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Author Topic: Are our thoughts really our thoughts ?  (Read 12884 times)

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Kat

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Re: Are our thoughts really our thoughts ?
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2016, 12:13:06 PM »

Coveting is a thought. Is God only sovereign over physical sin, ie murder or theft?
Just a thought

Hi Wittenberg, well Jesus indicated that what is in our hearts - our thoughts, are just as important when it comes to sin.

Mar 7:21  For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
v. 22  thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.
v. 23  All these evil things come from within and defile a man."

We have to learn to bring even our thoughts under control, Christ gave several specific examples of how thoughts can lead to sin.

Mat 5:28  But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Mat 5:22  But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.

Now things may come to mind and these bad things that cross our minds is not sin in itself, no these are just temptation. But it's when we hold onto these thoughts and are drawn to it and desire the temptation, that's when it becomes a problem for us.

James 1:14  But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
v. 15  Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Matt 13:52  Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old."

Matt 12:35  A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.

Jesus shows us that what is in the heart is of utmost importance to Him, because "For we know that the law is spiritual" (Rom 7:14) and we must learn to think/meditate on the spirit, "but to be spiritually minded is life and peace" (Rom 6:08).

Pro 4:23  Be careful how you think; your life is shaped by your thoughts. (GNB)

2Cor 10:3  For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.
v. 4  For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
v. 5  casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
v. 6  and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.

1Ch 29:17  I know also, my God, that You test the heart and have pleasure in uprightness...
v. 18  ...keep this forever in the intent of the thoughts of the heart of Your people, and fix their heart toward You.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 03:38:57 PM by Kat »
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rick

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Re: Are our thoughts really our thoughts ?
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2016, 09:19:28 PM »

Dave said:

Quote
The question was "are our thoughts really our thoughts".  YES!  YES, they are!

Are they 'caused'?  YES!  Yes, they are!

I've been attacked enough times to know that many evil thoughts are caused by external forces. I remind myself that the thought did not originate in me.

Hi Dennis,

Its interesting to me you mentioned outside forces ,  I've had many thoughts before where I said where did that come from ?

What's been on my mind is this cause thought, this may seem strange but God is doing a strange work.

We know , only God is good, so when I desire to do something good what ever it may be Im thinking God put that thought in me.

we also know God does not sin nor does God tempt anyone to sin , but because God created us spiritually weak we sin automatically.

God does not need Satan to get me to sin, that comes with ease. But how is it possible to sin unless we act upon some bad or evil thought ?

Ray said we process information, make choices and change our minds , so if all thoughts are caused as is all choices are caused what I wondering if every thought we have come from either God or Saran ?

God created Satan for a reason which is to tempt us , So my take is that our heads are in a way empty and God puts thoughts in our head and Satan puts thoughts in our head.

That is to me the experience of good and evil. Its these internal and external spiritual forces that give man his thoughts. They oringinat from God and from Satan, does that make sense ?

God bless.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 09:21:44 PM by Rick »
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cheekie3

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Re: Are our thoughts really our thoughts ?
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2016, 01:13:06 PM »

Rick -

I believe that our thoughts are our thoughts as they are in us and only the individual and Our Heavenly Father have knowledge of these thoughts.

I do not believe we originate our thoughts however, as these are all caused by causes outside of our control, put in place by Our Father.
 
One of my brothers once told me that Our Heavenly Father cannot read his thoughts.

I believe that the Scriptures teach that Our Father is Sovereign and is the ultimate cause of all things, as He created all things, and He causes all thoughts to come into our minds - otherwise He is not Sovereign.

If we do good, we know that this is of Our Father and is not of ourselves; and if we do evil, we know that He has prepared each one of our steps for us to walk in them.

We know that the end game is that we will ALL always be good and righteous with Our Father indwelling us.

As we learn and partake of the nine-fold Fruit of His Spirit, these Fruitful characteristics become a part of us - and the more He does this, the more we become like Him.

I believe the answer is Romans 9:16, as I understand that things start in our Hearts, before thoughts enter our Minds, and then into words and actions -

Romans 9 (YLT):

15 for to Moses He saith, `I will do kindness to whom I do kindness, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion;'

16 so, then -- not of him who is willing, nor of him who is running, but of God who is doing kindness:

17 for the Writing saith to Pharaoh -- `For this very thing I did raise thee up, that I might shew in thee My power, and that My name might be declared in all the land;'

18 so, then, to whom He willeth, He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth, He doth harden.

19 Thou wilt say, then, to me, `Why yet doth He find fault? for His counsel who hath resisted?'

20 nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form [it], Why me didst thou make thus?

21 hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?

