Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[rick]

I hear life is what you make it, How true is that statment ?  I hear if you copy everything a millionaire did you will become a millionaire too. How true is that statement ?

I hear in America one can be whatever they want but don't they all know life is rigged  ?

One says Im going to be this or be that or Im going to do this or do that but perhaps in the end one will discover they did what God determined and the only thing they did was to make the choice to do what God intended for them to do all along ,nothing more and nothing less.

Today, life is rigged, tomorrow you will be blessed.

God bless everyone, some today, the rest tomorrow. But no matter who you are you shall be blessed. For He shall bless all nations of the earth. 

[lilitalienboi16]

I hear life is what you make it, How true is that statment ?  I hear if you copy everything a millionaire did you will become a millionaire too. How true is that statement ?

I hear in America one can be whatever they want but don't they all know life is rigged  ?

One says Im going to be this or be that or Im going to do this or do that but perhaps in the end one will discover they did what God determined and the only thing they did was to make the choice to do what God intended for them to do all along ,nothing more and nothing less.

Today, life is rigged, tomorrow you will be blessed.

God bless everyone, some today, the rest tomorrow. But no matter who you are you shall be blessed. For He shall bless all nations of the earth. 

Psalm 65

1 Praise waiteth for thee, O God, in Sion: and unto thee shall the vow be performed.
2 O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come.
3 Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away.
4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.
5 By terrible things in righteousness wilt thou answer us, O God of our salvation; who art the confidence of all the ends of the earth, and of them that are afar off upon the sea:
6 Which by his strength setteth fast the mountains; being girded with power:
7 Which stilleth the noise of the seas, the noise of their waves, and the tumult of the people.
8 They also that dwell in the uttermost parts are afraid at thy tokens: thou makest the outgoings of the morning and evening to rejoice.
9 Thou visitest the earth, and waterest it: thou greatly enrichest it with the river of God, which is full of water: thou preparest them corn, when thou hast so provided for it.
10 Thou waterest the ridges thereof abundantly: thou settlest the furrows thereof: thou makest it soft with showers: thou blessest the springing thereof.
11 Thou crownest the year with thy goodness; and thy paths drop fatness.
12 They drop upon the pastures of the wilderness: and the little hills rejoice on every side.
13 The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing.

Psalm 8:1-5King James Version (KJV)
1 O Lord, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

1Ch 17:16 And David the king came and sat before Jehovah, and said, Who am I, O Jehovah God, and what is mine house, that thou hast brought me hitherto?
1Ch 17:17 And this is small in Thine eyes, O God, and Thou speakest concerning the house of thy servant afar off, and hast seen me as a type of The Man who is on high, O Jehovah God!
1Ch 17:18 `What doth David add more unto Thee for the honour of Thy servant; and Thou Thy servant hast known.
1Ch 17:19 O Jehovah, for Thy servant's sake, and according to Thine own heart Thou hast done all this greatness, to make known all these great things.
1Ch 17:20 O Jehovah, there is none like Thee, and there is no god save Thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

2Sa 7:18 And king David cometh in and sitteth before Jehovah, and saith, `Who am I, Lord Jehovah? and what my house, that Thou hast brought me hitherto?
2Sa 7:19 And yet this is little in Thine eyes, Lord Jehovah, and Thou dost speak also concerning the house of Thy servant afar off; and this is the form of The Man, Lord Jehovah.
2Sa 7:20 And what doth David add more to speak unto Thee? and Thou, Thou hast known Thy servant, Lord Jehovah.
2Sa 7:21 Because of Thy word, and according to Thy heart, Thou hast done all this greatness, to cause Thy servant to know it .
2Sa 7:22 Therefore Thou hast been great, Jehovah God, for there is none like Thee, and there is no God save Thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

What a God! How blessed are we to have such an awesome God and Saviour!

Indeed, who is man, what do we add, that He is so mindful of us? I cannot fathom the depth of such love, there is no measuring it!

God bless,
Alex

[DEJI]

hi Rick. you can not be whatever you want to be in America or anywhere else in the world. two people can take the same decisions and have quite different results. Ecclesiastes 9:11 Young's Literal Translation goes thus:
I have turned so as to see under the sun, that not to the swift is the race, nor to the
mighty the battle, nor even to the wise bread, nor even to the intelligent wealth, nor
even to the skilful grace, for time and chance happen with them all.

