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[Kat]

The theory of free will argues that anyone possessing this God-defying power can freely choose his own course in life by making his own decisions and choices that are CAUSED by no thing or no one. Every free-willer is said to have the power to do or not do, to think or not think, anything they wish, without anything causing them to do contrariwise. So surely Jesus possessed this power as well, did He not? Not.

Who are you trying to convince there is no free will? Do you think we don't know that?

Just because people think/believe/plan the things they do, does not change that God is sovereign, and does not change the God causes the outcome every time. Nobody here is saying that anybody makes resolutions with their free will and they can make it come true... but we all do makes choices as we do have a will, it's just not free.

Do not forget there has to be the great deception and Satan is deceiving the whole world (Rev 12:9) that they should believe the lie, so most people certainly do believe they have a free will, BUT not here.

2Thess 2:9  The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
v. 10  and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
v. 11  And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
v. 12  that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
v. 13  But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
v. 14  to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[rick]

The theory of free will argues that anyone possessing this God-defying power can freely choose his own course in life by making his own decisions and choices that are CAUSED by no thing or no one. Every free-willer is said to have the power to do or not do, to think or not think, anything they wish, without anything causing them to do contrariwise. So surely Jesus possessed this power as well, did He not? Not.

Who are you trying to convince there is no free will? Do you think we don't know that?

Just because people think/believe/plan the things they do, does not change that God is sovereign, and does not change the God causes the outcome every time. Nobody here is saying that anybody makes resolutions with their free will and they can make it come true... but we all do makes choices as we do have a will, it's just not free.

Do not forget there has to be the great deception and Satan is deceiving the whole world (Rev 12:9) that they should believe the lie, so most people certainly do believe they have a free will, BUT not here.

2Thess 2:9  The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
v. 10  and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
v. 11  And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
v. 12  that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
v. 13  But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
v. 14  to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Im not trying to convince anyone of anything but was only stating why I believe resolition are a waist of time for me but thats my view it may not be the view of another and I respect that perhaps God will cause others to respect my views as well.

God bless.

[Kat]

Hi Rick, we all come here to discuss our opinions about these things... what we should respect is what we find to be sound from the Scripture.

I believe New years resolutions is not only a waist of time but its a sin too. Its true.

So a resolution is setting a goal, planning ahead and it appears you believe that is a waste of time and actually a sin, because we cannot determine what is actually going to happen? Well you're right we do not know for sure what even tomorrow holds...

James 4:14  whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away.

So there James shows what the person that really does not consider God in their thinking/planning is like. It's like the parable of the rich man in Luke 12 and God called him a fool for storing up so much wealth. But can and should a person that is striving to obey and serve God ever make plans? Well James goes on to say we should humble ourselves before God, and in planning strive to do so according to God's will.

James 4:15  Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that."

So it's about our attitude towards God, whether we are humble to understand that God rules in our lives and planning. We see that Paul thought this way when making his plans.

1Cor 16:7  For I do not wish to see you now on the way; but I hope to stay a while with you, if the Lord permits.

Acts 18:21  but took leave of them, saying, "I must by all means keep this coming feast in Jerusalem; but I will return again to you, God willing...

Heb 6:3  And this we will do if God permits.

So I don't see it as sin for the God fearing person to make resolutions or plan ahead, because we need to make plans to travel just like Paul did and a resolution is just resolving/planning to do something.  But it certainly is wise when we consider and plan to do so with God's will in mind.

Pro 21:5  The plans of the diligent lead surely to abundance, but everyone who is hasty comes only to poverty.

Luke 14:28  For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?

Pro 6:6  Go to the ant, O sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise.
v. 7  Without having any chief, officer, or ruler,
v. 8  she prepares her bread in summer and gathers her food in harvest. 

Pro 15:22  Without counsel plans fail, but with many advisers they succeed.

I hope you find this helpful, as I am just trying to understand what the Scripture say on this or any matter.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[rick]

Hi Rick, we all come here to discuss our opinions about these things... what we should respect is what we find to be sound from the Scripture.

