear a man declare himself "I am." Jesus hid himself and got away from them. Just because someone wants to kill you, doesn't mean you have to let them. It also doesn't mean you have to kill them first. Kat brings up some good scriptures and Alex brought up a good passage. God will protect His people.

As Dennis said in another thread, "Trust God but wear your seatbelt." Wearing a literal seatbelt doesn't mean you don't trust God to protect you in a car accident, it's just being smart. John mentioned in a recent thread (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,16319.msg147475.html#msg147475), Paul used his Roman citizenship to avoid a beating. He didn't just sit there and take it. He was smart and said "Is it lawful for you to flog a man who is a Roman citizen and uncondemned?" (Acts 22:25)

[Dave in Tenn]

"Though He slay me, yet will I serve Him." 

I can't put the sermon on the mount on every person in the world, in every situation.  But as God gives me grace, I want more and more to do as He said, regardless of cost.     

[Kat]

Self preservation was born in us, it is one of the strongest feelings we have. Is this not from God our Creator, is this carnal or what?? I'm sorry but I would defend my family with everything I had and if it was God's will I pay for this, so be it. If it is a great sin, so be it. I am not saying it is right but I would defend myself and others also.

Hi Judy, I know it seems irrational to stand by and not try to stop a person intent on a crime, that is certainly not the way of this world. We are a nation full of people armed and ready to protect what is theirs. Even people that are not for owning a gun would fight somebody wanting to steal their stuff or do harm to them, it just seems logical. But as Loc pointed out it is not wrong to get out of the way of danger, to hid from it, not present ourselves as a sacrifice or something. But to fight against the wickedness in this world is not a battle WE need to or should engage in. God has this age just as He wants it and for those few He is calling out of it He does not want us to fight against what He has determined to be.

When Jesus gave the sermon of the mount He continued on to give many examples of the ways this world/age and how He is teaching His disciples/believers/elect to be different, to separate from the ways of the world.

Mat 5:43  "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'

This is the way of the world, "hate your enemy" stop them and beat them down and be superior over them. Now look at what Jesus says is how we should be.

Mat 5:44  But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
v. 45  that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

This age is already determination what it will be, "He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good," we should not fight against what God has already ordained... and why would we? So we can keep all our stuff, the physical things we have accumulated... isn't everything we have a blessing FROM God?

But our natural desire to survive, and that is given to us very strongly, it is in opposition to just standing back and letting things happen, not to fight somebody. No our human nature is to beat them and give them exactly what they are giving us. Again that is the way of this world, to resist, to struggle, to fight evil as if we can change what is to be.

Mat 5:38  "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
v. 39  But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Well then certainly we should fight attackers to save our lives or those of our loved ones?

Mat 6:26  Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
v. 27  And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?

Job 14:5  The length of our lives is decided beforehand--- the number of months we will live. You have settled it, and it can't be changed. (GNB)

If we truly believe that God is sovereign then we would know and would not resist how things are, but accept whatever God has planned for us and our loved ones and not try to fight against what is predetermined, like we can determine anything anyway. Certainly we are given minds to reason when to leave or get out of the way of danger if we can. We are not to be like this world, we are peculiar which means - 1: belonging exclusively to one person or group 2: characteristic, distinctive.

2Cor 6:17  Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,
v. 18  and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty."

Titus 2:11  For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.
v. 12  It trains us to renounce ungodly living and worldly passions so that we might live sensible, honest, and godly lives in the present age
v. 13  as we wait for the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus the Messiah.
v. 14  He gave Himself for us to set us free from every wrong and to cleanse us so that we could be His special (peculiar) people who are enthusiastic about doing good deeds. (ISV)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lareli]

Nelson (or anyone) can you post the link to where Ray said what is quoted in the original post? The quote about the gun /Rottweiler..

[lareli]

As Dennis said in another thread, "Trust God but wear your seatbelt." Wearing a literal seatbelt doesn't mean you don't trust God to protect you in a car accident, it's just being smart. John mentioned in a recent thread (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,16319.msg147475.html#msg147475), Paul used his Roman citizenship to avoid a beating. He didn't just sit there and take it. He was smart and said "Is it lawful for you to flog a man who is a Roman citizen and uncondemned?" (Acts 22:25)

Paul claimed his roman citizenship to avoid physical pain. The bible tells us that this happened but it doesn't tell us whether or not it was right or wrong in Gods eyes for Paul to do this.

We read of Moses that he elected to suffer alongside the people of God rather than to enjoy the benefits of his royal citizenship. We are told that Gods people are citizens of the coming kingdom and not this kingdom. Christ said His kingdom was not of this world. We read that those who belong to God are wanderers and strangers, aliens to this world. Ray himself said that if we think we are ambassadors of Christ then we shouldn't even vote. Ambassadors do not vote in a host nation.