[Kat]

Hi Rick, interesting way of putting it "rigged," as in everything is predetermined beforehand. But you are right, it has to be this way for God to be sovereign. But it's not as simple as that sounds, because we do not know the future, therefore we cannot know for certain what is yet to transpire and so we hope/pray for certain things. But we hope for things, not because we have self determination, but because He made us to be thinking creatures and God wants us to know and understand Him better. So He is working in our heart and minds through things that happen to learn how to desire His will in everything, actually to trust Him in everything that happens.
Here are a few excerpts on this.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=94.0 -----------

Dear Scott:

Don't assume, Scott, that since God is sovereign, that we have nothing to do with anything. We have a lot to do with our own lives. We are the ones who MUST LIVE OUT our lives. No one else will do it for us. But in that living out, we just need to undersand that our wills are not free to go against God's predetermined plan.


http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html -----------------------

EVERYTHING HAS A PRECISE APPOINTED TIME

God Almighty is responsible for everything and He brings about everything only at its precise "APPOINTED SEASON AND TIME." Let's read it:

"To every thing there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven" (Ecc. 3:1).

The implications of this verse are staggering. The very foundation of human psychology and theology crumbles under the weight of this declaration of God’s Word. This is undoubtedly one of the ten most profound Scriptures in the entire Bible.

If we are to be honest and believe this verse, then we must concede that absolutely NOTHING is left out God’s profound declaration except man’s anti-scriptural theory of "free will."

The word "season" in the KJV is translated from the Hebrew word, z[e]man, and is defined in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary as: "APPOINTED season, occasion, time." And "purpose" is defined as: "pleasure, desire, matter." Sometimes rendered as "purpose" or "event."

Here’s a second witness to this grand declaration:

"Because to every purpose [matter or event] there is time and judgment..." (Ecc. 8:6).

And a third witness:

"…for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work" (Ecc. 3:17).

Here are a couple translations that make this verse a little clearer:

"...for He has appointed a time for every matter, and for every work..." (The New Revised Standard Version).

"For He has set a season for every event and for every deed..." (The Concordant Literal Old Testament).

There is no wasted motion in God's creation, purpose and plan. Everything has an appointed time, and everything includes: "every purpose, every work, every matter, every event, and every deed." Where pray tell does "free will" fit into all this? It doesn’t. It clearly DOESN’T. Man has no free will. There is no such thing as free will. It is but the phantom of an "obscured heart" as we learned in Part C from Ecc. 3:11.

Again we ask, since "EVERY work, purpose, matter, deed and event" under heaven must happen at an "APPOINTED TIME," how can there be such a thing as human, uncaused, "free-will?"

Is any man free to do anything other than what God HAS "appointed time" for? No.

Is any man free to do anything that God HAS NOT assigned an "appointed time" for? No.

Is any man free to do or not to do anything that God HAS or HAS NOT assigned an "appointed time" for? No.

Then how can man have a free will?

Man’s will is predicated on previous circumstances and causes, all of which originate in God’s preordained plan and purpose.

Christendom and her fabled doctrine of "free moral agency" is trapped and completely book-ended between:

[1] "To every thing there is a season [appointed time],and a time to every purpose [matter or event] under the heaven" (Ecc. 3:1).

AND:

[2] "I know that, whatsoever God does...NOTHING can be put to it, nor ANYTHING taken from it: and GOD does it" (Ecc. 3:14).

Someone might see a contradiction in God’s teaching. If the two above Scriptures are true, then why does God warn against "adding to or taking away from His word?" Well, like everything else that is beyond the realm of carnal comprehension, all of these things too, have been foreordained and pre-determined to happen only at their "APPOINTED TIME." God has appointed a time for false prophets to add and God has appointed a time for false prophets to take away from His word.


http://bible-truths.com/emails.html#whypray -----------------

I get asked this question quite often. Actually the fact that God is in control of EVERYTHING is a very good reason itself to pray.  We are totally reliant upon God for EVERYTHING!  Think about it. If there were a human being that you had to rely upon for EVERYTHING, would you not stay VERY CLOSE to that person and ALWAYS be in CONSTANT contact with them?  Of course you would.