I believe New years resolutions is not only a waist of time but its a sin too. Its true.

So a resolution is setting a goal, planning ahead and it appears you believe that is a waste of time and actually a sin, because we cannot determine what is actually going to happen? Well you're right we do not know for sure what even tomorrow holds...

James 4:14  whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away.

So there James shows what the person that really does not consider God in their thinking/planning is like. It's like the parable of the rich man in Luke 12 and God called him a fool for storing up so much wealth. But can and should a person that is striving to obey and serve God ever make plans? Well James goes on to say we should humble ourselves before God, and in planning strive to do so according to God's will.

James 4:15  Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that."

So it's about our attitude towards God, whether we are humble to understand that God rules in our lives and planning. We see that Paul thought this way when making his plans.

1Cor 16:7  For I do not wish to see you now on the way; but I hope to stay a while with you, if the Lord permits.

Acts 18:21  but took leave of them, saying, "I must by all means keep this coming feast in Jerusalem; but I will return again to you, God willing...

Heb 6:3  And this we will do if God permits.

So I don't see it as sin for the God fearing person to make resolutions or plan ahead, because we need to make plans to travel just like Paul did and a resolution is just resolving/planning to do something.  But it certainly is wise when we consider and plan to do so with God's will in mind.

Pro 21:5  The plans of the diligent lead surely to abundance, but everyone who is hasty comes only to poverty.

Luke 14:28  For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?

Pro 6:6  Go to the ant, O sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise.
v. 7  Without having any chief, officer, or ruler,
v. 8  she prepares her bread in summer and gathers her food in harvest. 

Pro 15:22  Without counsel plans fail, but with many advisers they succeed.

I hope you find this helpful, as I am just trying to understand what the Scripture say on this or any matter.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi Kat,

Yes, I find these scriptures very helpful. I understand what your meaning is now and do agree with its wisdom and soundness.

Anyone making a resolution under the examples of scripture you put forth is not a sin or a waist of time.

Thanks for your reply and God bless.

[lareli]

I don't think most of the world believes that they have free will like you guys keep claiming. We here understand that free will means an uncaused will. Ask someone if they have free will and they may say, yes. Ask them if they chose to be born and then ask them if they have an uncaused will and they will say no. I don't know anyone whose ever claimed to have chosen to be born and since everyone will acknowledge that their life was not uncaused then they know that there's no such thing as an uncaused will.

When the majority of the world refers to free will they're not talking about uncaused will they're just talking about will.. Which they do posses. Not only does everyone posses and wield they're own will, but God will hold us accountable for how we use it and how we don't use it too.

You say making a resolution is a sin... For me, personally, staying in the same wretched state because I figure "if God wanted me to stop doing such and such then He would make it so" while not using my will to strive to be a better person.. that's lazy and a cop out and a sin.

[Dave in Tenn]

Largeli, being born has nothing to do with will.  That question will get you the desired answer and not any more illumination that that. Of course most people will say they did not choose to be born. 

It's true that many people who use the term 'free-will' haven't given the term much thought...even some who REALLY believe in the Sovereignty of God.  Another term Ray used that is pretty much equivalent to 'free-will' was 'free moral agency'.  Look those up.

Which brings me to this:  The discussion seems to always center on the LACK of a "Free"-will.  As if we could prove something wondrous by talking about how Santa Clause does not exist. 

Are some MOURNING the loss of something that maybe they still kinda think they once had?  Maybe of something they wish they did have?  At least sometimes?  Maybe some are not mourning, but thankful they no longer have something they still kinda think they once had? 

Just questions. 

[rick]

I don't think most of the world believes that they have free will like you guys keep claiming. We here understand that free will means an uncaused will. Ask someone if they have free will and they may say, yes. Ask them if they chose to be born and then ask them if they have an uncaused will and they will say no. I don't know anyone whose ever claimed to have chosen to be born and since everyone will acknowledge that their life was not uncaused then they know that there's no such thing as an uncaused will.

When the majority of the world refers to free will they're not talking about uncaused will they're just talking about will.. Which they do posses. Not only does everyone posses and wield they're own will, but God will hold us accountable for how we use it and how we don't use it too.