22 And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction,

23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on vessels of kindness, that He before prepared for glory, whom also He did call -- us --

24 not only out of Jews, but also out of nations,

25 as also in Hosea He saith, `I will call what [is] not My people -- My people; and her not beloved -- Beloved,

26 and it shall be -- in the place where it was said to them, Ye [are] not My people; there they shall be called sons of the living God.'

27 And Isaiah doth cry concerning Israel, `If the number of the sons of Israel may be as the sand of the sea, the remnant shall be saved;

28 for a matter He is finishing, and is cutting short in righteousness, because a matter cut short will the Lord do upon the land.

29 and according as Isaiah saith before, `Except the Lord of Sabaoth did leave to us a seed, as Sodom we had become, and as Gomorrah we had been made like.'

I still find it hard to accept that there are people in the world that rape, murder, fraud, steal, deceive and lie; and I know the difference if someone steals to feed his starving family or if they delight in taking what is not theirs or worse. As we are to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil according to His wisdom and plan for His creation, it is best to keep talking to Him about all things, as it is all about His judgements to mould us in His image through our own unique and personal interactions with others.

We should test all things and put them into the subjection of His Commandments; and this includes our thoughts. I like to plan as best I can, and to have clean and clear thoughts - and at times unexpected thoughts come into my mind and I have to address these before I act on them - and only by the Grace of God can anyone of us do the right thing. I know that my thoughts today are clearer and cleaner than in my younger days, and I keep telling the Lord that I want my heart's desire, thoughts, speech and actions to be pleasing to Him.

I hope this helps a little.

Kind Regards.

George.

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Kat

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Re: Are our thoughts really our thoughts ?
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2016, 04:34:42 PM »


One thing I don't think is being taken into account, is that God gave us a brain... what I'm saying is that with our brain we use our senses to evaluate the world around us and process that information. That is what is so incredible about human beings, is that God gave us intellect to think, reason and make decisions. That all comes from how God designed and made us to have consciousness, that we are aware of the world around us and can interact with it.

But the brain is a carnal thing, you know we've had threads about ego, and the brain is all about self. Even seemingly good acts on our part are selfish. Ray spoke about how love is selfish in his marriage article, because we expect to be reciprocated for loving somebody. I think most things we do is with self preservation in mind... I suppose the least selfish reason to do something good would be because it makes us feel good, but even that comes about from our feelings.

So all the things we experience by sight, hearing, touch, taste and smell are things our brain takes in and then guides us to react to... that causes us to then think, reason and make a decision about it. But how does God fit in? Well I'll give an analogy, these comparisons seem to help sometimes. When a watchmaker makes all the intricate parts and carefully puts them together for a time piece, it's from a carefully calculated design. He knows what he is creating and how each part functions, all of it's components are made just for it's particular purpose and so when they are precisely aligned they will work together in a certain way to bring about the desired results. So is God's foreknowledge of this creation.

Pro 16:9  A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

Think about this, God has design each of us to be exactly as we are and everything that happens is exactly as He intended and knew it would happen, He knows the end from the beginning. He does not need to whisper a thought in anybody's ear to do something good, He already created the components/us that react with exacting precision from the causes He knew would be in play around us. In His foreknowledge He has already seen everything preform exactly as He knew it would and now He is overseeing how every single event does actually play out.

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'
v. 11  Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.

Psa 33:11  The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart to all generations.

I'm not saying God never gets involved with His creation, there are plenty of cases in Scripture where He does, but that was His intention. He has made Himself known to us in various ways (Heb 1:1). For now human being are having a carnal existence to gain this experience of good and evil - life, and yes good can and does come from carnal people, it's just a selfish good. It is not until the Holy Spirit comes indwelling that we then begin to have a spiritual experience as well and God's righteousness is developed in us... the called/church only think they are spiritual, you don't know what spiritual is until you actually experience it.

Satan is thrown into the mix to serve as God's adversary, Satan and the demonic realm bring a whole other element of evil to this creation. They are unseen (maybe visible in hallucinations that they cause in the mind) and dreadful to those that encounter them. When you think about a lot of the unexplained seemingly supernatural events, I think most all can be attributed to the demonic realm.

So this is the sovereignty of God, it's impossible to fully realize all His capabilities, His power is truly unfathomable, but we can see it in what He is doing in this incredible creation.

Rom 1:20  For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

It's a good thing that we can accept that all this creation is just as He meant it to be. And to think this knowledge has been hidden from the whole world, no matter how much they search and think on it and try to reason it out they cannot, only a privileged few are seeing these things.