I KNOW that I have had prayers ANSWERED, ONLY BECAUSE I ASKED!  But you might say, "How can that be if God predetermined to do it ANYWAY?"  But you see, He did not predetermine to do it "ANYWAY."  That is OUR ASSUMPTION that is not true. Listen:  God predetermined to do something for us only AFTER we asked for it!!  And yes, it is true, that God predetermined that we WOULD ASK FOR IT, as well.  We just can't out-think, or out-guess, or out-smart God no matter how hard we try.

Let me give you another piece of wisdom. We are told that we are to "Work out our OWN salvation" in the Scriptures.  How can we work out our own salvation if God has already determined that we will be saved and He is going to SAVE ALL?  Same answer as your question to prayer:  "Wherefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling [WHY? Next verse]...For [or because] it is GOD which works in you BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:12-13).

It is inspired of God that we pray and that we work. Just because it is God doing it, does not negate the fact that it will be done in us and through us. In time of real and desperate need, we will be brought to our knees before God whether it seems logical in the face of God's total sovereignty or not!


http://bible-truths.com/emails.html#whypray --------------------

I constantly receive emails from people who think there are obvious and blatant contradictions between the way we live and absolute laws of God.

The answer is contained in your own question. I realize that this takes a little thought. I have personally thought about all the possible implications of God's Sovereignty and our lack of free will, for thousands and thousands of hours.

Your question is a logical one. If God is going to do exactly what He has predetermined to do, in every and all situations, then our prayers will CHANGE NOTHING!  Right? WRONG!

But HOW CAN THAT BE? That's a contradiction of logic, isn't it? No, it is not. Here is the answer: God not only brings about the result which He always has in mind for every situation in life, and in every situation in the history of the world, but He ALSO BRINGS ABOUT THE MEANS BY WHICH THAT RESULT IS ACCOMPLISHED!

Therefore, nothing is accomplished AT ALL, unless God brings about the MEANS of accomplishing it.

Example:  When Paul was sailing on a ship to Rome, they ran into a terrible storm. It appeared that all would be lost. An angel appeared in the night to Paul and told him that not one hair of anyone's head would be harmed, but that all had to STAY ON THE SHIP!   Some attempted to depart from the ship. Paul told them that if ever they should not stay on the ship, they would DIE! Now then, how could they possibly "die" when an angel of the Lord told Paul that NO ONE WOULD DIE? A contradiction? Absolutely not.

Since God had already committed Himself to SAVING EVERYONE, He also made sure that the instructions needed to accomplish that WERE FOLLOWED PRECISELY! And so those men CAME BACK ON THE SHIP, and they were ALL SAVED JUST AS THE ANGEL TOLD PAUL!

But isn't prayer effective only if it CHANGES GOD'S MIND to do something for you that He wouldn't have done for you had you NOT prayed? Again, absolutely not. God is not a man that He should "change His mind" about anything, ever!  Now, learn something about prayer that virtually no one in all Christendom believes or understands. First, let's look at Romans 8:26.

From the King James:

"Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities, for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

This marvelous Scripture, however, does not bring out the whole truth contained in the Greek manuscripts regarding this verse, in the King James Version. Here is a better translation.

From the Concordant Literal New Testament:

"Now, similarly, the spirit also is aiding our infirmity, for what we should be praying for, to accord with WHAT MUST BE, we are not aware, but the spirit itself is pleading for us with inarticulate groanings."

"With WHAT MUST BE..."  There is the answer!  And here is the perfect application of this verse in the real world:

"And He went a little further and fell on His face, and prayed saying, O My Father, IF it be possible, let this cup pass from Me: [but that was NOT POSSIBLE! God had already PREDETERMINED that Jesus SHOULD drink this cup, and therefore, IMMEDIATELY recanted to the prodding of the Holy Spirit and said the following...]: nevertheless not as I will, BUT AS THOU WILL ['to accord with WHAT MUST BE']."

Then Jesus prayed again, WITHOUT asking God to take the cup from Him:

"He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O My Father, if this cup may NOT pass away from Me, except I drink it, THY WILL BE DONE" (Matt. 26:39 & 42).

Clearly Jesus was CAUSED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT to pray "in accord with WHAT MUST BE."

And the same thing that goes for prayer goes for EVERYTHING in our lives. It will always be according to God's preordained intention. That is not to say that things do not got AGAINST HIS WILL, they often do. But... BUT, it is also often God's intention that we DO GO AGAINST HIS STATED WILL. Many times it is God INTENTION that humanity goes AGAINST HIS WILL. In Romans 9:19 were it says, "For who has resisted His WILL?" it should be translated: "For who has resisted His INTENTION." This is a different Greek word from what is normally translated "will."

