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Are our thoughts really our thoughts ?
Kat:
--- Quote from: Wittenberg on January 24, 2016, 08:02:15 PM ---Coveting is a thought. Is God only sovereign over physical sin, ie murder or theft?
Just a thought
--- End quote ---
Hi Wittenberg, well Jesus indicated that what is in our hearts - our thoughts, are just as important when it comes to sin.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
v. 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.
v. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man."
We have to learn to bring even our thoughts under control, Christ gave several specific examples of how thoughts can lead to sin.
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Mat 5:22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.
Now things may come to mind and these bad things that cross our minds is not sin in itself, no these are just temptation. But it's when we hold onto these thoughts and are drawn to it and desire the temptation, that's when it becomes a problem for us.
James 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
v. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
Matt 13:52 Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old."
Matt 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.
Jesus shows us that what is in the heart is of utmost importance to Him, because "For we know that the law is spiritual" (Rom 7:14) and we must learn to think/meditate on the spirit, "but to be spiritually minded is life and peace" (Rom 6:08).
Pro 4:23 Be careful how you think; your life is shaped by your thoughts. (GNB)
2Cor 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.
v. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
v. 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
v. 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.
1Ch 29:17 I know also, my God, that You test the heart and have pleasure in uprightness...
v. 18 ...keep this forever in the intent of the thoughts of the heart of Your people, and fix their heart toward You.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
rick:
--- Quote from: Dennis Vogel on January 24, 2016, 04:58:55 PM ---Dave said:
--- Quote ---The question was "are our thoughts really our thoughts". YES! YES, they are!
Are they 'caused'? YES! Yes, they are!
--- End quote ---
I've been attacked enough times to know that many evil thoughts are caused by external forces. I remind myself that the thought did not originate in me.
--- End quote ---
Hi Dennis,
Its interesting to me you mentioned outside forces , I've had many thoughts before where I said where did that come from ?
What's been on my mind is this cause thought, this may seem strange but God is doing a strange work.
We know , only God is good, so when I desire to do something good what ever it may be Im thinking God put that thought in me.
we also know God does not sin nor does God tempt anyone to sin , but because God created us spiritually weak we sin automatically.
God does not need Satan to get me to sin, that comes with ease. But how is it possible to sin unless we act upon some bad or evil thought ?
Ray said we process information, make choices and change our minds , so if all thoughts are caused as is all choices are caused what I wondering if every thought we have come from either God or Saran ?
God created Satan for a reason which is to tempt us , So my take is that our heads are in a way empty and God puts thoughts in our head and Satan puts thoughts in our head.
That is to me the experience of good and evil. Its these internal and external spiritual forces that give man his thoughts. They oringinat from God and from Satan, does that make sense ?
God bless.
cheekie3:
Rick -
I believe that our thoughts are our thoughts as they are in us and only the individual and Our Heavenly Father have knowledge of these thoughts.
I do not believe we originate our thoughts however, as these are all caused by causes outside of our control, put in place by Our Father.
One of my brothers once told me that Our Heavenly Father cannot read his thoughts.
I believe that the Scriptures teach that Our Father is Sovereign and is the ultimate cause of all things, as He created all things, and He causes all thoughts to come into our minds - otherwise He is not Sovereign.
If we do good, we know that this is of Our Father and is not of ourselves; and if we do evil, we know that He has prepared each one of our steps for us to walk in them.
We know that the end game is that we will ALL always be good and righteous with Our Father indwelling us.
As we learn and partake of the nine-fold Fruit of His Spirit, these Fruitful characteristics become a part of us - and the more He does this, the more we become like Him.
I believe the answer is Romans 9:16, as I understand that things start in our Hearts, before thoughts enter our Minds, and then into words and actions -
Romans 9 (YLT):
15 for to Moses He saith, `I will do kindness to whom I do kindness, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion;'
16 so, then -- not of him who is willing, nor of him who is running, but of God who is doing kindness:
17 for the Writing saith to Pharaoh -- `For this very thing I did raise thee up, that I might shew in thee My power, and that My name might be declared in all the land;'
18 so, then, to whom He willeth, He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth, He doth harden.
19 Thou wilt say, then, to me, `Why yet doth He find fault? for His counsel who hath resisted?'
20 nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form [it], Why me didst thou make thus?
21 hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?
