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[rick]

"The destiny of the human race is indeed GLORIOUS, but the journey is filled with evil and sorrow. This is not to say that there are not many beautiful and good things in life, but for most, the misery far far outweighs the pleasurable." -Ray

No truer words were ever spoken. I have seen enough misery and loss that I can hardly bare it. I watch friends and family around me, pillars of our 'Christian' community, who are so sure that God is not responsible for any of it...blissfully unaware...I wonder how quickly they would buckle under the weight of knowing that God is not only responsible, but all of their evils and sorrows are and always were a part of God's plan. I don't think many could handle that truth.

Lauri,

Just yesterday I was out to lunch with some classmates between classes. They were talking about how donald trump spoke at our school and how he wasn't a real christian. I asked them, what is a 'real christian?' They told me that anyone who denies the trinity is pretty much a heretic and that trump is just talking to get the vote. I asked them, where in the bible does it talk about the trinity? I told them, I don't believe in the trinity. One of them promptly told me , 'Well then I don't consider you a christian.' I said , 'ouch.' To which I then gave them a few of my scriptures and arguments against the trinity. One of them concieded he had never heard the things I was saying and was silent. The other proceed to prod me some more about my beliefs. He then said, to one of my replies, 'that's like saying God ordained the crusades.' I responded, 'well God did plan the for the crusades to take place.' He said, 'no way.' I continued, 'Yea, God even says He creates evil in Isaiah, and Job asks 'shall we recieved good at the hand of the Lord and not also evil?' Amos asks rhetorically 'shall their be evil in a city, and has not the Lord done it?' They were floored, jaws dropping. The one who was probing me went as far as to say that the Isaiah verse didn't exist. I told him, 'Its isaiah 45 I believe.' They had enough of me at that point. They kindly agreed to disagree and we left it at that.

I don't know what came of it, I feel like nothing for me and I don't know if I am to blame for these discussions taking place or if it is merely God and His wisdom doing things I can't always understand. I hate conversations like that, I think to myself, 'Alex what are you doing?' You know they won't agree.' I don't know...

So yea.. definitely relate to what you're saying. Its a lonely walk Lauri, so very very lonely. Thank God for the good times and His spirit, and the glorious future that each day draws ever the nearer!

God bless,
Alex

Hi Alex,

Its sounds like your love for God would not allow you to be silent when your classmates were saying things about God you knew were not true, I commend you for your love of God.

God bless.

[indianabob]

Hi Alex and Lauri,

Hug indeed. Great discussion.

You know our journey is quite similar to the development of a new land such as the continent of North America. Thousands of people had landed on the East shore of North America and after a few decades their descendants needed more room. So to help the New nation advance a few hardy citizens were selected and carefully prepared to become pioneers and travel by horse and covered wagon toward the as yet unmapped Western territories.

It was the intention of the governing bodies that the West would soon be filled with those who came after the adventuring pioneers, those who would fill the territory until it could be qualified as a State with a Governor and a legislature and thousands of farms and businesses.

Now the pioneers were no better citizens or better persons in their own right, no they were just the pioneers, the men and women who were available to leave their birth place and who had been selected to go ahead of all of those who would follow to carry out the work of developing the land so that it could bear fruit for generations to come.

Aren't we who have heard the call and have been chosen to go ahead of a similar type and aren't we just as ordinary as all of those who will come after? Someone had to be harvested first for the Spring harvest, the wave sheaf offering to go ahead in order to prepare the way for the great fall harvest. And that group of pioneers is us.

Indiana Bob

[lareli]

Hi Alex and Lauri,

Hug indeed. Great discussion.

You know our journey is quite similar to the development of a new land such as the continent of North America. Thousands of people had landed on the East shore of North America and after a few decades their descendants needed more room. So to help the New nation advance a few hardy citizens were selected and carefully prepared to become pioneers and travel by horse and covered wagon toward the as yet unmapped Western territories.

It was the intention of the governing bodies that the West would soon be filled with those who came after the adventuring pioneers, those who would fill the territory until it could be qualified as a State with a Governor and a legislature and thousands of farms and businesses.

Now the pioneers were no better citizens or better persons in their own right, no they were just the pioneers, the men and women who were available to leave their birth place and who had been selected to go ahead of all of those who would follow to carry out the work of developing the land so that it could bear fruit for generations to come.

Aren't we who have heard the call and have been chosen to go ahead of a similar type and aren't we just as ordinary as all of those who will come after? Someone had to be harvested first for the Spring harvest, the wave sheaf offering to go ahead in order to prepare the way for the great fall harvest. And that group of pioneers is us.

Indiana Bob

Hmmm. Very interesting comparison. But this 'new land' this 'unmapped land' wasn't new or unmapped. There were millions of people who were already living there.. They were raped and slaughtered into borderline extinction by the pioneers and those who would follow.