People also often ask why I do what I do on our web site in teaching people the Truths of God, if God is going to save everyone anyway. Again, the answer is simple: This is HOW God brings about the salvation of many people. By teaching and preaching. He doesn't have to do it this way, but He has CHOSEN to do it this way.  Hence we read:

"For after that in the  wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God BY THE FOOLISHNESS OF PREACHING to save them that believe" (I Cor. 1:21).

And, of course, we know that it is again, God Himself, Who gives us the faith to believe in the first place (Eph. 2:08).

Hope this helps your understanding a little better.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3622.0 --------

Yes, you have basically stated the facts correctly, however
    your conclusion is erroneous.
     
    You agree to believe that God does control all things in
    the Universe, but then suggest, therefore GOD DOESN'T
    NEED TO CONTROL ANYTHING!  How do you
    suppose it is that God DOES all the things He does?  He
    causes things to happen by the circumstances of His creation.
    I HAD to write my papers, even though from my perspective,
    it was I who volunteered to do so. And my paper has already
    had a profound effect on thousands of people's thinking with
    regards to Dr. Kennedy's evil and unscriptural sermons.
     
    You can't decide to stay in bed and stop living unless it has
    already been predetermined before the foundation of the world
    that this is the course you MUST TAKE.  We ARE the actors
    on God's stage of life, and we WILL perform as God directs.

    God be with you,
    Ray

[Extol]

I took a class called Black Religion in America, and one of the assignments was to write a paper about the prospects of poor black people versus the average white person. Can poor black people in America rise up out of their poverty and get out of the rut they have been in for generations? My paper said, essentially, that circumstances play a big part in it. A black child of a single mother in a city slum does not have the same prospects as a black child of doctors who live in an affluent suburb. The slum child can't just will himself to become a better person and get a higher education and a higher quality of life. It can happen, but for many of them it just won't, because the circumstances don't allow it.

Well this was not what the teacher (who is black) wanted to hear, apparently. I got mostly A's in college, but for this particular paper, I received a D+. 

[Kat]

I noticed in one of the excerpts above that Ray had mention something from part c of his myth of free will, so I looked it up and thought some excerpts from there would be a good addition to this thread.

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html -------------------

THE KING OF ASSYRIA’S OBSCURED HEART
VERSUS THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD

Last time I said that I would show you in the Scriptures an example where God tells us that He uses people to do His will, but that the one being used doesn’t know it, but rather thinks that he himself is doing the choosing and making the decisions and carrying out the intentions of his heart all according to his own presumed free will, whereas God says that it is He, and not the person being used, Who is in total control of the one being used.

Isaiah 10:
“O Assyrian, the rod of Mine anger, and the staff in their hand is Mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of My wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. (v. 5,6)

Howbeit HE means not so, neither does HIS heart [his ‘obscured’ heart—Ecc. 3:11] think so; but it is in HIS heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few. For he says, Are not MY princes altogether kings… (v. 7,8)
v
For he says, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by the wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man: (v. 13)

And my hand has found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathers eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped. (v.14)

Shall the ax [king of Assyria] boast itself against him that hews therewith [God]? Or shall the saw [king of Assyria] magnify itself against Him that saws with it [God] as if the rod [king of Assyria] should shake itself against them that lift it up [God], or as if the staff [king of Assyria] should lift up itself, as if it were no wood [but rather something with free will and the power of self-determinism].(v.15)
v
That section of Scripture is pretty much self-explanatory. This is a perfect example where God fills in the whys and wherefores of how He operated and worked with the king of Assyria to punish His people, Israel.
v
“He [God] has made everything fitting [not ‘beautiful’] in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does.”  (Ecc. 3:11).

So God has made everything that there is (even though much of it is evil, ugly, and NOT ‘beautiful,’) fitting, proper, appropriate, and suited for its own season, “but” or “however”—here comes a counter proposal, if you will. So God makes EVERYTHING proper and appropriate for His plan, however…. BUT, “…He has put OBSCURITY in their hearts…” so that, or in order that, they CANNOT know or understand what it is that He is doing to them in this human existence we call “life.” What a spiritual revelation!