You say making a resolution is a sin... For me, personally, staying in the same wretched state because I figure "if God wanted me to stop doing such and such then He would make it so" while not using my will to strive to be a better person.. that's lazy and a cop out and a sin.

I think most folks probably don't think much about free will either but perhaps if you ask most people can you do what ever you want, they will probably say yes as long as there financial situation allows it.

But I know the churches I use to go to told me that God sends no one to hell , we send ourselves there.

well that sounds like they are telling me I have free will because its up to me not God. Today I know better, no one comes to Christ unless god calls them to.

with all that I learned here, I sometimes forget and think I have free will because I can not detect God with my five senses so I do feel like I have free will but I understand my will is always subjected to Gods will 24/7'.

If someone were to ask me can I do what ever I want my answer would be I only have the illusion of only thinking I can but not the power or ability to do what ever I want.

God bless.

[lareli]

Largeli, being born has nothing to do with will.  That question will get you the desired answer and not any more illumination that that. Of course most people will say they did not choose to be born. 

Being born has nothing to do with will? Maybe I can see what you mean by that statement but we're not just talking about 'will' we're talking about 'uncaused will' and being born is the cause of everything about you/me... and that cause (me being born) had a cause, or many causes... And all those causes had causes... And so on and so forth all the way back to the beginning of creation.

It's all just math. God is the master mathematician. A plus B equals C. Adam and Eve created as spiritually weak humans, plus the serpent, plus the tree, plus the command, equals the fall which causes this and that which causes Cain and Abel.. On and on and on.

Even 'moral agency' our opinions and convictions about wrong and right, good and evil. Again we're not talking about just 'moral agency' but 'uncaused moral agency'. Being born is the cause which began our moral agency. Not just being born but being born male as opposed to being born female.. These two causes (being born and being born male as opposed to female) how much have these two factors have had on our moral agency (or our life perspective and experience at least) and neither of these factors did we choose or will.. nor were these factors uncaused, and I don't think anyone in the world would disagree.

I didn't choose to be born.. Not only did I not will myself to be born but I didn't will myself to be born as a male as opposed to female.. Not only did I not choose being born male but I didn't choose to be born to the biological parents that I was born to.. I did not choose for my folks to divorce when I was 3.. I didn't choose to be born at this time in history as opposed to being born 500 years ago. I didn't choose to be born in California in the US of A as opposed to being born in Egypt or China... How different my will or moral agency would be had I been born the son of a slave owner in the south as opposed to having been born as a slave. Or if Hitler was born as a Jew instead of a German...

All these things are the causes for our will or moral agency and we have no control over these things so no there is no 'uncaused will' or 'uncaused moral agency' and I must admit that I haven't taken a poll or sat down and talked with many folks about what 'free will' means to them but I highly doubt as many people as you guys (no one in particular) make it out to be would argue that they or anyone has ever possessed an 'uncaused will'...

Maybe the important thing I think is that for us we know God is the ultimate cause of all while some may not believe in a God at all.. Even so atheists wouldn't even argue in favor of an uncaused will. They would just argue that the ultimate cause isn't a God.

Around here we understand free will to mean uncaused will but out there free will usually just means will, which we do posses and we'll be held accountable... So I'd say if you've made a New Years resolution to better yourself than good for you! If I say I'm gonna try to take the stairs more often instead of the elevator, or I'm gonna try to spend less time watching tv, or I'm gonna try to better my situation or whatever.. I disagree that that's a waste of time or a sin. Perhaps the opposite is true. Shouldn't we resolve or will to be better versions of ourselves daily?

[Joel]

There are a multitude of references to vows, oaths, and pledges that are recorded in the scriptures.
I find it interesting that Wikipedia says this under new years resolutions; "The Romans began each new year by making promises to the god Janus, for whom the month of January is named."

Joel

[Kat]

Hi largeli,

To me being born is the gift of existence, so is the personality we have, these are the fundamental means, certainly not determined by us, that starts us on the course of our lives.  It's impossible for a person to have a will for anything before they exist... to live and have consciousness, who our parents will be, where you will live and in what century are all factors that are brought about for us to have life in this incredible creation. These things are beyond our control and even knowledge and our will has not even come into play at that time, that only starts after we are born.

