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Author Topic: Anarchy  (Read 2678 times)

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lareli

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Anarchy
« on: November 30, 2015, 05:57:46 PM »

So, in reading and contemplating I've come to realize that God established the nation of Israel as a functioning anarchy.

Anarchy doesn't mean 'no rules/laws' but it means 'no rulers' and we read several times throughout the book of judges that 'in those days Israel had no king and everyone did what they thought was right.. ' or something close to that.

The first official king of Israel was Saul and he was only king because the people demanded of the prophet Samuel that he ask God to give them a king to rule over them just like all the other nations. God told Samuel that the people were rejecting God as their king by asking for a man/king to rule over them.

Non the less God agrees but warns the people that they are selling the freedom that they had with God as their king and now instead they will be ruled by man who will take, take, take. He will take of their crops, labor, and he will even take their children to serve him.

Saul wasn't actually the first king though. The first king was, I believe, the son or grandson of Gideon. God raised up Gideon to deliver Israel from her oppressors as He did often with other judges but after Gideon success the people tried to make Gideon their king but he refused. Gideon's son (or grandson) however would later claim kingship for himself for a short time before being put down... Then later, Saul.

When they asked Samuel to inquire of The Lord to give them a king to rule over them, scripture says this was an evil thing for them to do.

I wonder if the same can be said of voting for president (ruler) today. Propaganda would have us believe that our elected officials are not rulers but representatives of the little people... But that's just propaganda. Romans identifies those who have authority over us as rulers. They're rulers and still today we vote for, desire, ask for rulers to rule over us.

Scripture tells us that Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Isn't it also true that human nature is also the same yesterday as it is today? As Solomon said, there's nothing new under the sun... God gave ancient Israel pure truth and they turned it into religion and corrupted it. Likewise Christ gave man pure truth and again man has turned it into religion and corrupted it. Likewise, the desire for a man (in our own image) to rule over us or lead us has been evident from the Old Testament until now..

Even before the people told Samuel to go get them a king, the people tried to make Gideon king... Way before that the people told Moses that they'd be better off back in Egypt. At least in Egypt they're wasn't the fear of the unknown...

Anyway just some thoughts. There has to be something we can learn about Gods heart and character in observing that the tribes of Israel were brought into the promised land and functioned as an anarchy and God said it was evil for them to ask for a king.

From the Greek,

an- (without) arkhos (chief/ruler)





« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 06:22:46 PM by largeli »
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Rolihlahla

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Re: Anarchy
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2015, 01:04:51 AM »

I've always wondered about "there is nothing new under the sun," what does that mean?

When a computer was created,wasn't it new?Cars?Or all sorts of technology?

Great post!!
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Kat

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Re: Anarchy
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2015, 11:36:49 AM »

So, in reading and contemplating I've come to realize that God established the nation of Israel as a functioning anarchy.

Anarchy doesn't mean 'no rules/laws' but it means 'no rulers' and we read several times throughout the book of judges that 'in those days Israel had no king and everyone did what they thought was right.. ' or something close to that.

Hi largeli, actually when the Israelites emerged from Egyptian captivity as a nation and a monarchy, God governed all matters by His representative/servant - Moses and then Joshua. Moses brought to them the original law on Mount Sinia - the 10 comandments, and they had many statues and laws which all the people agreed to obey.

Exo 19:7  So Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before them all these words which the LORD commanded him.
v. 8  Then all the people answered together and said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do." So Moses brought back the words of the people to the LORD.

Also there were elders in all the individual tribes that maintained order.

Exo 18:21  Moreover you shall select from all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them to be rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens.

There were also the priests that served the people.

Exo 28:1  "Now take Aaron your brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister to Me as priest, Aaron and Aaron's sons: Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.

So I would not think of it as being anarchy... maybe when it says "everyone did what was right in his own eyes" was the time after Joshua when they did not have constant leadership and then some did fall into idolatry from time to time. That was the time period when judges did rise up at times to lead to people. Then when Samuel came along was the transitional period, as he actually was the last judge, because Saul became the monarch/king and Samuel a prophet to him. But for the most part they did have some system in place that gave them leadership.

I've always wondered about "there is nothing new under the sun," what does that mean?

When a computer was created,wasn't it new?Cars?Or all sorts of technology?