We have hundreds of Scriptures that verify the fact that God does do according to His plan and intention, always, and everywhere, but there are few verses as this verse which tells us specifically how He had HID [concealed, obscured] this marvelous operation from the eyes of carnal humanity as this verse does.
v
God uses mankind with his “obscured heart” to do all of His intentions without mankind every consciously knowing that God is working His purpose through them—“so that no man can find out the work that God makes from the beginning to the end.”
v
But this is also how God works with all kings and presidents, and heads of corporations, and heads of families, and all humanity. God “…works ALL according to the counsel of His Own will.” But just like the King of Assyria, not so is all humanity thinking in THEIR heart. They don’t believe that God uses them on a daily basis just as He did with the King of Assyria.
v
This is all the strange work of God. There is no free will about it. We are all born out of a dark womb into the natural light of day, but this too is but a parable. We must be “born again” out of spiritual darkness of this age into the glorious light of the Sun of God. It is a painful journey, and requires an experience of evil to accomplish.
v
Here then is a proper translation of this most profound verse in Ecc. 1:13:

“It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it” (Concorant Old Testament).

Now we can easily understand what is being said in this verse.

This “experience of evil” is not the purpose or goal of human existence, but this is indeed the process by which God is bringing His Sons and Daughters into glory! Most translations have hidden the meaning of this verse of Scripture. The translations just couldn’t believe that God would do such a thing. They see it all around them. They see it in thousands of Scriptures, but they just couldn’t bring themselves to come right out and say it, as God obviously has stated in the original Hebrew of this verse.

And to this agrees the rest of Scripture:

“For ALL his days are SORROWS, and his travail [experience] GRIEF…”  (Ecc. 2:23).

The destiny of the human race is indeed GLORIOUS, but the journey is filled with evil and sorrow. This not to say that there are not many beautiful and good things in life, but for most the misery far far outweighs the pleasurable.
v
But Jesus Christ can set us free from the carnal mind, and give us spiritual discernment, and increase our knowledge, and make us wise so that we can understand. Here then is the revelation of a major mystery:
v
“He [God] has made everything FITTING in its season; However, He has put OBSCURITY in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does from the beginning to the end.” (Ecc. 3:11).

What an amazing Scripture.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[rick]

Hi Rick, interesting way of putting it "rigged," as in everything is predetermined beforehand. But you are right, it has to be this way for God to be sovereign. But it's not as simple as that sounds, because we do not know the future, therefore we cannot know for certain what is yet to transpire and so we hope/pray for certain things. But we hope for things, not because we have self determination, but because He made us to be thinking creatures and God wants us to know and understand Him better. So He is working in our heart and minds through things that happen to learn how to desire His will in everything, actually to trust Him in everything that happens.

Hi Kat,

Its my hope that no one misunderstands what Im implying when I said life is rigged !

one should be happy life is rigged because God rigged it in our favour , sometimes it doesn't appear that way because good things don't always happen to us but like scripture says will you except good from the hand of God but but not evil ?

life doesn't always go the way we would like it too but believe it or not we should be thankful it does not. It is Gods wisdom that is going to bring all things about not mans wisdom.

I cannot comprehend the greatness of God , I have or am developing a healthy fear of God our creator, He holds all the cards.

I like how Job said my bed will give me comfort but God sent him nightmares that cause him to toss and turn all night so as to not rest.

God should be concidered in all things at all times , that is great wisdon to live by. Yes life is rigged and I for one am very thankful.

God bless you Kat and everyone else too,

[rick]

hi Rick. you can not be whatever you want to be in America or anywhere else in the world. two people can take the same decisions and have quite different results. Ecclesiastes 9:11 Young's Literal Translation goes thus:
I have turned so as to see under the sun, that not to the swift is the race, nor to the
mighty the battle, nor even to the wise bread, nor even to the intelligent wealth, nor
even to the skilful grace, for time and chance happen with them all.

Hello DEJI,

Yes, I agree, you made my point .

God bless.

[lareli]

It's all a conspiracy. Your life. My life. Everything.

I saw a mod remove a post years ago and then comment something to the effect that "we're not gonna let this forum turn into a 'conspiracy theory' forum"

Yet all of us here believe that it's ALL a conspiracy and God is the conspirator. He sends them a delusion that they should believe a lie. Conspiracy.

