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[rick]

2 Corinthians 10:5King James Version (KJV)

5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Sometimes when I read scripture I get the impression I have free will because it tells me I need to do sometging or act upon something.

I don't really understand , sometimes I think To myself ,sure you have a will but your will is subjected to Gods will.

So if I wish to do something I can do it except Gods will trumps my will, would God trump my will if I try to do as 2 Corinthians 10:5 sujest or command.

I come to believe I can do nothing on my own even as Christ could do nothing on His own but what does that mean for me ?

If Christ wants me to live up to Corinthians then I can but if Christ does not want me to then I can't ?

I guess right now I see it as a catch 22 situation, Im not complaining ,just not umderstanding.

If I don't understand , is it because God called me but did not choose me ? I know scripture say many are called but few are chosen, I often wonder if the called never gets the meaning where as the elect do but none the less I do feel God wants me to keep plugging away just the same.

There are so many things I don't understand and.wonder at times of the things I do undedstand , how much of those things do I fully understand or how much is lacking ?

But I should say in all things God has given everyone hope even if they themselves don't know it.

God bless everyone.

[Wittenberg]

Wow Rick! I can definitely relate to what you wrote.

[Kat]

Hi Rick, when you think about our 'will,' it's what we think, what we determine in our minds and becomes 'our' desires and then what we ultimately choose to do or say, "For as he thinks in his heart, so is he" (Pro 23:7). Of course there is all the causes and circumstances involved, but this cause and effect is a natural law that applies to everything. So when we are worldly we are carnal minded, living according to the desires of the flesh, our ego. But when God's Spirit becomes indwells, then He begins to influence us and though we still have our own will, the Spirit's influence begins to make big changes in the way we think.

Rom 8:16  The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Now God always expresses in Scripture what His will is for the elect to do, it is written for the elect, because He doesn't leave us to figure this all out on our own, we have the testimony of the all the Scripture to guide us. Look at the verses before the verse you brought up and you will see the elect have the "power of God" - His Holy Spirit, to fight the battles in this world.

2Cor 10:3  Of course, we are living in the world, but we do not wage war in a world-like way.
v. 4  For the weapons of our warfare are not those of the world. Instead, they have the power of God to demolish fortresses. We tear down arguments
v. 5  and every proud obstacle that is raised against the knowledge of God, taking every thought captive in order to obey the Messiah. (ISV)

God's working in believers is a process, He is preparing us and we must go through many trials that show us our weaknesses.  When we begin to see how truly ugly this carnality is, and we do not like it and want to get rid of it, that is the Holy Spirit working with us  showing us this, our will is changing. So through these experiences over and over again we begin to see and understand what we must change.

God wants us to have a real hatred for carnality and a great desire for this truth, proven to be sincere over time, so that when He does reveal these things we will really appreciate it. So our will is slowly changed, the Spirit gives us a convection of the truth, and we begin to get in line with God's will and purpose. But it's a process and it takes time.

Php 2:13  for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

We are being shown that we must trust and obey God completely and that's what OUR will is learning to do. But it takes OUR own desire and effort with God's Spirit influencing us, but WE are doing the changing, WE are working to conform our minds to His will, trusting Him.

Php 2:12  Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

I've began to see that these truths are built one upon another, there is an order I guess and we cannot skip ahead, that why we all seem to be at different levels, we are. God is not going to just drop this precious truth in our lap, it is a gradual process, as we strive to learn it comes little by little of God showing us what He knows we are ready to understand.

If your eyes have been opened to these truth, then you must believe you are in the race... think of how few in this world have even heard these truths, much less believe them. But I think this is a race of endurance we are in, we may get discouraged at times, but we can never give up. This is not suppose to be easy, I think it has to do with nothing of real value is easily obtained.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

2 Corinthians 10:5King James Version (KJV)

5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Sometimes when I read scripture I get the impression I have free will because it tells me I need to do sometging or act upon something.

I don't really understand , sometimes I think To myself ,sure you have a will but your will is subjected to Gods will.

So if I wish to do something I can do it except Gods will trumps my will, would God trump my will if I try to do as 2 Corinthians 10:5 sujest or command.

I come to believe I can do nothing on my own even as Christ could do nothing on His own but what does that mean for me ?

If Christ wants me to live up to Corinthians then I can but if Christ does not want me to then I can't ?

I guess right now I see it as a catch 22 situation, Im not complaining ,just not umderstanding.