These pioneers and those who would follow used God and Christianity as justification for their rape and genocide of the people from whose land they 'discovered'.

"They came with a Bible and their religion stole our land, crushed our spirit... And now tell us we should be thankful to the 'Lord' for being saved." ~Chief Pontiac 1712-1769.

 "The Indians are so naive and so free with their possessions that no one who has not witnessed them would believe it. When you ask for something they have they never say no. To the contrary they offer to share with anyone." "They would make fine servants.. With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want." ~Christopher Columbus

[indianabob]

Largeli,

Point taken. And you are correct about the facts of how human expansion and colonization of new lands takes place. It is sad that an imperial attitude goes with exploration of unmapped areas by existing civilizations. The Bible illustrates that it has always been so.
-
However most of the people who went out into the land to establish a farm and live in a little log cabin weren't like that description. Most were not greedy and did work hard to get along with the original tribes. And yes their children, when they grew up, did benefit from the unloving things that some ancestors did to the original occupants of the new land. And yes religion was no excuse for that terrible and selfish behavior. We today who have been called out should understand even better that the Original tribes were not rejecting Christ, because most of them were not being called any more than people from our society today.

I think we both understand that there are greedy, selfish people in the best of societies including religious societies and secular societies.
-
That doesn't necessarily mean that the average working person who loves their family and wants a better life for them is of the same attitude.
-
In any case my story was to illustrate only that we who have been given the understanding to believe in this age are not much different that those who will come later. We are just the first fruits of a much greater harvest. We are not the better fruits. We are just the first to be ripened to useful maturity by our creator so that the way can be prepared for the work of bringing all or everyone into the same glorious condition in the end.

God has always worked that way. God delegates HIS work to those of HIS creation. God lets us participate in the growth and development of a believing society rather than doing it all Himself.
Of course we know that it really is His doing, but in secret to those who are not given to understand.
-

Hope that this will help a little to illustrate my point.
Thanks for listening, Indiana Bob

[Kat]

Hmmm. Very interesting comparison. But this 'new land' this 'unmapped land' wasn't new or unmapped. There were millions of people who were already living there.. They were raped and slaughtered into borderline extinction by the pioneers and those who would follow.

These pioneers and those who would follow used God and Christianity as justification for their rape and genocide of the people from whose land they 'discovered'.

"They came with a Bible and their religion stole our land, crushed our spirit... And now tell us we should be thankful to the 'Lord' for being saved." ~Chief Pontiac 1712-1769.

 "The Indians are so naive and so free with their possessions that no one who has not witnessed them would believe it. When you ask for something they have they never say no. To the contrary they offer to share with anyone." "They would make fine servants.. With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want." ~Christopher Columbus

You are right about that largeli, and the same type thing has happened all through history, look at Genghis Khan who ruthlessly slathered whole cities one after the other and took the all the lands of the people he conquered, same with Julius Caesar and no doubt countless others. The strong take from what they want from the weak, it is part of this evil experience of this age.

Maybe a physical shadow of the spiritual reality to come... when Christ returns He will completely conquer the whole world and take over. He will cast all the wicked, corrupt rulers aside, no army can oppose Him and He will be the Omnipotent Ruler the world. His indignation, His vengeance will be toward all the tyrants, the mighty warriors who have rejoiced of the number they have killed in battle, the ruthless rulers who ordered the death of people with easy. No they will have no escape, think of Paul's encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus.

Rev 19:11  Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.

Rev 19:15  Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Eze 22:31  Therefore I have poured out my indignation upon them. I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath. I have returned their way upon their heads, declares the Lord GOD."

Isa 34:2  For the indignation of the LORD is against all nations, And His fury against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He has given them over to the slaughter.

Jer 10:10  But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King. At His wrath the earth will tremble, And the nations will not be able to endure His indignation.

Hab 3:12  You marched through the land in indignation; You trampled the nations in anger.

Zep 3:8  "Therefore wait for Me," says the LORD, "Until the day I rise up for plunder; My determination is to gather the nations To My assembly of kingdoms, To pour on them My indignation, All My fierce anger; All the earth shall be devoured With the fire of My jealousy.

We know everybody will give account and all the slaughter and destruction is symbolism of God's justice in correcting the carnality and evil in people, it's spiritually destruction, certainly not killing them.  Now of course carnal men take and destroys out of greed, they covet what they see and they enjoy taking from the weak... but when Christ return He will rule and judge the nations in righteousness. All the wicked acts of depraved people will now live in the presents of Christ's rule and will be held accountable.

Rom 12:19  Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."

1Cor 3:13  each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
v. 14  If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
v. 15  If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

When Christ returns He will deal strongly with the wicked and there are plenty who have lived that will only understand strength and power and they won't be any resistance, who would dare to stand up to the all mighty God. People will be purged of their old ways and wicked character traits and they will learn righteousness and turn to God who will save them from themselves. Christ will take possession of everything, all property, everything and give it to whom He sees fit, those deserving. The world will flourish under His glorious rule.