22 And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on vessels of kindness, that He before prepared for glory, whom also He did call -- us --
24 not only out of Jews, but also out of nations,
25 as also in Hosea He saith, `I will call what [is] not My people -- My people; and her not beloved -- Beloved,
26 and it shall be -- in the place where it was said to them, Ye [are] not My people; there they shall be called sons of the living God.'
27 And Isaiah doth cry concerning Israel, `If the number of the sons of Israel may be as the sand of the sea, the remnant shall be saved;
28 for a matter He is finishing, and is cutting short in righteousness, because a matter cut short will the Lord do upon the land.
29 and according as Isaiah saith before, `Except the Lord of Sabaoth did leave to us a seed, as Sodom we had become, and as Gomorrah we had been made like.'
I still find it hard to accept that there are people in the world that rape, murder, fraud, steal, deceive and lie; and I know the difference if someone steals to feed his starving family or if they delight in taking what is not theirs or worse. As we are to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil according to His wisdom and plan for His creation, it is best to keep talking to Him about all things, as it is all about His judgements to mould us in His image through our own unique and personal interactions with others.
We should test all things and put them into the subjection of His Commandments; and this includes our thoughts. I like to plan as best I can, and to have clean and clear thoughts - and at times unexpected thoughts come into my mind and I have to address these before I act on them - and only by the Grace of God can anyone of us do the right thing. I know that my thoughts today are clearer and cleaner than in my younger days, and I keep telling the Lord that I want my heart's desire, thoughts, speech and actions to be pleasing to Him.
I hope this helps a little.
Kind Regards.
George.
Kat:
One thing I don't think is being taken into account, is that God gave us a brain... what I'm saying is that with our brain we use our senses to evaluate the world around us and process that information. That is what is so incredible about human beings, is that God gave us intellect to think, reason and make decisions. That all comes from how God designed and made us to have consciousness, that we are aware of the world around us and can interact with it.
But the brain is a carnal thing, you know we've had threads about ego, and the brain is all about self. Even seemingly good acts on our part are selfish. Ray spoke about how love is selfish in his marriage article, because we expect to be reciprocated for loving somebody. I think most things we do is with self preservation in mind... I suppose the least selfish reason to do something good would be because it makes us feel good, but even that comes about from our feelings.
So all the things we experience by sight, hearing, touch, taste and smell are things our brain takes in and then guides us to react to... that causes us to then think, reason and make a decision about it. But how does God fit in? Well I'll give an analogy, these comparisons seem to help sometimes. When a watchmaker makes all the intricate parts and carefully puts them together for a time piece, it's from a carefully calculated design. He knows what he is creating and how each part functions, all of it's components are made just for it's particular purpose and so when they are precisely aligned they will work together in a certain way to bring about the desired results. So is God's foreknowledge of this creation.
Pro 16:9 A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.
Think about this, God has design each of us to be exactly as we are and everything that happens is exactly as He intended and knew it would happen, He knows the end from the beginning. He does not need to whisper a thought in anybody's ear to do something good, He already created the components/us that react with exacting precision from the causes He knew would be in play around us. In His foreknowledge He has already seen everything preform exactly as He knew it would and now He is overseeing how every single event does actually play out.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'
v. 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.
Psa 33:11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart to all generations.
I'm not saying God never gets involved with His creation, there are plenty of cases in Scripture where He does, but that was His intention. He has made Himself known to us in various ways (Heb 1:1). For now human being are having a carnal existence to gain this experience of good and evil - life, and yes good can and does come from carnal people, it's just a selfish good. It is not until the Holy Spirit comes indwelling that we then begin to have a spiritual experience as well and God's righteousness is developed in us... the called/church only think they are spiritual, you don't know what spiritual is until you actually experience it.
Satan is thrown into the mix to serve as God's adversary, Satan and the demonic realm bring a whole other element of evil to this creation. They are unseen (maybe visible in hallucinations that they cause in the mind) and dreadful to those that encounter them. When you think about a lot of the unexplained seemingly supernatural events, I think most all can be attributed to the demonic realm.
So this is the sovereignty of God, it's impossible to fully realize all His capabilities, His power is truly unfathomable, but we can see it in what He is doing in this incredible creation.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.
It's a good thing that we can accept that all this creation is just as He meant it to be. And to think this knowledge has been hidden from the whole world, no matter how much they search and think on it and try to reason it out they cannot, only a privileged few are seeing these things.
1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
Eph 1:9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
Col 2:2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ,
v. 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
dave:
Excellent Kat! Excellent :)
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