If I don't understand , is it because God called me but did not choose me ? I know scripture say many are called but few are chosen, I often wonder if the called never gets the meaning where as the elect do but none the less I do feel God wants me to keep plugging away just the same.

There are so many things I don't understand and.wonder at times of the things I do undedstand , how much of those things do I fully understand or how much is lacking ?

But I should say in all things God has given everyone hope even if they themselves don't know it.

God bless everyone.

Hello Rick,

I'm not sure what the struggle is but I will say in my experience, the SUM of God's Word is truth. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. Don't let one verse throw your understanding off but always keep in mind the SUM. Only God's spirit can give understanding so this is all in the hand's of God.

http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm:

RELATIVE VS. ABSOLUTE

If a theologian can't see the "absolute" versus the "relative" in Scripture, he is in no position to teach anyone.

A little boys asks: "Why did God say in Gen. 3:9: 'Where art thou [Adam]?' Mommy says that God knows everything." (I Jn 3:20). You say, "Of course God knew where Adam was. Adam sinned. Adam felt bad. He thought he could hide from God. God was condescending to man's level. It was for Adam's benefit that God asked, 'Where art thou Adam?'" You say, "That's not a problem. That's easy to understand and answer. It's stupid to think that God didn't know where Adam was."

And, of course, we have Scriptural proof that God knew where Adam was because "He [God] knows all" (I Jn 3:20)

Neither did our Lord ask questions out of ignorance:

"Believe ye that I am able to do this?" (Matt. 9:28)

"Who is my mother, and who are my brethren?" (Matt. 12:48)

"How many loaves have ye?" (Matt. 15:34)

"Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?" (Matt. 116:13)

Christ asked dozens of questions during His ministry. But He already knew all the answers:

" ... because of His knowing ALL men ... " (Matt. 21:27).

Christ even answered questions by asking questions. The Pharisees asked why His disciples transgressed the "traditions." Our Lord knew how to "answer a fool according to his folly" (Prov. 26:5) by asking: "Wherefore are you also transgressing the precept of God because of your tradition?" (Mat. 15:3)

This brings up another apparent contradiction, however, because Prov. 26:4 says: "answer not a fool according to his folly ... " Our Lord knew how to do that as well: "Neither am I telling you by what authority I am doing these things." (Mat. 21:27). These two scriptures in Proverbs should teach us to never pit one verse of Scripture against another. Verse 4 and 5 do not contradict. They are both true.

So if it's stupid to think that God didn't really know where Adam was, a relative statement condescending to man's level, isn't it then, likewise, stupid to believe that God contradicts Himself in the following verses:

 

THE RELATIVE:                                                                                                                         THE ABSOLUTE:

" ... seek, and ye shall find ... " (Mat. 7:7)                                                          "Not one is seeking out God" (Rom. 3:11)
"God changed His mind" (Ex. 32:14)                                                                         "God is not a man Who changes His mind" (I Sam. 15:29)
" ... choose you this day whom ye will serve." (Josh. 24:15)                                      "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you ... " (Jn. 15:16)
" ... whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God ... " (I Jn. 3:10)                          "All is of God" (II Cor. 5:18)
"Zechariah was just before God" (Lk. 1:5) (Comparing him to the corrupt priests)             "Not one is just" (Rom. 3:10) (Comparing man with God)
 

One is the "relative" the other is the "absolute." One is from man's point of view, comparing men with men, the other is from God's point of view. One shows how a thing is perceived while the other shows how it actually is. One is for minors while the other is for the mature.

Both Scriptures are true. The relative is true and the absolute is true. They do not contradict. However, one really is "relative" while the other is "absolute."

Theologians are always taking Scriptures that speak of the relative, from man's point of view, and insist that these verses are absolute. By doing this they commit a double sin. Because then they insist that these relative truths actually nullify God's absolute declarations. They won't admit to this in their own words, but this is what they do when they retain the "relative" at the expense of rejecting the "absolute."

Even theologians admit that their free will theory is limited. So they have invented "limited free will." They use analogies like a cow on a tether or a fly in a jar or a lion in a cage. Their freedom is limited to the confines of their restraints, but within those confines they are nonetheless, free. Is this true? Is there such a thing as "limited" free will? Or is this just more theological double-talk?

Only in religion do simple words lose their meaning. Let's look at Webster's Twentieth Century Dictionary: Page 963, "limited, a. Restricted." Page 682, "free, a. without restriction." So here then is what theologians want us to believe: Man has a will that is restricted without restriction.