1Cor 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,

Eph 1:11  In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Eph 1:9  having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,

Col 2:2  that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ,
v. 3  in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 07:15:38 PM by Kat »
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dave

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Re: Are our thoughts really our thoughts ?
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2016, 09:55:26 PM »

Excellent Kat! Excellent :)
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Colin

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Re: Are our thoughts really our thoughts ?
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2016, 12:57:01 AM »

Hello everyone

In Ray’s last article which he left for us, I “rediscovered” where he encouraged us to think and meditate.   As Kat brought out, God gave us intellect to think, reason and make decisions.   

quote: That all comes from how God designed and made us to have consciousness, so that we are aware of the world around us and can interact with it.

From Ray's article Why God Loves You …… 
 
Yes, you were "fore-known" before you were ever born
God's family, God's plan, God's universe would not be complete without YOU! No one can take your place. There is one of you and there will always only be one of you. You need to think about this and meditate on it. Too many people feel that their life is of little if any value. That's not true, you are so incredibly important to God that Jesus Christ voluntarily laid down His life on the cross, not because your sins had some power over God's life; not to pay some divine debt that you owed God, not to appease the wrath of God, not because He had to die for you, but because GOD LOVES YOU, and He would do anything to prove His eternal love and devotion for HIS FAMILY AND CHILDREN, of whom you are totally unique.      End of quote.

Ray was telling us that we can consciously concentrate our thoughts towards certain themes/topics. 

 This is also indicated in Proverbs 4. 

Prov  4:20  My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings.       21  Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart.     22  For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh.     23  Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.     24  Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee.    25  Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee.    26  Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established.   27  Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil.

Another piece of encouragement, dealing with how our thoughts should be centred and which Ray often quoted is

Philip 4:8  Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on [Greek  logizomai = take an inventory of] these things.       Colin
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Pini56

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Re: Are our thoughts really our thoughts ?
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2016, 09:45:43 AM »

Hello,

We make Hundreds of choices everyday. We might have many choices as to what to do in a particular situation, to go this way or that way, as Ray says: " the Choice you make is the only Choice you could have made".

Regards, Geoff.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 09:49:05 AM by Geoff »
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rick

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Re: Are our thoughts really our thoughts ?
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2016, 04:14:26 PM »


One thing I don't think is being taken into account, is that God gave us a brain... what I'm saying is that with our brain we use our senses to evaluate the world around us and process that information. That is what is so incredible about human beings, is that God gave us intellect to think, reason and make decisions. That all comes from how God designed and made us to have consciousness, that we are aware of the world around us and can interact with it.

But the brain is a carnal thing, you know we've had threads about ego, and the brain is all about self. Even seemingly good acts on our part are selfish. Ray spoke about how love is selfish in his marriage article, because we expect to be reciprocated for loving somebody. I think most things we do is with self preservation in mind... I suppose the least selfish reason to do something good would be because it makes us feel good, but even that comes about from our feelings.

So all the things we experience by sight, hearing, touch, taste and smell are things our brain takes in and then guides us to react to... that causes us to then think, reason and make a decision about it. But how does God fit in? Well I'll give an analogy, these comparisons seem to help sometimes. When a watchmaker makes all the intricate parts and carefully puts them together for a time piece, it's from a carefully calculated design. He knows what he is creating and how each part functions, all of it's components are made just for it's particular purpose and so when they are precisely aligned they will work together in a certain way to bring about the desired results. So is God's foreknowledge of this creation.

Pro 16:9  A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

Think about this, God has design each of us to be exactly as we are and everything that happens is exactly as He intended and knew it would happen, He knows the end from the beginning. He does not need to whisper a thought in anybody's ear to do something good, He already created the components/us that react with exacting precision from the causes He knew would be in play around us. In His foreknowledge He has already seen everything preform exactly as He knew it would and now He is overseeing how every single event does actually play out.

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'
v. 11  Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.

Psa 33:11  The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart to all generations.

I'm not saying God never gets involved with His creation, there are plenty of cases in Scripture where He does, but that was His intention. He has made Himself known to us in various ways (Heb 1:1). For now human being are having a carnal existence to gain this experience of good and evil - life, and yes good can and does come from carnal people, it's just a selfish good. It is not until the Holy Spirit comes indwelling that we then begin to have a spiritual experience as well and God's righteousness is developed in us... the called/church only think they are spiritual, you don't know what spiritual is until you actually experience it.

Satan is thrown into the mix to serve as God's adversary, Satan and the demonic realm bring a whole other element of evil to this creation. They are unseen (maybe visible in hallucinations that they cause in the mind) and dreadful to those that encounter them. When you think about a lot of the unexplained seemingly supernatural events, I think most all can be attributed to the demonic realm.