To me this is speaking about the condition of mankind. Through all the centuries and all the various advances of the times there was always greed, crime, corruption and wickedness. The carnal human nature has always been at work no matter what good advances or even technology has brought about. It has been a vicious cycle from generation to generation and Solomon realized this, that this age is doomed by the corruptness of the carnal nature and he saw it all as "vanity."

Ecc 1:2  "Vanity (G1892 - emptiness or vanity; figuratively something transitory and unsatisfactory) of vanities," says the Preacher; "Vanity of vanities, all is vanity."

But we know that there is great wisdom in what God is doing and though Solomon started out his Ecclesiastes in a rather gloomy and depressing look at the way of this world, but at the end he summed it all up very well.

Ecc 12:13  Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man's all.
v. 14  For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 12:56:13 PM by Kat »
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Extol

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Re: Anarchy
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2015, 12:55:34 PM »

largeli,

I don't see the refrain "Israel had no king; everyone did as they saw fit" as a statement that God meant Israel to have no rulers. I see it as a condemnation of their behavior.

Judges 17:5-6 (NIV): "Now this man Micah had a shrine, and he made an ephod and some household gods and installed one of his sons as his priest. 6 In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as they saw fit."


Judges 19:
In those days Israel had no king.

Now a Levite who lived in a remote area in the hill country of Ephraim took a concubine from Bethlehem in Judah. 2 But she was unfaithful to him. She left him and went back to her parents’ home in Bethlehem, Judah. After she had been there four months, 3 her husband went to her to persuade her to return. He had with him his servant and two donkeys. She took him into her parents’ home, and when her father saw him, he gladly welcomed him. 4 His father-in-law, the woman’s father, prevailed on him to stay; so he remained with him three days, eating and drinking, and sleeping there.

5 On the fourth day they got up early and he prepared to leave, but the woman’s father said to his son-in-law, “Refresh yourself with something to eat; then you can go.” 6 So the two of them sat down to eat and drink together. Afterward the woman’s father said, “Please stay tonight and enjoy yourself.” 7 And when the man got up to go, his father-in-law persuaded him, so he stayed there that night. 8 On the morning of the fifth day, when he rose to go, the woman’s father said, “Refresh yourself. Wait till afternoon!” So the two of them ate together.

9 Then when the man, with his concubine and his servant, got up to leave, his father-in-law, the woman’s father, said, “Now look, it’s almost evening. Spend the night here; the day is nearly over. Stay and enjoy yourself. Early tomorrow morning you can get up and be on your way home.” 10 But, unwilling to stay another night, the man left and went toward Jebus (that is, Jerusalem), with his two saddled donkeys and his concubine.

11 When they were near Jebus and the day was almost gone, the servant said to his master, “Come, let’s stop at this city of the Jebusites and spend the night.”

12 His master replied, “No. We won’t go into any city whose people are not Israelites. We will go on to Gibeah.” 13 He added, “Come, let’s try to reach Gibeah or Ramah and spend the night in one of those places.” 14 So they went on, and the sun set as they neared Gibeah in Benjamin. 15 There they stopped to spend the night. They went and sat in the city square, but no one took them in for the night.

16 That evening an old man from the hill country of Ephraim, who was living in Gibeah (the inhabitants of the place were Benjamites), came in from his work in the fields. 17 When he looked and saw the traveler in the city square, the old man asked, “Where are you going? Where did you come from?”

18 He answered, “We are on our way from Bethlehem in Judah to a remote area in the hill country of Ephraim where I live. I have been to Bethlehem in Judah and now I am going to the house of the Lord.[a] No one has taken me in for the night. 19 We have both straw and fodder for our donkeys and bread and wine for ourselves your servants—me, the woman and the young man with us. We don’t need anything.”

20 “You are welcome at my house,” the old man said. “Let me supply whatever you need. Only don’t spend the night in the square.” 21 So he took him into his house and fed his donkeys. After they had washed their feet, they had something to eat and drink.

22 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, “Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him.

23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, “No, my friends, don’t be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don’t do this outrageous thing. 24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But as for this man, don’t do such an outrageous thing.”

25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. 26 At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight.

27 When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. 28 He said to her, “Get up; let’s go.” But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.