Man does not have "limited" free will. Otherwise God would have "limited" sovereignty. Man has no free will and God has total sovereignty. Theologians try to make high what is low and try to bring low what is high. These teachings do not glorify God.

Somebody has been taking William James too seriously. God is not sitting around waiting to see what man will do through his "free will" so that He can then figure out what to do about it. Rather than conclude from the "wisdom of the world" that man has a free will (and thus deny the sovereignty of God), we must conclude that since God is sovereign, man can not and does not have a free will. This is logical, sensible, and lawful. It is Scriptural and it glorifies God.

Hopefully this excerpt will help a little? God's sovereignty and our choices are a difficult concept to understand but not if we stick to the scriptures.

We work out or salvation with fear and tremble... because... BECAUSE it is GOD who works in US both to will and to do of His good pleasure. These admonishments such as corinthians only make sense if we see that it is God who brings about the desire for us to do those things, then He brings about the effort we put forth, then He brings about the strength for us to do it and then we become obedient and do it. All the way through though it was "I live, nevertheless, not I but CHRIST IN ME." He must increase and I must decrease. For we are HIS workmanship. Predestined according to the foreknowledge of God. Therefor it is not of him who wills or him who does but of God who shows mercy. Has not the potter power over clay, to make one vessel of honor and another of dishonor? Behold, I [Jesus] am MAKING all things new!

So then, why do you call me Lord and do not the things which I say?

When YOU are bringing every thought captive to Christ and YOU are obeying then you will see that GOD is in you working.

I hope some of this helps.

God bless,
Alex

[Porter]

Great questions Rick and ones I've thought about also so I can relate.

I've heard through Ray's writings and my own studies that one of the keys to understanding is by repenting. 

Act 2:38  "Repent," Peter said to them, "and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Joh 14:26  But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit--the Father will send Him in My name--will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have told you.

Ray on repentance.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html

The reason that I want to talk about repentance is because repentance is a major door to understanding. I tried to understand many things before I truly repented.

You can’t take credit for it; in His time He will do it.  If you are going to be one of the few that are actually chosen, then God is going to do it.  So why am I up here telling you if He’s going to do it, just go home and let Him do it!  Right?   Because God uses the “foolishness of teaching”, that’s why.  That’s the only reason I’m up here.  He uses the foolishness of preaching.  Some of you will remember this day.  It will be a turning point in your life!  You’ll say, “that Saturday afternoon Ray was preaching about Repentance, it changed my life forever!”   That is, if God has decided that is what today will do for you…

So I was wanting to repent of everything.  EVERYTHING.  I didn’t want to hold on to anything!  Give it all up.  And in my heart and mind, I was able to do it.  And I didn’t have to struggle!  I mean, I struggled all my life against these sins and now I didn’t have to struggle anymore.  The temptations would come up, but I would just put a stop on it.  That was it; God put me in control.  And I didn’t have to fight it night and day.  It just started to take care of itself.  Because there was a power working in my mind that I didn’t have before.  It was now God’s time to do that.

And when I had nothing more to repent of, that I knew of, then the scriptures started opening up.  I started understanding the scriptures that I never understood before.  And I would learn something every month.  Every week, and then almost every day!  New things, spiritual things, lofty things.  So, if the spirit of God is going to be between your ears (you understand your heart is in your brain…), when the spirit of God starts to motivate your mind then you have greater capacity.  If you have a glass of water and you want to pour a coke into it, you’ve got to pour the water out, you’ve got to make room.  And that’s what happens in your life when you make room for God.

If you read my series on the Lake of Fire, you know I talk about the “man of sin” who sits on the throne claiming that he is god.  That’s in you!  That throne is in you.  That man of perdition is you.  And he sits in there claiming to be god.  And you can’t serve two masters.  Before Jesus Christ can sit on the throne of your heart, the man of perdition has got to get out!  And of course, the presence of the Lord is what drives out the man of perdition.  The presence of God coming into your life will drive out this beast (the carnal mind).  And then you’ll begin to understand things that you never understood before.