But from the moment of our birth our will does have a factor in all decisions/choices we make. A baby is caused to cry by something, hunger or some discomfort... and all through our lives all these unseen causes create circumstances that make us choose as we do - God's sovereignty. Since we have studied this quite a bit from the articles on BT and here, it becomes hard for us to comprehend otherwise. But that is not the case with the world in general,that most of the causes are totally unrealized and because no apparent cause that can be detected, this is why I feel most people readily believe that they do have a 'free' will.

Certainly most people have not sat down and meditated on this or given it any thought at all, it's just natural to assume that we are self determined individuals and not predetermined to be what we are by God's sovereignty. That a decision you make is YOUR determination, to them God's sovereignty does not go that far, because you actually deside and that is what the whole church believe and teach. The church's whole premise is that God does not assign anybody to hell... they must by their own free will choice, choose Christ and salvation or they will by default be sent to hell.

Here is just one of the religious site's comments on their position on free will that I got from the internet, most churches believe pretty much the same thing as far as I can tell--


God's Sovereignty and Man's Free Will. I really like the truth of this Bible teaching.

The belief that God controls everything that happens to us is one of the devil's biggest inroads into our lives. If this belief is true, then our actions are irrelevant, and our efforts are meaningless. What will be will be.

If=It is assumed that since God is paramount or supreme that nothing can happen without His approval. That is not what the Scriptures teach. In 2 Peter 3:9, Peter said, "The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." This clearly states that it is not the Lord's will for anyone to perish, but people are perishing. Jesus said, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat" (Matt. 7:13). Relatively few people are saved compared to the number that are lost. God's will for people concerning salvation is not being accomplished.

This is because the Lord gave us the freedom to choose. He doesn't will anyone into hell. He paid for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2; 1 Tim. 4:10), but we must choose to put our faith in Christ and receive His salvation. People are the ones choosing hell by not choosing Jesus as their Savior. It is the free will of man that damns them, not God.

People virtually have to climb over the roadblocks that God puts in their way to continue on their course to hell. The cross of Christ and the drawing power of the Holy Spirit are obstacles that every sinner encounters. No one will ever stand before God and be able to fault Him for withholding the opportunity to be saved. The Lord woos every person to Him, but we have to cooperate. Ultimately, the Lord simply enforces the consequences of people's own choices.
-------------------------------------------------

My point is that most do believe that they have a free will, even if they have never contemplated it, because it is a natural assumption to think our own decisions are what determines our fate in life. Religious people will tell you they believe in the sovereignty of God, but turn right around and say people choose to go to hell. It's their being blind to the truth and the whole world is full of deception and confusion and that's just the way it is for now.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lareli]

  "Certainly most people have not sat down and meditated on this or given it any thought at all, it's just natural to assume that we are self determined individuals and not predetermined to be what we are by God's sovereignty. That a decision you make is YOUR determination, to them God's sovereignty does not go that far, because you actually deside and that is what the whole church believe and teach. The church's whole premise is that God does not assign anybody to hell... they must by their own free will choice, choose Christ and salvation or they will by default be sent to hell." 

Isn't a decision you make YOUR determination though? Isn't this why we will be held accountable but not responsible? Accountable for our will because it is OUR will but not responsible because we didn't choose to be created as spiritually weak 'sinning machines' in the first place..

Ray pointed out that "God doesn't force anyone to sin, we don't need anyone to force us to sin because we're sinning machines!"

God is the cause of me having been created spiritually weak so He is responsible, but He is not forcing me to sin. I willingly sin.. its MY will.

Am I understanding this right?





 

[Kat]

  "Certainly most people have not sat down and meditated on this or given it any thought at all, it's just natural to assume that we are self determined individuals and not predetermined to be what we are by God's sovereignty. That a decision you make is YOUR determination, to them God's sovereignty does not go that far, because you actually deside and that is what the whole church believe and teach. The church's whole premise is that God does not assign anybody to hell... they must by their own free will choice, choose Christ and salvation or they will by default be sent to hell." 

