As Arrhenius put it in the second century, "The Son is the visible of the Father while the Father is the invisible of the Son." In Jesus is the fullness of the deity is dwelling BODILY (Colosians 2:9). The Father is God as God which man cannot currently observe in his present condition (1 Tim. 6:16). Think of when Moses told Jehovah "show me your glory" and He responded, "no man is able to see my face and live."
To my understanding, when you see Jesus you absolutely see everything that is God and that which has been termed The Father" as man. As ray said, Jesus is the autobiography of God.
God bless,
Alex
The problem I have with the some of what you were saying that it leaves a lot of Scriptures out of it. As with the comment I put in bold, from Arrhenius from the second century, "the Father is the invisible of the Son," there is no Scripture that shows that and there a time that indicate otherwise. So to say that The Father and Son are one and the same or that the Son is 'everything' that the Father is does present problems... Christ had a beginning (Rev 3:14), and Rom 1:20 indicate that the Father does not. Jesus spoke many times of being "with" the Father and somebody cannot actually be the same person they are with. Also Jesus stated the Father is greater than Himself.
John 14:28 “You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.
There are many Scripture that call Christ "almighty" in the OT and the NT, however that does not make Him the Father.
Gen 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless.
Joel 1:15 Alas for the day!
For the day of the LORD is at hand;
2Cor 6:18 “I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the LORD Almighty.”It shall come as destruction from the Almighty.
Rev 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,”fn says the Lord,fn “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
It is true that "in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily," and that was always, from when the Father brought Him forth onward, As God of the OT in His pre-flesh state and when He lived as a man on earth and now in His glorious spiritual state of being. Christ has always been all that the Father wanted there to be for this creation, He is the part of God the Father that He presents to and for this creation, but that is certainly not all there is to the Father.
To understand that Christ is only that part of the Father that was brought forth to serve this creation, shows how Christ died and was dead in the tomb, and the Father continued on. We have no idea what else there is to the Father, this creation is something that the Father determined to create and bring to perfection through the Son. There will come the time when Christ will have completed His work in this creation, when all have been made one with God, then Christ will then have revealed the Father as He is to all the creation. Then everything can move forward in that wondrous state as the Father first determined that it would become.
1Cor 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hi Kat,
I don't believe there is any scriptures being left out in this. One can argue that Rev 3:14 has several different translations some of which include Christ being the 'Chief' of God's creation or the 'Source' of it. I'm not arguing that the KJV isn't correctly translated but also offering perspective.
The word translated beginning is:
ar-khay'
From G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank): - beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.
Though in fairness to your argument one could say that Jesus saying He 'came forth out of the Father' could imply a beginning. I am not saying He doesn't have one. What I am saying is it changes not the truth of the matter that Jesus is the Image of the invisible God, the only True God.
You don't like Arrhenius exclamation but let me ask you then how you contend with Paul on such a belief:
Colossians 1:12-16
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
What about John who essentially states a very similar thing about the only begotten God unfolding God.
Joh 1:18 God no one has ever seen. The only-begotten God, Who is in the bosom of the Father, He unfolds Him."
Doesn't Jesus also tell us the same in His rebuke to philip?
John 14:6-10
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
What of the author of Hebrews who states:
Heb 1:3 Who, being an eradiated brightness of his glory, and an exact representation of his very being, also bearing up all things by the utterance of his power, purification of sins, having achieved, sat down on the right hand of the majesty in high places:
What of Isaiah?
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
And Matthew?
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is,
God with us.
Paul again
1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God (or HE WHO)
was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
I don't see any contradiction with what Arrhenius stated and the scriptures..
In all this never losing sight that there is only one singular God.
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Deuteronomy 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that Jehovah is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
As ray wrote in his paper on solving the enigma of God. Jesus is not 'another.' He bore the Father's Glory and will come in that same Glory when He returns. This is the very same God who is invisible spirit. As paul said, He who was manifested in the flesh. God incarnate in the flesh is Jesus. Isn't that what John also affirms to us?
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
God bless,
Alex
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Topic: Regarding the final judgement (Read 8190 times)