I don't think that Paul was giving us an example to follow when he claimed worldly citizenship to avoid a beating. I see it as possibly being a moment of weakness. Maybe not.

[Dave in Tenn]

What happened to him after he claimed his citizenship?

Act 26:32  Then said Agrippa unto Festus, This man might have been set at liberty, if he had not appealed unto Caesar.

A moment of weakness?  No.  A moment of brilliance.

[lareli]

Ah yes Dave... He appealed to Cesar which led him on a long journey and God used it all.. Scratch that.. God CAUSED it all for His own purposes and His own glory..

But God also caused/used Joseph's brothers to sell Joseph into slavery which God used for good.. We wouldn't say that was a moment of brilliance on the part of Joseph's brothers even though it turned out to benefit them later in life..

Perhaps Paul was trying to earn a ticket to see Cesar? If so then yes. I'd say brilliant in deed. Can we tell from scripture whether or not Paul was trying to avoid a beating vs securing a trip to see Cesar?

[judy]

kat, my instincts were honed from childhood, still a problem with me. The flight or fight response , well, usually until lately the fight response would win. At this time my mouth is gaining control but if there is danger my whole body goes on alert and it is strong. I know i couldn't stand by so I will pray that the rest of my life God will not allow any situation where i would have to fight be eliminated. God knows me through and through so I will trust Him for this. Defense mechanisms are hard to break. Thanks everybody, will do my best with this new thought. Not promising anything though. judy

[Dave in Tenn]

God INTENDED the evil that Joseph's brothers did for good.  It was 'good' for Joseph first, and because of that it was 'good' for the brothers.  That's the Gospel of the Kingdom, in shadow.

No, I don't think you can say that it was a moment of brilliance in the minds of the brothers.  But it was a moment of brilliance in the Mind of God to purpose this and to have it recorded in Scripture.  Paul had the mind of Christ...the brothers were wicked and ignorant.  You could also say Joseph gained Wisdom.  Jesus is Lord, however.  Whether we are dialed into wisdom or washed along by our own carnality, it is within the plan and purpose of God for Good.

[octoberose]

 Romans 13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience."

The above is written about Rome. Rome!  What governing authority in the history of the world did not defend it's people?  What governing authority does not have consequences for doing harm? None. Read verse 4, "But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason... they are agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. "   
 I have a house alarm but do not expect it to protect me if God wills ill. But I am also aware that I do not leave an open house as a temptation for someone to do wrong. I lock my car door and probably most of you do to. Why tempt someone in their moment of weakness?
 Years ago we were in West Berlin and I lost my purse. Which of course means I lost my ID card and I was in the middle of communist Germany. My husband was so upset and so worried that he wouldn't be able to get me home anytime soon. Of course I was upset but I kept praying for the poor soul that stole my purse and wondered what his life must be like. Our hotel key was also in the purse which gave us some fear that someone would break in the room. You know what happened? It really was amazing. That guy brought my purse to the hotel because the name was written on the key. He said he found it, but I have always believed he saw our reaction and saw our young children and God caused him to repent from taking it.
 So, lock your door, watch your kids and your belongings, and have mercy on everyone around you. I believe that is what is expected of us. 

[Jeff]

Kat,

I think the way you presented Scripture was inspired.

It's our nature to protect, but our nature is also carnality.  Within my nature is the perceived ability to protect my daughter from harm.  Isn't that the essence of carnality?  That "we" can do "something"?

It's God who wills and does good.  Are "we" more capable than God?

There are two parts to me, which is an obvious thing to say, but maybe something i don't consider often enough.  My carnality, which desires to be a man, and my spirituality that desires to be Godly.

What is my responsibility regarding the lives of my family, and what is my responsibility to God?  God is sovereign. He doesn't need me to stand in His place.

It's true that there is no possibility, apart from God's intervention, that I wouldn't protect my daughter and granddaughter from harm, but that is likely, me telling God that I can do it better.

The way you expressed this, is in its essence Godly, and righteous.  When you break everything down, the Truth is that God is in control of everything, and unless God wills it there is nothing I can do that would improve something unless that's His plan.

Our carnality leads us away from God.  Our obedience and faith brings us closer to Him.  I think that's the answer to this dilemma.

What you expressed is obedience and it was inspiring.

God bless,
Jeff

[arion]

Within my nature is the perceived ability to protect my daughter from harm.  Isn't that the essence of carnality?  That "we" can do "something"?

It's God who wills and does good.  Are "we" more capable than God?