Who knows what the first word was that Jesus Christ said in his ministry?  According to Matthew it was, “Repent.”  So if that’s the first word out of our Savior’s mouth, maybe we ought to look at it a little bit…

[Pini56]

Hello,

This might be a better FULL rendering for you:

2Co 10:3  For though we may be living in the flesh, we are not fighting after the way of the flesh
2Co 10:4  For the arms with which we are fighting are not those of the flesh, but are strong before God for the destruction of high places;
2Co 10:5  Putting an end to reasonings, and every high thing which is lifted up against the knowledge of God, and causing every thought to come under the authority of Christ;
2Co 10:6  Being ready to give punishment to whatever is against his authority, after you have made it clear that you are completely under his control. (BBE).

Repentance Is The Key as explained above, but remember: "It is the Goodness of God that brings you to Repentance"

If you are finding it hard to understand the 'Scriptures', Believing in a few Fundamental Truths will help you see things in a different Light and thus begin to understand more fully.

Here is an excerpt from Ray that might help you:
         
   1.   Almost everything in the entire  Bible is SPIRITUALLY discerned.

   2.   Jesus taught in parables so that his listeners in public would NOT understand a thing He was saying. He had to teach the meaning of these parables to His disciples in private. 

   3.   Once you understand thoroughly a half dozen spiritual TRUTHS, the rest is kinda easy.

   4.   One will never ever understand the Scriptures with the mind set and carnal mindedness of the Christian tradition. You must understand a few spiritual Truths that are totally rejected in all religions of  the world and atheists as well. Here are a few:
   •   God is totally Sovereign. That is, He is in control of EVERYTHING and ALL THE TIME. Many people actually claim to believe this, but they really really don't.
   •   The words "everlasting" "evermore," "forever," "for ever AND EVER[?]," and "eternal" are nowhere found even once in any Hebrew or Greek manuscript from which our modern language bibles are translated.
   •   Man does NOT have a "free" will that can make decisions independent of his Sovereign God.
   •   Man is mortal, not immortal as Christendom teaches. Therefore, when people die, they are DEAD, not alive in a different geographical location.
   •   The ONLY hope for believers is that there will be a RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

There are unscriptural Biblical doctrines that are of no value to Christendom. They teach that dead people go to a place called hell and a place called heaven WHEN THEY ARE DEAD!
   •   Hell is not the translation of any word in either the Hebrew or Greek Manuscripts. 

   •   Heaven and hades (often translated hell) are not geographical locations.
   •   God will save all mankind, seeing that He IS THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD.
   •   God is a family and not a trinity.
   •   We are under a New Covenant, and the old is passing away.
   •   God is LOVE (no really, He really is, He would never torture most of His creation in fire for all eternity).

         Well, there you have it. Understand those few principles and the Bible is a whole new book.

Here is another excerpt from Ray that might help also:

I will give you some of the reasons "why we are here."
   1.   A great and wise creator GOD PUT US HERE. He started the human family.
   2.   God is not stupid, He had a grand and eternal purpose in mind for making mankind.
   3.   God has many attributes, powers, knowledge, etc., that obviously mankind DOES NOT. But, God DOES WANT us to have those same attributes, especially LOVE!
   4.   Qualities of character such as Love are not instantaneously created, they must be developed. That development takes a creation, circumstances, and time. And so, God creates all these things necessary for their development.
   5.   Although God is GOOD, He nonetheless has a knowledge and understanding of both good AND EVIL. And so we TOO must come to an understanding of both good and evil. Why? Because ALL KNOWLEDGE hinges on their proper understanding. 

People say things without ever realizing how stupid or impossible their thoughts or statements are. Most Christians suppose that if Adam and Eve had not sinned, then we all would STILL, right now, be enjoying the beautiful life of happiness and bliss in a fabulous garden of Eden. NOT SO!!! Adam and Eve did  NOT appreciate what they had with God in the garden before they sinned. They had NO CONTRAST to compare it with. 

Now here is a key piece of understanding and wisdom. God wants CHILDREN. God is building a FAMILY. Children are to grow up and have the attributes of their parents. But these things must be LEARNED BY EXPERIENCE!  Not only didn't Adam and Eve appreciate what they had, they ABSOLUTELY COULD NOT have appreciated what they had, because they experienced ONLY GOOD.

Try to come up with even ONE VIRTUE, such as love, patience, honesty, goodness, faithfulness, loyalty, obedience, bravery, etc., etc., etc., ANYTHING of a virtuous nature, that does not involve the overcoming of SOME FORM OF EVIL! There is you answer! There IS NO VIRTUE, NO CHARACTER, NO STABILITY of any kind in any one, except he overcomes some form of EVIL. 