29 When he reached home, he took a knife and cut up his concubine, limb by limb, into twelve parts and sent them into all the areas of Israel. 30 Everyone who saw it was saying to one another, “Such a thing has never been seen or done, not since the day the Israelites came up out of Egypt. Just imagine! We must do something! So speak up!”


At the end of this story (which includes much destruction and bloodshed in chapter 20), we hear again: In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as they saw fit. In fact, it's the last verse of the book (21:25).

Judges (which incidentally used to be my favorite book of the Bible) is filled with gruesome violence, lying, cheating, idolatry and other kinds of immorality. That is what happens when we try to do what is right in our own eyes. When we have no king [Jesus], the man of lawlessness reigns. Until the King comes and destroys that man (2 Thess. 2:8), he will do what is right in his own eyes--with disastrous results.
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lareli

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Re: Anarchy
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2015, 06:03:54 PM »

Good observations Kat and Extol... I don't know if I have a point. It's just fascinating to me.

There's truly nothing new under the sun. People are still people and have always craved the safety and security of bondage over a wild and dangerous freedom. It's in our DNA.

Gods warning to the people of what a King would do is found in 1 Sam 8:10-18. He warns them that a king will basically take whatever he wants from whomever he wants. God concludes the warning by saying that  "and you yourselves will become his servants. Then you will cry out in that day because of your king you have chosen for yourselves but The Lord will not answer.." The people responded saying they didn't care... They wanted a king to go out and "fight our battles".

Nothing new under the sun. Human nature. We don't want to fight our own battles. We want the security of servitude under a ruler in our image. Rather than the freedom of being led and ruled by the spirit of The Lord whom we cannot see.. It's a carnal desire we have to be ruled by man. I'm reminded of the verse in 1 John that says "you have no need that anyone should teach you" and the one that talks about how no one knows the thoughts of a man except for that mans own mind, but we actually have the mind of Christ... In these verses I find freedom from the carnal religion that wants to tell me how I'm supposed to believe in and have a relationship with the one who created me and gave me life. Sort of a spiritual anarchy if you will in the sense that I'm free from man trying to govern my spirit. My flesh and physical body is already dying so this carnal world can govern my flesh however it wants and I'll do my best to submit as is pleasing to God. But spiritually I think there's much to be gained in observing that the desire for a king was displeasing to God.

Also much can be learned in Gideons words when Israel wanted him to rule over them... "I will not rule over you, nor shall my son rule over you; The Lord shall rule over you." It's scary to our flesh to be led and ruled by God whom we can't physically see or audibly hear. It can feel like we're leading ourselves.. But if we're becoming one with God and we have the mind of Christ then isn't it supposed to feel like we are leading ourselves? I mean, as the old man gets pushed more and more into the background of ourselves and the new man is growing into Christ's image?

Nothing new under the sun.

Another observation I found interesting was that throughout the book of Acts we read that when Paul would leave a city/church he would often appoint elders. He never appointed a single person such as a senior pastor or priest to be the head honcho of a church. I find Paul appointing elders similar to God using judges to govern Israel instead of a single person such as a king.



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Kat

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Re: Anarchy
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2015, 08:17:38 PM »

Also much can be learned in Gideons words when Israel wanted him to rule over them... "I will not rule over you, nor shall my son rule over you; The Lord shall rule over you." It's scary to our flesh to be led and ruled by God whom we can't physically see or audibly hear. It can feel like we're leading ourselves.. But if we're becoming one with God and we have the mind of Christ then isn't it supposed to feel like we are leading ourselves? I mean, as the old man gets pushed more and more into the background of ourselves and the new man is growing into Christ's image?

But the Son came into the world and He was seen and heard and He left that record in Scripture for us. The Scripture can come alive if you see/feel the Spirit in them. The words of Scripture are just like Christ speaking to me and we can 'know' Christ, if we can believe what it says.

1Co 2:14  and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them, because spiritually they are discerned;
v. 15  and he who is spiritual, doth discern indeed all things, and he himself is by no one discerned;
v. 16  for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we--we have the mind of Christ. (Young's)

To me this is the opposite of "leading ourselves," I have no, absolutely zero trust in myself, it is the Spirit that leads us, there is a difference and you can sense it.  It is kind of a strange feeling to know Christ is in control of you, but a wonderful freeing feeling as well.