Zec 2:8  For thus says the LORD of hosts: "He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye.
v. 9  For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me.
v. 10  "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst," says the LORD.
v. 11  "Many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you.
v. 12  And the LORD will take possession of Judah as His inheritance in the Holy Land, and will again choose Jerusalem.
v. 13  Be silent, all flesh, before the LORD, for He is aroused from His holy habitation!"

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lareli]

Largeli,

Point taken. And you are correct about the facts of how human expansion and colonization of new lands takes place. It is sad that an imperial attitude goes with exploration of unmapped areas by existing civilizations. The Bible illustrates that it has always been so.
-
However most of the people who went out into the land to establish a farm and live in a little log cabin weren't like that description. Most were not greedy and did work hard to get along with the original tribes. And yes their children, when they grew up, did benefit from the unloving things that some ancestors did to the original occupants of the new land. And yes religion was no excuse for that terrible and selfish behavior. We today who have been called out should understand even better that the Original tribes were not rejecting Christ, because most of them were not being called any more than people from our society today.

I think we both understand that there are greedy, selfish people in the best of societies including religious societies and secular societies.
-
That doesn't necessarily mean that the average working person who loves their family and wants a better life for them is of the same attitude.
-
In any case my story was to illustrate only that we who have been given the understanding to believe in this age are not much different that those who will come later. We are just the first fruits of a much greater harvest. We are not the better fruits. We are just the first to be ripened to useful maturity by our creator so that the way can be prepared for the work of bringing all or everyone into the same glorious condition in the end.

God has always worked that way. God delegates HIS work to those of HIS creation. God lets us participate in the growth and development of a believing society rather than doing it all Himself.
Of course we know that it really is His doing, but in secret to those who are not given to understand.
-

Hope that this will help a little to illustrate my point.
Thanks for listening, Indiana Bob

Hi bob, yes I see your point.

But why do you say that the native peoples were not being called? Is it because they didn't have knowledge of the Christ? But if you read many of the accounts written about them by Columbus and many others, the natives lives and ways of treating people resembled the early church in Acts more so than any 'Christian' I've ever known.

If someone has never heard of the Christ but obeys the law of Christ, which is to love your neighbor as yourself, isn't that persons conscience showing that he has Christ written on his heart? Doesn't Romans talk about those who have never heard of Christ and how their conscience either convicts them when wrong or affirms them when good? Showing that even though they may not have the intellectual knowledge of the Christ being born and dying and being resurrected, they know Him in their hearts?

[Kat]

Hi bob, yes I see your point.

But why do you say that the native peoples were not being called? Is it because they didn't have knowledge of the Christ? But if you read many of the accounts written about them by Columbus and many others, the natives lives and ways of treating people resembled the early church in Acts more so than any 'Christian' I've ever known.

If someone has never heard of the Christ but obeys the law of Christ, which is to love your neighbor as yourself, isn't that persons conscience showing that he has Christ written on his heart? Doesn't Romans talk about those who have never heard of Christ and how their conscience either convicts them when wrong or affirms them when good? Showing that even though they may not have the intellectual knowledge of the Christ being born and dying and being resurrected, they know Him in their hearts?

Rom 2:10  But God will give glory, honor, and peace to all who do what is good, to the Jews first and also to the Gentiles.
v. 11  For God judges everyone by the same standard.
v. 12  The Gentiles do not have the Law of Moses; they sin and are lost apart from the Law. The Jews have the Law; they sin and are judged by the Law.
v. 13  For it is not by hearing the Law that people are put right with God, but by doing what the Law commands.
v. 14  The Gentiles do not have the Law; but whenever they do by instinct what the Law commands, they are their own law, even though they do not have the Law.
v. 15  Their conduct shows that what the LAW commands is written in their hearts. Their consciences also show that this is true, since their thoughts sometimes accuse them and sometimes defend them.
v. 16  And so, according to the Good News I preach, this is how it will be on that Day when God through Jesus Christ will judge the secret thoughts of all.

Yes people can and do good things that are not His chosen, and when Christ returns He will judge every person according to how they have lived and it certainly will benefit them if they've had good deeds attributed to them in this life.

1Cor 3:13  each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
v. 14  If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
v. 15  If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

But there is only one way to receive salvation and come up in the first resurrection and that is through Jesus Christ, "the Door."

John 10:9  I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

Titus 3:4  But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
v. 5  not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
v. 6  whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
v. 7  that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

1Peter 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
v. 4  to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
v. 5  who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

Joh_8:12  Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Mat 5:14  Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Mat 6:23  But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee (Columbus?) be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Mat 5:13  Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.


Many are called--few are chosen.