Now can you see why we are here? Now can you see why there is not only good, but so much evil in the world? It is necessary! God did not put it here simply to make us miserable! God is NOT in a battle for supremacy with Satan. God CREATED Satan. God USES Satan. And Satan too, will be saved after he has done all of his dirty work. God will make him repent.
   6.   God is enlarging His family into BILLIONS of sons and daughters.  This life is part of the training ground to be the very SONS OF GOD.
All evil including DEATH itself will be abolished when God has used them to bring His family to a level of love and righteousness that He desires. We will then inherit all that God has and all that God is. God is truly OUR FATHER.
I hope that helps your understanding a little better. Life will not always be miserable and painful as it may seem to you now. This too shall pass.


Geoff.

[Extol]

That's one of my favorite Ray e-mails, thanks Geoff. 

[rick]

We human being are so weak, so fragile its a miracle anyone make it. Jesus did say what is impossible for man is possible with God.

We get beat up by this old world and if that's not enough we beat ourselves up too. I guess we are our own worst enemy. Its nice to know in this life there is a place where truth can be found.

Getting saved is impossible for man no doubt but with God it is possible, but very differcult.

I think the lake of fire is much more difficult in this age than it will be in the next age , but that is my opinion and I have my reasons for thinking so.

I know if I were to understand the entire word of God in its entirety I would still have only understood only a fragment of Who God is and try to comprehend His glory , I don't know if that is remotely possible.

I find myself longing for only the conclusion of Gods plan but Im well aware of the hardships the struggles and the pain every human being must endure till the end of Gods plan.

I know the bible says consider it all joy but its a hard thing to do when all there seems to be is painful moments at every turn.

perhaps its where Im at but sometimes I think its better to be dead than to be alive but I know time ends all things from my experiences in life.

God bless everyone.

[Jeff]

We human being are so weak, so fragile its a miracle anyone make it. Jesus did say what is impossible for man is possible with God.

We get beat up by this old world and if that's not enough we beat ourselves up too. I guess we are our own worst enemy. Its nice to know in this life there is a place where truth can be found.

Getting saved is impossible for man no doubt but with God it is possible, but very differcult.

I think the lake of fire is much more difficult in this age than it will be in the next age , but that is my opinion and I have my reasons for thinking so.

I know if I were to understand the entire word of God in its entirety I would still have only understood only a fragment of Who God is and try to comprehend His glory , I don't know if that is remotely possible.

I find myself longing for only the conclusion of Gods plan but Im well aware of the hardships the struggles and the pain every human being must endure till the end of Gods plan.

I know the bible says consider it all joy but its a hard thing to do when all there seems to be is painful moments at every turn.

perhaps its where Im at but sometimes I think its better to be dead than to be alive but I know time ends all things from my experiences in life.

God bless everyone.

Its ironic (or not) that I found your post right now. I was just thinking "God, we struggle so much and still far less than most. Our only hope is that it's real - what we believe - and long for your conclusion to this age. It's the only thing we have to hold on to. We face each day's trials and our faith is tested, our hope wavers, and rallies, and we thank you for that, but please don't let the world's suffering be for nothing.  Your pain is greater than ours as you suffer with us. Please hurry."

This seems to be my daily prayer, and the fact is that our physical comfort is a blessing compared to what a large part of the world is living with every day, and I feel guilt, but wonder if our suffering is just different - emotional and mentally oriented. When people suffer physical trials it's base - survival of the body. In that circumstance the emotional aspect is irrelevant.  These people need basic sustenance. We have physical comfort but our thoughts are torment. I just keep praying that tomorrow God returns for us - ALL.

[indianabob]

Well stated Jeff,
My thoughts follow along a similar line.
When the uncalled are being judged in the future they will have loving assistance from the "lake of fire" to encourage them in their efforts as much as to burden them with confessions and repentance.

Having access to a "forum" of like believers will be in a much different context.

I- Bob

[rick]

We human being are so weak, so fragile its a miracle anyone make it. Jesus did say what is impossible for man is possible with God.

We get beat up by this old world and if that's not enough we beat ourselves up too. I guess we are our own worst enemy. Its nice to know in this life there is a place where truth can be found.

Getting saved is impossible for man no doubt but with God it is possible, but very differcult.

I think the lake of fire is much more difficult in this age than it will be in the next age , but that is my opinion and I have my reasons for thinking so.