When you feel like the world is conspiring against you... You got fired. Spouse left you. Bank foreclosed on you... Conspiracy. All part of the master plan.

But it's a good plan. Amen.

[Kat]

So largeli you think God is a great conspirator and His plan is a conspiracy?

conspiracy : noun - a conspiracy is a secret agreement between two or more people to commit an unlawful or harmful act.

Well I certainly don't look at what God's doing here in that way, not at all. It is much more than a good plan, it is brilliant beyond our possible comprehension at this time. Conspirator? God does not break His own laws... we suffer for now and yes indeed it is painful to this physical life, but it's temporary and actually a very short duration.

James 4:14  You don't even know what your life tomorrow will be! You are like a puff of smoke, which appears for a moment and then disappears. (GNB)

Instead of looking on this as harmful I think the spiritual gain will so far outweigh whatever we must bare now, that we will actually be glad we suffered.

2Cor 4:16  Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.
v. 17  For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory,
v. 18  while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[indianabob]

In life, when a good coach or adviser or parent challenges us with difficult tasks not of our own planning it is for our own good. We all are born with ego and it needs to be placed under control to the good of the team. Even those with gifts of special talents need to learn to play with a team spirit so that the whole team may grow and prosper.
A team that does not work together for the good of all is a team of unfulfilled players competing where they should be cooperating in order to enjoy the success of each of their fellow team members.
Winning may seem important, but sincere "agape" love for one another is the true goal.

I-bob

[rick]

We all are born with ego and it needs to be placed under control to the good of the team.

I-bob

Hi Bob,

You know, it takes ego to tame ego , well, you know , the team members might become angry or dismayed if you dont curtail, ego doesn't want to look bad, ego must keep its image looking good. so it goes along to get along, after all what good is ego without someone to feel better than ?

[lareli]

So largeli you think God is a great conspirator and His plan is a conspiracy?

conspiracy : noun - a conspiracy is a secret agreement between two or more people to commit an unlawful or harmful act.

Well I certainly don't look at what God's doing here in that way, not at all. It is much more than a good plan, it is brilliant beyond our possible comprehension at this time. Conspirator? God does not break His own laws... we suffer for now and yes indeed it is painful to this physical life, but it's temporary and actually a very short duration.

James 4:14  You don't even know what your life tomorrow will be! You are like a puff of smoke, which appears for a moment and then disappears. (GNB)

Instead of looking on this as harmful I think the spiritual gain will so far outweigh whatever we must bare now, that we will actually be glad we suffered.

2Cor 4:16  Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.
v. 17  For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory,
v. 18  while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

I probably agree with all you've said here.

I don't look at it as harmful or unlawful. I know what the definition says but I think the negative connotation (unlawful, harmful) attached to the word 'conspiracy' is unwarranted. If the word 'conspiracy' truly has to be negatively attached to "harmful" or "unlawful" then it's the wrong word to describe my thought.

It's a beautiful conspiracy. A holy and righteous conspiracy. It's a secret plan/plot between God, Christ. To use angels... to use evil.. to send a delusion that they should believe a lie... to cause us to repent.. to cause us to love.. to cause us to hate.. to cause Adam to eat.. to bring salvation to all.

[indianabob]

Rick,
Not sure what you meant.
Could you explain a lot more or better.
Inquiring minds want to know.
I-bob

[Kat]

Hi largeli, i was wondering if that was what you meant, that's why I put the definition up for it. It can be hard to know what people really mean with the words they use, so I usually just default to what most dictionaries have as the meaning.

His plan is like a secret plot, but even that word is used for our own doings and something done in secret usually does have the negative attached to it, like scheme, conspire, connive, collude, and intrigue, all these have negative attached to them as in illegal or dishonest. Because what humans do in secret is usually for a bad purpose, but God's purpose are always for the good.

In Scripture God's plan is referred to as a mystery : noun - something which baffles or perplexes. synonymies : Chinese puzzle, closed book, conundrum, enigma, mystification, puzzle, puzzlement, riddle, why.
(Merriam-Webster)

Rom 16:25  Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began

1Cor 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,

Eph 1:9  having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,

Eph 3:9  and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;

Col 1:26  the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
v. 27  To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Col 2:2  that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ,

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[rick]

Rick,
Not sure what you meant.
Could you explain a lot more or better.
Inquiring minds want to know.
I-bob

Hi Bob,

Sure, what my meaning is was simply this, as I look at myself which God shows me is that everything we do is totally self centered.