 
 

[lareli]

  Yes people can and do good things that are not His chosen, and when Christ returns He will judge every person according to how they have lived and it certainly will benefit them if they've had good deeds attributed to them in this life.
   

I understand, thanks Kat

[judy]

I love you guys, even your squabbling. Now I know why i was raised in taverns of which my parents owned and why I was born to immigrant grandparents who became successful bootleggers!!! I'm serious here, while reading this thread it became quite clear why and however long remaining my husband will be an alchoholic, unless God changes His mind. I need to fully accept this and quit trying to change this. I was made for him, loved him, still do and who else would put up with him, a very poor boy who married too young and still doesn't know who he is. ME!!!!! But God has given me an acceptance of these people, love for them, tools, understanding and who else would have put up with me, seriously.  I think I'm right where I should be or I wouldn't be. judy

[Kat]

I love you guys, even your squabbling. Now I know why i was raised in taverns of which my parents owned and why I was born to immigrant grandparents who became successful bootleggers!!! I'm serious here, while reading this thread it became quite clear why and however long remaining my husband will be an alchoholic, unless God changes His mind. I need to fully accept this and quit trying to change this. I was made for him, loved him, still do and who else would put up with him, a very poor boy who married too young and still doesn't know who he is. ME!!!!! But God has given me an acceptance of these people, love for them, tools, understanding and who else would have put up with me, seriously.  I think I'm right where I should be or I wouldn't be. judy

Here is a excerpt from the article 'Why Does God Love You.'

http://bible-truths.com/WhyGodLovesYou.htm ---------

Eph. 2:10 says that we are "His workmanship" ("achievement" might be a better word, in that it means "something accomplished successfully). And God's ultimate plan of universal salvation certainly points to a successful accomplishment. We are God's achievement because it is He that made us of His kin, His race, and it is He that made us unique. We have a part to play in God's plan, but rest assured that the final result will be God's achievement. We can be appreciative, and we can love God back for making us unique and putting us into His family. It should be comforting to everyone that [1] We will all be in God's family. God will not loose one single son or daughter and we will not loose one single brother or sister. [2] There is something so unique about each and every one of us that only we can fulfill.
v
So each of us individually are "the creation of God." That being true, there must be a reason He created you as you. There is not one person on earth that is here by accident or unknown of by God. If God knows the number of hairs on your head (Matt. 10:30, which changes every time you brush your hair), then God knows a lot about you -- He knows EVERYTHING about you.
v
So what is there about you individually that can be found in no other person? Why does God need you when He has so many billions of others? Surely there can be nothing in us individually that is lacking in all other persons on earth, is there? So why can we possibly be of such great value that God would die for us? each of us? What do you have that none other can fulfill?

And the answer is: Your "UNIQUENESS."

"Unique" is defined as: "Being the only one of its kind. Without an equal or equivalent, unparalleled." Whether you recognize yourself as being unique does not change the fact that you are, beginning with your very fingerprints. No two eyes are identical, nor teeth, or DNA. Every singer's voice is different. Every writer has his own unique phrasing. Every composer has unique features in his music. Every painter is unique. Each person walks with his own unique gait. Have you ever seen two identical sunsets? Are there really "identical twins?" Ask their husbands?
v
God made millions of flowers, millions of shades, millions of sizes, millions of shapes, and millions of fragrances. Shape, size, color, and fragrance make flowers unique, and add interest and beauty to our world.  And likewise, God made millions of people, and each has features that make each person unique. Once all of the selfish carnality is removed from man's heart, the human race will be the crowning pinnacle of God's creation. And each one of us will contribute something unique to the splendor of this achievement.

God's heart and mind is set on uniqueness, variety, and differences.
v
God knew how many and what kinds of children He wanted to surround Himself with for the rest of eternity, and you (personally) figured into that plan.

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?" (Rom. 8:28-32).

Yes, you were "for-known" before you were ever born

God's family, God's plan, God's universe would not be complete without YOU! No one can take your place. There is one of you and there will always only be one of you. You need to think about this and meditate on it. Too many people feel that their life is of little if any value. That's not true, you are so incredibly important to God that Jesus Christ voluntarily laid down His life on the cross, not because your sins had some power over God's life; not to pay some divine debt that you owed God, not to appease the wrath of God, not because He had to die for you, but because GOD LOVES YOU, and He would do anything to prove His eternal love and devotion for HIS FAMILY AND CHILDREN, of whom you are totally unique.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Eph 3:16  that He may give to you, according to the riches of His glory, with might to be strengthened through His Spirit, in regard to the inner man,
v. 17  that the Christ may dwell through the faith in your hearts, in love having been rooted and founded,
v. 18  that ye may be in strength to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height,
v. 19  to know also the love of the Christ that is exceeding the knowledge, that ye may be filled--to all the fulness of God; (Young's)

mercy, peace and love
Kat