I know if I were to understand the entire word of God in its entirety I would still have only understood only a fragment of Who God is and try to comprehend His glory , I don't know if that is remotely possible.

I find myself longing for only the conclusion of Gods plan but Im well aware of the hardships the struggles and the pain every human being must endure till the end of Gods plan.

I know the bible says consider it all joy but its a hard thing to do when all there seems to be is painful moments at every turn.

perhaps its where Im at but sometimes I think its better to be dead than to be alive but I know time ends all things from my experiences in life.

God bless everyone.

Its ironic (or not) that I found your post right now. I was just thinking "God, we struggle so much and still far less than most. Our only hope is that it's real - what we believe - and long for your conclusion to this age. It's the only thing we have to hold on to. We face each day's trials and our faith is tested, our hope wavers, and rallies, and we thank you for that, but please don't let the world's suffering be for nothing.  Your pain is greater than ours as you suffer with us. Please hurry."

This seems to be my daily prayer, and the fact is that our physical comfort is a blessing compared to what a large part of the world is living with every day, and I feel guilt, but wonder if our suffering is just different - emotional and mentally oriented. When people suffer physical trials it's base - survival of the body. In that circumstance the emotional aspect is irrelevant.  These people need basic sustenance. We have physical comfort but our thoughts are torment. I just keep praying that tomorrow God returns for us - ALL.

Hi Jeff,

I believe everyone experiences pain regardless of what ones belief is, I think Gods elect probable suffer the most.

when I was in the Air force I had to adhere to the laws of the country I served in plus I had to adhere to the uniform code of military justice.

I believe Gods elect have twice as much to obey , but their reward is great.

God bless.

[AwesomeSavior]

"We are being shown that we must trust and obey God completely and that's what OUR will is learning to do. But it takes OUR own desire and effort with God's Spirit influencing us, but WE are doing the changing, WE are working to conform our minds to His will, trusting Him".

That sounds a lot like Glory to Us, Kat.

[Jeff]

Well stated Jeff,
My thoughts follow along a similar line.
When the uncalled are being judged in the future they will have loving assistance from the "lake of fire" to encourage them in their efforts as much as to burden them with confessions and repentance.

Having access to a "forum" of like believers will be in a much different context.

I- Bob

This made me smile - the idea of the Lake of Fire being an encouragement. If not for the wise counsel of this forum, I would be utterly alone in the universe, except for Gods presence.

[Kat]

"We are being shown that we must trust and obey God completely and that's what OUR will is learning to do. But it takes OUR own desire and effort with God's Spirit influencing us, but WE are doing the changing, WE are working to conform our minds to His will, trusting Him".

That sounds a lot like Glory to Us, Kat.

I think you missed my point, it certainly is not OUR glory, it is the Holy Spirit in us doing it all. Here is what I also said.

"But when God's Spirit becomes indwells, then He begins to influence us and though we still have our own will, the Spirit's influence begins to make big changes in the way we think."

"...that is the Holy Spirit working with us  showing us this, our will is changing."

"...the Spirit gives us a convection of the truth, and we begin to get in line with God's will and purpose."

Even the comment that you brought up I mentioned "God's Spirit influencing us." I am very aware it all comes from God through Christ (the vine) to us, we can do nothing of our self, it Christ in us.

John 15:5  "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

The main thing I was trying to get across is that this is not just happening to us, but by His Spirit we bear fruit, these works are being done IN us and THROUGH us, not just to us. Yes we are "His workmanship," and that is for the purpose of "good works" that we do.

Eph 2:10  For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Christ is already working in us now, we will have good works and we're being taught and shown how the Spirit works in us, so when Christ returns we will be ready to serve with Him.

Here is an excerpt from the Bible study 'Do James And Paul Contradict?'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9742.0.html ---

James 2:21  Was not Abraham our father justified by works…

You have done this things, God says.

v. 21 …when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

He didn’t actually kill him, but in his own heart and mind he offered him, he did. He did that thing.

v. 22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

There it is!  Why can’t people read that, there it is. That’s what Paul says in Ephesians 2, not by your works, but by works of God, you’re His workmanship, He’s going to do good works through you. Here he says, “See you how faith wrought with works, by works was faith made perfect.” Did Paul cast away good works? No, he said he was eager to do them. He said we should be zealous of them.  He mentioned good works in the two page book of Titus about six times. Paul in Ephesians 2, you can’t separate faith and the good works that God will do in you. Can you see now that it’s faith BY works, was faith made perfect?
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[rick]

Hi Rick, when you think about our 'will,' it's what we think, what we determine in our minds and becomes 'our' desires and then what we ultimately choose to do or say, "For as he thinks in his heart, so is he" (Pro 23:7). Of course there is all the causes and circumstances involved, but this cause and effect is a natural law that applies to everything. So when we are worldly we are carnal minded, living according to the desires of the flesh, our ego. But when God's Spirit becomes indwells, then He begins to influence us and though we still have our own will, the Spirit's influence begins to make big changes in the way we think.