Isn't a decision you make YOUR determination though? Isn't this why we will be held accountable but not responsible? Accountable for our will because it is OUR will but not responsible because we didn't choose to be created as spiritually weak 'sinning machines' in the first place..

Ray pointed out that "God doesn't force anyone to sin, we don't need anyone to force us to sin because we're sinning machines!"

God is the cause of me having been created spiritually weak so He is responsible, but He is not forcing me to sin. I willingly sin.. its MY will.

Am I understanding this right?

Yes largeli, what you said is true, but we know that there are always causes. Yet these causes are virtually always unseen and unknown by us, hence the reason everybody believes they have a 'free' will. It's like I was saying they believe the cause is actually their own desire from within - self determination. Therefore they determine their own fate by the decisions that they make and it could go any number of ways according to what they decide.

I believe to them God is pretty much hands off, unless He decides to miraculously intervene, otherwise the world is going according to what man causes. They certainly do not believe that God created evil and is the ultimately cause of everything that happens, therefore responsible.

We know that we have a will and make the choices that we do, from our own desires, therefore accountable. But the difference is that we know there are always causes and the sovereign God is ultimately controlling these causes. Though our fate is determined, we willingly comply with all these circumstances that are totally out of our control. We understand that it's the will of the sovereign God that directs all these circumstances (indirectly), but the world certainly does not believe this. For them it's self-determination - free will.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

  "Certainly most people have not sat down and meditated on this or given it any thought at all, it's just natural to assume that we are self determined individuals and not predetermined to be what we are by God's sovereignty. That a decision you make is YOUR determination, to them God's sovereignty does not go that far, because you actually deside and that is what the whole church believe and teach. The church's whole premise is that God does not assign anybody to hell... they must by their own free will choice, choose Christ and salvation or they will by default be sent to hell." 

Isn't a decision you make YOUR determination though? Isn't this why we will be held accountable but not responsible? Accountable for our will because it is OUR will but not responsible because we didn't choose to be created as spiritually weak 'sinning machines' in the first place..

Ray pointed out that "God doesn't force anyone to sin, we don't need anyone to force us to sin because we're sinning machines!"

God is the cause of me having been created spiritually weak so He is responsible, but He is not forcing me to sin. I willingly sin.. its MY will.

Am I understanding this right?

I wouldn't say it as the choices we make are 'our determination.' They are choices determined by temptation and inherent weakness built into us.

He is the potter and we are the clay. You are as powerful as clay in the hand's of a potter. That's as 'determination' in the choices you make that you have. That is the example God gave.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1493.0.html -------------------------

As it is absolutely Scripturally true that man has no free will, and therefore is always subject to the higher powers that be, when people begin to see this truth, they often balk at it and feel that God is unfair and that man is being judged for things that God MADE HIM DO AGAINST HIS WILL. When in reality, NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!!
 
Most of the human race has always believed that it possesses "free will." And so as long as any man believes this falsehood, he is operating in his own little world with absolutely no grudge against God for his personal decisions.  But when he begins to see that he has no free will, he then does begin to think that he has a justifiable grudge against God for MAKING HIM SIN. He was wrong when he thought that he had free will, and he is just as wrong when he thinks that the only alternative is that God MAKES HIM SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL.
 
I have stated many times that God DOES NOT MAKE OR FORCE ANYONE TO SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL--MAN DESIRES TO SIN, WANTS TO SIN, AND THEREFORE VOLUNTEERS TO SIN.  God did not FORCE or MAKE Eve eat of the forbidden fruit. Her own DESIRES caused her to lust and eat of the forbidden fruit.

And so the real question is: "Does God have the right to make mankind subject to the desires of their own heart?"  Think about it, as I have, for a few thousand hours, and maybe God will grant to you the spiritual understanding of this matter.
 