So this is the sovereignty of God, it's impossible to fully realize all His capabilities, His power is truly unfathomable, but we can see it in what He is doing in this incredible creation.

Rom 1:20  For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

It's a good thing that we can accept that all this creation is just as He meant it to be. And to think this knowledge has been hidden from the whole world, no matter how much they search and think on it and try to reason it out they cannot, only a privileged few are seeing these things.

1Cor 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,

Eph 1:11  In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Eph 1:9  having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,

Col 2:2  that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ,
v. 3  in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi Kat,

You bring out some great point, ones I understand and also think about, I know it's impossible to pin point how God works in us.

when I think about the choices I make I realize they really are my choices but these choices I make are made through causes God place before me and yes the choices I make will turn out either the way God wanted them to turn out or the way God knew how they would turn out.

So, if God wants me to do B He sets up circumstance A that He knows will cause me to choose B.

so, God did not force me to choose B, that was really my choice to make, or God set up A which force me to choose B, the only choice possible.

My thoughts are caused thoughts too, so what Im understanding here is the only thoughts I can have or will have are the only possible thoughts I can have according to the thought s God wants me to have.

God is sovereght and there are six billion people on earth today, so, six billion people can not think what they want and choose what they want contrary to what God wants.

Could it be that our intellect is only a tool that our soul uses to express its self through the five senses or through divine intervention or divine interjection.


God bless.


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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Are our thoughts really our thoughts ?
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2016, 11:24:11 AM »

Since God is operating all things after the LAW of His own will, I felt this from Ray's first free will article may help here as well.

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the law of his own will...

http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH

I stated earlier that it is through LAW that God controls all things in the universe. Only the ego of the carnal mind is so great that it actually believes it is the exception to the universal rule, and is not subject to law, but is free from law. I tell you assuredly, it is not exempt from law.

We saw that with Adam and Eve, as well as with Peter and all the disciples, that there was always a cause that made men will as they did. But why is it that the natural carnal mind always wills against God? Why does it always will to sin and do evil? And why does the spirit mind of converted man always desire to obey God and do what is good? Could there be a "law" at work here? Yes, indeed there is. The carnal-minded man is governed by one law, whereas the converted man is governed by a different law, but all are governed by law.

    "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death" (Rom. 8:1-2).

Notice that one law frees us from another law, but we still remain under some law. All unconverted carnal-minded humanity is under "the LAW of sin and death." That law controls the unregenerate man. And he cannot, of his own will, break the controls of that law. That law will control him until he dies or unless God intervenes with a different offsetting law, namely, "the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus."


I think LAW has a huge role in how we think and how we act. It provides God the foreknowledge to declare the end from the beginning and to call those things that are not as though they were. He knows exactly how everyone of us will act under the conditions that He already knows will come about because of His planning.

Like Kat said, God also plans in advance where He will intervene so that He still does intervene! Yet that doesn't mean our thoughts are not our own or don't originate from ourselves, it just means that they were not free to be any other way.

I really don't see us being empty basket heads were God and Satan take turn throwing thoughts in just because our thoughts aren't free to originate from within without reason/cause.

God bless,
Alex
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 11:31:35 AM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

rick

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Re: Are our thoughts really our thoughts ?
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2016, 12:32:43 PM »

Hi Alex,

Everything is govern by law, the law of cause and effect , the law of sin and death and the law of life in the spirit.

Its incredible to me how God is sovereght and who knows the ends from the beginning and that our thoughts and choices are caused and at the same time our thoughts are solely of ourselves.

Its totally mind boggling to me , it in itself shows the wisdom of a great creator. I feel totally free in both my thoughts and choices but understand both are indeed caused.

Perhaps a good analogy is the law of cause and effect, if I put my hand in fire I will
get burnt , God did not tell me to put my hand in the fire and my memory will prevent me from doing so in the future.

So Im a free thinker within the parameters of Gods laws which governs what we think do and say.

There are exceptions to Gods laws through direct divine intervention where applicable according to the purpose and will of God.

We are not responsible for our thoughts or choices because of how God created us and the laws that governs our lives but we are accoutable because our thoughts and choices are really ours to think and choose according to Gods laws.

Its all very fasinating , especially when I say to myself , why did I just do that but of course its because of the laws of God.

God bless all.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 12:35:05 PM by Rick »
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Porter

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Re: Are our thoughts really our thoughts ?
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2016, 03:24:42 PM »

Awesome discussion and very edifying.

It reminded me of what the Apostle Paul said once about this battle of the laws governing our wills that God created.