Matt 11:27  All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
v. 28  Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
v. 29  Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
v. 30  For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Matt 6:31  "Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'
v. 32  For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
v. 33  But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.
v. 34  Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Wittenberg

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Re: Anarchy
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2015, 08:59:07 PM »

Maybe it's a type and shadow of the age to come.
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lareli

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Re: Anarchy
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2015, 01:34:37 PM »

Yes Kat I agree. God produces any good that we do, just saying that it 'feels' like I'm doing it.  Physically. If I do something righteous or if I judge something correctly I can stop and intellectually identify that it's God and not me doing it but more times then not I simply just do it without thought of whether or not it was of God.

Anarchy in that I don't need anyone's approval in regards to my walk with Christ. It's like Paul said in his letter to one of the church's... "I care very little to be judged by you.. Or any man. I don't even judge myself! My conscience is clean. If I'm wrong, God will judge." Paraphrased.

Our carnal nature that is dying, worships physical/carnal authority. We are taught to do so from birth. We rely on someone more physically capable from day one. Our very survival depends on those who can feed and protect us while we are babies.

Nothing new under the sun. It has always been this way. We grow into adults and the instinct we have to be 'under' the authority and protection of a more capable human is still there. God established Israel under His protection and authority. They/we sought out the authority/rule/protection of man. It's our instinct to do so from birth through every generation. It's in our DNA.

I say anarchy because God established them under His rule and authority and protection. Not under a man. Sure Moses appointed 'rulers' but they were only there as judges to judge between those who came to them with grievances or questions regarding Gods rule or law. I see a similarity in Paul and the apostles. They had no 'pope' or head person they would report to. Christ is the head we are the body. Likewise Paul appointed elders and not a head person in the church's.

The way church's are structured today are mirror images of mans governments. With a head person at the top, a few people under that head person, more 'leaders' under them, so on and so forth down to the common church goers who hold the whole structure up with their tithe dollars. Just like a mini government of man. Church's have conformed to the pattern of this world in this regard. This pattern of one man in charge breeds corruption and oppression as God warned Israel that they would cry out to Him and they would become servants to that man whom they desire to rule them.

« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 01:51:33 PM by largeli »
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lareli

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Re: Anarchy
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2015, 01:50:09 PM »

Just another thought about Paul and the apostles, remember Paul reprimanded the church when he heard that folks were saying "I was baptized by Paul!" Another "I was baptized by so and so" and on and on and Paul tells them that it's Christ who is the head. It's Christ who they should look to. But again in this example we see the carnal desire to be under a man..
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Kat

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Re: Anarchy
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2015, 02:37:31 PM »

Yes Kat I agree. God produces any good that we do, just saying that it 'feels' like I'm doing it.  Physically. If I do something righteous or if I judge something correctly I can stop and intellectually identify that it's God and not me doing it but more times then not I simply just do it without thought of whether or not it was of God.

You are right about that, and that's why everybody think they have free will, the world does not 'sense' Satan's influence and I/we don't usually 'sense' the Spirit's guidance. It seems that you can mostly tell when you look back and think about a situation and realize it was all of God. But I do find that more and more I'm actually looking/asking for God to help me out.

And that's an interesting thought that we are raised up depending on others, we learn to trust people... I think that's why it is so hard to trust and have faith in God that is not visible to us. But like you were saying, though Paul was a great teacher he was always pointing to Christ, and giving God all the credit.

1Cor 1:12  Now this I mean, that each one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos: and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
v. 13  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized into the name of Paul?

1Cor 1:17  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not in wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made void.
v. 18  For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Anarchy
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2015, 02:53:52 PM »

Just as a side note:  When "God produces any good that we do, just saying that it 'feels' like I'm doing it.  Physically. If I do something righteous or if I judge something correctly I can stop and intellectually identify that it's God and not me doing it but more times then not I simply just do it without thought of whether or not it was of God." doesn't always--seldom actually, works like that for me.

When I manage to do something good or make a good judgement on something, it 'feels' like God did it.  I have no issues intellectually back-tracking to make sure I know Who the source is so I can be all humble-and-stuff.  In fact, I don't always even know it IS good until it's done and the results become evidence.   
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Extol

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Re: Anarchy
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2015, 03:37:46 PM »


You are right about that, and that's why everybody think they have free will, the world does not 'sense' Satan's influence and I/we don't usually 'sense' the Spirit's guidance. It seems that you can mostly tell when you look back and think about a situation and realize it was all of God. But I do find that more and more I'm actually looking/asking for God to help me out.