Here is where I think we can go off on a tangent.  We tend to see some things as black and white only.  Are there not shades of gray as well?  If as a earthly Father you labor to provide and protect your wife and children does that mean your not trusting in God's provision?  If you go out and work your job to provide for your family does that mean that your not trusting in God's provision?  Or, conversely does God rather expect you to be active and do what you can do?  Tis true that we can do nothing in and of ourselves but do we sit back and fold our arms waiting for manna out of heaven or do we get busy doing what we can do with what God has given us and then let the results be up to him.


1Ti 5:8  But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

2Th 3:10  For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.


We can take it a little bit further.  Do we have insurance on our homes and vehicles?  Do we have health insurance?  Do we have a savings account in a bank, a pension or a 401-K account?  Most of the members here including myself are people of very modest means but we also have a few who are rather wealthy as far as material goods go.  If you have a lot of investments and a stock portfolio does that mean you are not trusting in God's provision or rather are you trying to be a good steward with what God has given you?  If you or your family are sick and go to a doctor does that mean that you have no faith and are acting out of carnality instead of trusting God for healing?  Or can God choose to heal by intervention of a human doctor as well as by a direct answer to prayer?  Do we not pray for healing and go to the doctor and let God bring the healing in the way that he chooses to?

Well then what about protecting your daughter then or another mans daughter?  If God puts you in the position by his sovereign foreknowledge to intervene against a tragedy does that mean your not trusting in God's provision or did he put you there in order to use you as an instrument?  That God may indeed directly intervene and use his angelic host I do not doubt but if God has me in a position to protect the weak and innocent then I'll do what I can at the time.  As a dad if another man was to rise up to protect your daughter on the street from harm would you be upset at him because he interfered with God's provision or rather would you not be profoundly grateful to God for putting someone there to watch out for your daughter?

What I think it boils down to like in most things is a heart issue.  For those that have the insurance on their homes and possessions along with investments their hearts can be totally wrong and what they are doing is motivated by fear of poverty and lack of trust in the provision of God.  Likewise we can run to a doctor out of fear at every sniffle and were really not trusting in God to keep us healthy or we can totally be trusting in God's provision to provide for us materially and physically and go to the doctor occasionally as it's a prudent thing to do.  It doesn't have to be one or the other.  I might take some sort of action or do something that at the heart of it is totally out of fear and not in trusting God and you might be able to do the same thing in complete faith and be totally trusting in God.  For myself I do what I can do with what God have given into my hand in all areas of my life but at the same time I know the results are totally up to God.  As the wag once said God may indeed give you the ingredients but he still expects you to cook your own dinner.

[Kat]

Arion, I understand what you are saying... no we cannot sit back and wait for God, I've always said we have to strive to do the best we can. When I say God is sovereign and has predetermined all things, I do realize we don't know what the future is, so that we should be active in surviving and not waiting on God.

God has brought about things in a way that human can survive with what He has placed in this world, people have learned how to use all these things to meet our needs, but it takes a lot of work on our part. God has also given us minds that can learn and discover incredible things for the good of mankind. We just have to do the best we can in whatever situation we are in.

We have been given the ability to think, learn, reason and figure things out, and we have great love for and desire to care for our families and we are accountable for providing their needs too. Yes it is wise to have insurance for the emergency that might and probably will arise, certainly we use doctors when there is a need. And yes we certainly protect the loved ones from any harm, it would be ridiculous to think a normal person would sit back and let harm come to a child.

If I saw somebody drowning, I would not think that God should save them, certainly I should do whatever I could to help them. If our child was wandering towards a busy street of course we would stop them. We do whatever we can to give our families a safe environment and watch over them, yes indeed. And we should also help a stranger in need or in peril as well. I guess it comes down to, if you find yourself being shot at, would you take up a gun and kill them first or pray for God protection? What would you have more faith in? All of these are just hypercritical situations and we don't really know how we might respond, but usually we have thought of these type things and plan in our minds what we would want to do.

I now have 3 young grand children and I would never stand by and let harm come to them, I would put myself between them and any danger. But should I take up a gun and kill somebody that threatened them? I certainly think not, I really think I would die for them, but not kill for them. The Scripture that have been posted are explicit that we should not act in a way to bring harm to others. Yes the world has different ideas about these things, but that is not what I consider, it is the Scripture where we should get our guidance.

Matt 10:16  Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Php 2:15  That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lareli]

God INTENDED the evil that Joseph's brothers did for good.  It was 'good' for Joseph first, and because of that it was 'good' for the brothers.  That's the Gospel of the Kingdom, in shadow.

No, I don't think you can say that it was a moment of brilliance in the minds of the brothers.  But it was a moment of brilliance in the Mind of God to purpose this and to have it recorded in Scripture.  Paul had the mind of Christ...the brothers were wicked and ignorant.  You could also say Joseph gained Wisdom.  Jesus is Lord, however.  Whether we are dialed into wisdom or washed along by our own carnality, it is within the plan and purpose of God for Good.

Indeed.