Rom 8:16  The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Now God always expresses in Scripture what His will is for the elect to do, it is written for the elect, because He doesn't leave us to figure this all out on our own, we have the testimony of the all the Scripture to guide us. Look at the verses before the verse you brought up and you will see the elect have the "power of God" - His Holy Spirit, to fight the battles in this world.

2Cor 10:3  Of course, we are living in the world, but we do not wage war in a world-like way.
v. 4  For the weapons of our warfare are not those of the world. Instead, they have the power of God to demolish fortresses. We tear down arguments
v. 5  and every proud obstacle that is raised against the knowledge of God, taking every thought captive in order to obey the Messiah. (ISV)

God's working in believers is a process, He is preparing us and we must go through many trials that show us our weaknesses.  When we begin to see how truly ugly this carnality is, and we do not like it and want to get rid of it, that is the Holy Spirit working with us  showing us this, our will is changing. So through these experiences over and over again we begin to see and understand what we must change.

God wants us to have a real hatred for carnality and a great desire for this truth, proven to be sincere over time, so that when He does reveal these things we will really appreciate it. So our will is slowly changed, the Spirit gives us a convection of the truth, and we begin to get in line with God's will and purpose. But it's a process and it takes time.

Php 2:13  for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

We are being shown that we must trust and obey God completely and that's what OUR will is learning to do. But it takes OUR own desire and effort with God's Spirit influencing us, but WE are doing the changing, WE are working to conform our minds to His will, trusting Him.

Php 2:12  Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

I've began to see that these truths are built one upon another, there is an order I guess and we cannot skip ahead, that why we all seem to be at different levels, we are. God is not going to just drop this precious truth in our lap, it is a gradual process, as we strive to learn it comes little by little of God showing us what He knows we are ready to understand.

If your eyes have been opened to these truth, then you must believe you are in the race... think of how few in this world have even heard these truths, much less believe them. But I think this is a race of endurance we are in, we may get discouraged at times, but we can never give up. This is not suppose to be easy, I think it has to do with nothing of real value is easily obtained.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Im starting to see the connection here,  casting down imagination could also be said as casting down ego,  we human being like to imagine ourselves as being # 1 even when we know we are not, but we do imagine or fantasize because fantasizing is imagination.

So when we cast down imagination we are doing it but when we do that, its understood its being done by the power of God and not us or it will not last if we do such a thing through our own will or our will power if there is such a thing as that.

Thanks Kat and God bless.

[Kat]

Hi Rick, yes you are starting to put it together.

2Cor 10:5  Casting down imaginations G3053, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Here is what Strong's concordance has on that word.
G3053 logismos - computation, that is, (figuratively) reasoning (conscience, conceit): - imagination, thought.

It's our reasoning and that is pretty much what our will/ego is. It is the Holy Spirit indwelling that motivates us to bring our ego into check, to begin to get our will in line with God.

John 14:26  But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

We normally have no desire to subdue the ego, why there are numerous book out that teach we must first love ourselves... self is the beast in all it's carnality, it is worldliness. That is the opposite of what the Scripture say.

1John 2:15  Do not love the world, nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him,
v. 16  because all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

So the Holy Spirit is helping us, the inward man/woman, so teaching us from within how to overcome these selfish tendencies.

Eph 3:16  that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man,

2Cor 4:16  Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.

The "I must decrease" (John 3:30), that is old self of lust and carnality, as Paul put it "O wretched man."

Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

But we are not losing self completely, we are not to become robots with no will of our own, we shall still have our personality and imagination. We are just being renewed in our minds/will, being conformed or transformed to be like Christ's righteousness.

Eph 4:22  that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
v. 23  and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
v. 24  and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Col 3:9  Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds
v. 10  and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,
v. 11  where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

mercy, peace and love
Kat