Everything we do is meant for us to benefit one way or the other. If anyone wants to understand anyone else all they need to do is take a good look at themselves.

And this includes helping a old feeble women cross the street, a totally self centered act even though it seems noble.

God bless all.

[lauriellen]

"The destiny of the human race is indeed GLORIOUS, but the journey is filled with evil and sorrow. This is not to say that there are not many beautiful and good things in life, but for most, the misery far far outweighs the pleasurable." -Ray

No truer words were ever spoken. I have seen enough misery and loss that I can hardly bare it. I watch friends and family around me, pillars of our 'Christian' community, who are so sure that God is not responsible for any of it...blissfully unaware...I wonder how quickly they would buckle under the weight of knowing that God is not only responsible, but all of their evils and sorrows are and always were a part of God's plan. I don't think many could handle that truth.

[lilitalienboi16]

"The destiny of the human race is indeed GLORIOUS, but the journey is filled with evil and sorrow. This is not to say that there are not many beautiful and good things in life, but for most, the misery far far outweighs the pleasurable." -Ray

No truer words were ever spoken. I have seen enough misery and loss that I can hardly bare it. I watch friends and family around me, pillars of our 'Christian' community, who are so sure that God is not responsible for any of it...blissfully unaware...I wonder how quickly they would buckle under the weight of knowing that God is not only responsible, but all of their evils and sorrows are and always were a part of God's plan. I don't think many could handle that truth.

Lauri,

Just yesterday I was out to lunch with some classmates between classes. They were talking about how donald trump spoke at our school and how he wasn't a real christian. I asked them, what is a 'real christian?' They told me that anyone who denies the trinity is pretty much a heretic and that trump is just talking to get the vote. I asked them, where in the bible does it talk about the trinity? I told them, I don't believe in the trinity. One of them promptly told me , 'Well then I don't consider you a christian.' I said , 'ouch.' To which I then gave them a few of my scriptures and arguments against the trinity. One of them concieded he had never heard the things I was saying and was silent. The other proceed to prod me some more about my beliefs. He then said, to one of my replies, 'that's like saying God ordained the crusades.' I responded, 'well God did plan the for the crusades to take place.' He said, 'no way.' I continued, 'Yea, God even says He creates evil in Isaiah, and Job asks 'shall we recieved good at the hand of the Lord and not also evil?' Amos asks rhetorically 'shall their be evil in a city, and has not the Lord done it?' They were floored, jaws dropping. The one who was probing me went as far as to say that the Isaiah verse didn't exist. I told him, 'Its isaiah 45 I believe.' They had enough of me at that point. They kindly agreed to disagree and we left it at that.

I don't know what came of it, I feel like nothing for me and I don't know if I am to blame for these discussions taking place or if it is merely God and His wisdom doing things I can't always understand. I hate conversations like that, I think to myself, 'Alex what are you doing?' You know they won't agree.' I don't know...

So yea.. definitely relate to what you're saying. Its a lonely walk Lauri, so very very lonely. Thank God for the good times and His spirit, and the glorious future that each day draws ever the nearer!

God bless,
Alex

[lauriellen]

Thanks for that Alex. I can definitely relate to your story. While listening to conversations around me, I sometimes wonder how they would react if they only REALLY understood and knew the truth of God creating and using evil, no free will, etc. They would definitely reject the message and messenger now. I think perhaps the human mind just cannot conceive of a God who is love and good, also using evil to the extent and extreme that is happening in humanity. I can hardly wrap my mind around it, even tho I know it is true.
And yes, it is a very very, very lonely and sorrowful walk.

[lilitalienboi16]

Thanks for that Alex. I can definitely relate to your story. While listening to conversations around me, I sometimes wonder how they would react if they only REALLY understood and knew the truth of God creating and using evil, no free will, etc. They would definitely reject the message and messenger now. I think perhaps the human mind just cannot conceive of a God who is love and good, also using evil to the extent and extreme that is happening in humanity. I can hardly wrap my mind around it, even tho I know it is true.
And yes, it is a very very, very lonely and sorrowful walk.

*Hug* We're going to make it Lauri. We're going to finish this race. I had a wonderful dream once, of all of us, together. What a feeling it was, what a dream.

Love to you,
Alex