Hundreds of totally deceived and spiritually blind Christians have told me that: "God does not want robots to love Him--He desires people to love Him by their OWN FREE WILL."  Oh really?  And can the carnal mind indeed love God by its own nature; its own heart; its own desires?  NO IT CAN'T.  And so the very thing that Christians demand as necessary for our love for God to be genuine, is the very thing that totally disqualifies it from being genuine.  The natural mind is totally incapable of  loving God: 

"For the carnal mind is enmity [deep-seated HATRED] AGAINST GOD..." (Rom. 8:7).
 
It all starts with God, not with us:  "We love Him [God] because He FIRST LOVED US"  (I John 4:19).
 
God created mankind spiritually WEAK--subject to the lusts and sins of his own heart, so that man will learn that he CANNOT love God first;  he cannot obey spiritual laws and commandments;  he cannot please God;  he cannot accomplish anything of lasting value through his wicked and deceitful heart. (Jer. 17:9).  And therefore God's ways will justify His means.  The rewards and the blessings are not even to be compared with the glory that God is creating in the human race (Rom. 8:18).
 
And so here is the answer to your question:
 
BEFORE spiritual conversion man FALSELY THINKS that he has free will and is for all intent and purpose a god unto himself.
 
AFTER spiritual conversion man will be eternally thankful that God never gave us such a foolish concept as "free will," or he would never ever reach the marvelous heights of power and glory that God has in mind for him.

God be with you,
Ray

I would add to ray's thought, "A HEART THAT GOD MADE!"

God bless,
Alex

[lareli]

"You are as powerful as clay in the hand's of a potter."


Good stuff you guys.. God Bless.

[lareli]

Thinking more on this... We do have a will. Our will isn't forced it's voluntary. No one forces us to do anything (per Ray). So if by free-will one means free from force then yes we do have free-will. Free from force. Which is what I believe that basically everyone in the entire world is referring to when they say "free-will".

I can't say that I ever believed in an un-caused will which is what Ray taught is the real definition of free-will.. Can anyone here say that they ever believed they possessed an un-caused will?
Has anyone ever heard of, or read anything written by anyone arguing that we posses an "un-caused will"?

[Extol]

I can't say that I ever believed in an un-caused will which is what Ray taught is the real definition of free-will.. Can anyone here say that they ever believed they possessed an un-caused will?
Has anyone ever heard of, or read anything written by anyone arguing that we posses an "un-caused will"?

I don't know if I've heard it in those terms ("un-caused will"), but yes, I believed that, and so do many Christians: that while there may be some small influences, those influences do not cause any of our choices; we are free in the end to rise above those influences and say NO. The influences can't cause us to choose one thing or the other; no, we are free to choose whichever way we want. When I was growing up in Church, I heard it said--I said it myself!--"If only Adam and Eve hadn't sinned!" As if all they had to do was turn away and say No! Yes, we knew the serpent tricked Eve, but what a fool she was to fall for it! She could have just shown a little fortitude and said No, and we'd be living in the Earthly Paradise to this day. Ironically, we acknowledged the evil state of the present world to be a result of Adam and Eve's sins--all of the suffering in history, traced back to two people, caused by two people--yet still thought we all had free choice!

I remember making similar comments about other Old Testament characters: What a fool! What an idiot! How can they go after idols again?

I don't remember ever using the terms free will or free choice back then. But looking back I can see I absolutely believed that we could make free uncaused choices...even though I daily acknowledged God as Master of the Universe!

I went to the website of the Assemblies of God (world's largest Pentecostal denomination), and No. 4 of their 16 Fundamental Truths is this:

WE BELIEVE...though originally good, Man Willingly Fell to Sin勃shering evil and death, both physical and spiritual, into the world.

Mark 10:18--And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

Romans 8:20--For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope

[lilitalienboi16]

Thinking more on this... We do have a will. Our will isn't forced it's voluntary. No one forces us to do anything (per Ray). So if by free-will one means free from force then yes we do have free-will. Free from force. Which is what I believe that basically everyone in the entire world is referring to when they say "free-will".

I can't say that I ever believed in an un-caused will which is what Ray taught is the real definition of free-will.. Can anyone here say that they ever believed they possessed an un-caused will?
Has anyone ever heard of, or read anything written by anyone arguing that we posses an "un-caused will"?