These are wise words, Kat. I was raised in charismatic/Pentecostal churches, where it was common for leaders (and people in the congregation) to say things like "I felt the Lord telling me to _____ " or "The Spirit led me to do _____ ". In my earlier years I thought they were just more spiritual than I (since it didn't happen to me), but later on I began to wonder how much of this was authentic. Incidentally, the "Spirit" was usually leading them to do things they wanted (e.g., "The Lord said to me, 'Jerry, you gotta marry that girl. She's one-of-a-kind!'")
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Jeff

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Re: Anarchy
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2015, 12:40:15 AM »

Just as a side note:  When "God produces any good that we do, just saying that it 'feels' like I'm doing it.  Physically. If I do something righteous or if I judge something correctly I can stop and intellectually identify that it's God and not me doing it but more times then not I simply just do it without thought of whether or not it was of God." doesn't always--seldom actually, works like that for me.

When I manage to do something good or make a good judgement on something, it 'feels' like God did it.  I have no issues intellectually back-tracking to make sure I know Who the source is so I can be all humble-and-stuff.  In fact, I don't always even know it IS good until it's done and the results become evidence.   

Simply awesome.  I don't mean that facetiously - that is entirely, one of the most humble things I've read in this forum.  Not that everyone here isn't humble, I'm just saying that the way you expressed that, is Godly.

Thank you Dave.
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lareli

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Re: Anarchy
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2015, 01:17:33 PM »


You are right about that, and that's why everybody think they have free will, the world does not 'sense' Satan's influence and I/we don't usually 'sense' the Spirit's guidance. It seems that you can mostly tell when you look back and think about a situation and realize it was all of God. But I do find that more and more I'm actually looking/asking for God to help me out.

These are wise words, Kat. I was raised in charismatic/Pentecostal churches, where it was common for leaders (and people in the congregation) to say things like "I felt the Lord telling me to _____ " or "The Spirit led me to do _____ ". In my earlier years I thought they were just more spiritual than I (since it didn't happen to me), but later on I began to wonder how much of this was authentic. Incidentally, the "Spirit" was usually leading them to do things they wanted (e.g., "The Lord said to me, 'Jerry, you gotta marry that girl. She's one-of-a-kind!'")


The one that most irritated me was ... "The Lord put this on my heart for you.." In my head I would ask... Why wouldn't The Lord just put it on my heart instead of going through you?

This is partly why I identify with the word or idea of 'anarchy'. I understand that God can use any situation, circumstance or person to teach me something but I won't allow a man to have the place of authority over me that belongs to Christ. I know that there are other 'body parts' and that none are superior to any other.. But I won't allow a man to take that place of the 'Head' of the body to which I belong. Christ is the head.

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Wittenberg

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Re: Anarchy
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2015, 08:50:44 PM »

Once Jesus puts all enemies under His feet, it will be like an anarchy, in the sense there will be no need for "rulers". All of creation will be in agreement. We will all have His heart and will do nothing outside of God's (not sure the word, plan or will) The law will be written on every bodies heart, all actions will be the same as our heavenly fathers. Hence why after the final resurrection and death being thrown in the lake of fire, all authority goes back to our heavenly Father.
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indianabob

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Re: Anarchy
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2015, 02:48:43 PM »

Great point, Mr. Wittenberg, thanks for sharing.

By the way, your family name sounds familiar.
Should I know its history?

Indiana Bob Breyfogle (breivogel)
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Wittenberg

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Re: Anarchy
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2015, 04:10:01 PM »

Wittenberg is the name of the town and church that Martin Luther nailed his 95 thesis to. I doubt my family recieved it's name from this though, I come from a long line of drunks and disappointments. ;D
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Jeff

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Re: Anarchy
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2015, 09:30:44 PM »

Wittenberg is the name of the town and church that Martin Luther nailed his 95 thesis to. I doubt my family recieved it's name from this though, I come from a long line of drunks and disappointments. ;D

We must be related.  That's what my family says about me. ;)
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