Rom 7:15  For I do not understand what I am doing, because I do not practice what I want to do, but I do what I hate.
Rom 7:16  And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17  So now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is sin living in me.
Rom 7:18  For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.
Rom 7:19  For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do.
Rom 7:20  Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me.
Rom 7:21  So I discover this principle: when I want to do good, evil is with me.
Rom 7:22  For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God's law.
Rom 7:23  But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body.

I think this illustrates both laws very nicely. I cant help but picture Jesus spiritually dragging Paul (and us) to God as his carnal mind fights tooth and nail to it's eventual death.

Rom 7:24  What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin.
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Luk 22:31  "Simon, Simon, look out! Satan has asked to sift you like wheat.
Luk 22:32  But I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And you, when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."

dave

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Re: Are our thoughts really our thoughts ?
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2016, 03:13:56 PM »

I have a friend and we are discussing the subject of free will. He insists that God cannot be the originator all because there are bad things being done that cannot be from a all sovereign God. My friend will always come back to his mainstay proof with this verse..... Jer 7:31  And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Now he believes that all will be saved and that "a hell of eternal torment" is a lie. He cannot accept that those who burned there sons and daughters could be the cause because... which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

I told him I believe that is was not in His heart but it was in their heart. But he says it wasn't in HIS heart to do these things...so then they must have had free will.

I have gone several rounds with this discussion and it just keeps going around and around. Any help? Thanks
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Kat

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Re: Are our thoughts really our thoughts ?
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2016, 03:36:01 PM »


Here is a excerpt from 'Twelve Truths to Understanding His Word,' it's not the exact verse you were speaking of, but has the same thought to it.

http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm ------------

A few years ago someone tried to trip me up with this verse:

"They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spoke it neither came it into My mind" (Jer. 19:5).

Here, I was told, is absolute proof that God learns new things that He didn’t know before. Nonsense.

This is a simple problem of translating. The word translated "mind" in this verse is the Hebrew word leb, and it means the "heart with its feelings," not the mind. The King James very often confuses heart with mind and mind with soul, as if they were one and the same thing even though there are different words for each.

God’s plan and purpose for humanity consists of many, many things which are not after God’s own heart, but that are, nonetheless, absolutely essential for the completion of His plan:

"Say unto them, As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" (Ezek. 33:11).

This is God’s HEART speaking in this verse. But in the MIND of God, the death of the wicked was absolutely necessary, and a prophesied fact that could not be avoided:

"For I will lay the land most desolate, and the pomp of her strength shall cease, and the mountains of Israel shall be desolate, that none shall pass through" (Ver. 28).

This is but another of countless examples in Scripture that show God’s mind and His heart. God takes no pleasure or delight in His heart over the horrible things that continually happen to humanity, but nonetheless, these things are absolutely essential to the fulfillment of the plan that God has devised in His mind.

It is absolute blasphemy to think or teach that God is the Creator of all that is, but then takes zero responsibility for all the evils of that creation—ALL is of God.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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dave

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Re: Are our thoughts really our thoughts ?
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2016, 04:16:37 PM »

Thank you Kat :)  I read and study Ray's papers almost daily, but my head just can't locate the help I need at certain times, there is so much.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 04:20:35 PM by micah7:9 »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Are our thoughts really our thoughts ?
« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2016, 04:26:40 PM »

I would suggest Micah that you not waste your time as you have no power to make this man see. The blind can only receive their sight by Jesus, THE physician.

That being said, to help you in YOUR understanding and add to kat's post, consider Pharoah. What was God's heart saying to him? 'Let my people go!' What was the mind and plan of God? Harden pharoah's heart so that he would resist His will and desire! Read romans again where paul by inspiration of God speaks of this very thing.

Remember, God's SPIRIT GARNISHED the heavens, but HIS HAND formed the crooked serpent, the waster to destroy who goes to and fro in the earth devouring the dust, that dragon, leviathan of the sea--Satan.

God's will and plan to accomplish that will can at times seem to us as almost contradictions but they are not. We must not lean on our own understanding for His ways are higher than ours as the heavens are to the earth.

Hope this helps some, ray talks in great detail about pharoah's ordeal. Even that of assyria, the club in His hand used to bring low His people and humble them. They did great destruction and evil but were nonetheless at the mercy of the Great God who used them to accomplish His purpose.

Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard his spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to evil because it is not of him who wills or does but of God who shows mercy.

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

dave

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Re: Are our thoughts really our thoughts ?
« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2016, 04:31:19 PM »

Thanks brother :) My friend is just hanging on to the " which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart."  as his stand. It is clear in my mind/heart and breath that my Lord and God is sovereign in all things. Thanks again
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