Largeli,

There is no such thing as uncaused ANYTHING. Neither the will or choice are free from 'force' or any other causative agent. Everything in this universe, including your will ( and the choices you make based on that will) is shaped, molded, affected, CAUSED by millions of unseen factors. Consider your genetics, your sex, your parents, your upbringing, your education, your wealth, your culture, your geographical location, your religion, satan, spiritual wickedness in high places, God's law, God's spirit, a weak heart etc.... These all FORCE or INFLUENCE or CAUSE your will.

The 'free will' is more in line with the idea of uncaused 'CHOICE' rather than the 'uncaused will' as you suggest. Regardless, both are false.

The will is the desire of the heart which then influences the choices (the expression of those desires through the mind) we make. The will itself is influenced by the many things I mentioned above.

I believe ray focused more on free choices rather than 'uncaused will'' but seeing as our choices are direct results of that will, it could be argued that he was saying that. Regardless, neither of these things are free from causative FORCES.

As ray said, it comes down to: And so the real question is: "Does God have the right to make mankind subject to the desires of their own heart?"  Think about it, as I have, for a few thousand hours, and maybe God will grant to you the spiritual understanding of this matter.

God be with you,
Alex

[Dave in Tenn]

This may sound strange, but I'll type it anyway.

It's been almost 8 years since I have given any serious thought to any alleged ability to make choices on my own without influence, cause, force or whatever. 

WHATEVER I thought I had concerning will or choice was wiped away almost 8 years ago.  It came as a stunning revelation, not from a carefully put-together "Theory of the Non-Existence of Free-will".  The experience left me just a little bit insane for a short while, and shaken to the core for quite a while longer as I 'looked back' over my life and saw the working of God in it to date, and now, since.  Since it was such a life-shattering experience, though, I must have thought SOMETHING was 'true' about 'free-will'.  Now I have mostly forgotten ever believing in it except for instances where 1.  I could not do what I wanted to do, and 2.  I could not refrain from doing what I didn't want to do.

Both of those are the most clearly 'revealed' and understood in my own case by remembering the night I stumbled onto BT with one thing in mind, but wound up having my life turned up-side down instead.  Jesus is Lord. 

[lareli]

Dave your reply reminds me of several movies where the premise is that a bunch of seemingly random situations culminate in a bigger picture or plot unbeknownst to the actors involved.. Also reminds me of an article/blog or whatever you want to call it where the writer documents all these stories of people on the morning of 9/11.. People who would've and should've been in the twin towers but seemingly random occurances kept them from going to work that morning.. "Everything happens for a reason" is something people may say at one time or another but the truth of that statement "everything happens for a reason" never fully resonates with most. Not only does "everything happen for a reason" but "none of it is up to us" is that right?

Fate, destiny.. You all here believe in that don't you? I can consider my wife and state with absolute assurance that "we were meant to be with each other". It's pretty interesting to think that God designed my wife and I specifically to be with each other and to be used by Him to mold and shape each other and our kids too.

Every bad and hard thing any of us has experienced was tailor made specifically to mold/shape us as God wants us to be, correct? If this is so, than we should be able to look back at not just the good things in our past but also the hard and terrible things we've all individually experienced and we should be able to praise God for those hard things, right? Seeing as how there is no wasted motion in Gods plan. Not one atom moves independently apart from Gods will and plan. Everything we will suffer, we know, is absolutely necessary for Gods plan and therefore we should rejoice in all circumstances right?

Easier said or even understood than actually done though.. If I get a flat tire on the way home or if I get a phone call telling me someone close to me is sick or hurt, the carnal in me may arise and lash out with emotion. Perhaps that's what Paul was talking about when he said "the thing I know I should do, I do not do, and the thing I don't want to do, I actually do !"

[lareli]

Forgiveness is much more easily extended once we understand that there's no free, un caused will or choice.

Christs words "forgive them for they know not what they do" have a deeper meaning. He could've also said "forgive them for they can do no different"?