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Are our thoughts really our thoughts ?
Porter:
Awesome discussion and very edifying.
It reminded me of what the Apostle Paul said once about this battle of the laws governing our wills that God created.
Rom 7:15 For I do not understand what I am doing, because I do not practice what I want to do, but I do what I hate.
Rom 7:16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 So now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is sin living in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.
Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me.
Rom 7:21 So I discover this principle: when I want to do good, evil is with me.
Rom 7:22 For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God's law.
Rom 7:23 But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body.
I think this illustrates both laws very nicely. I cant help but picture Jesus spiritually dragging Paul (and us) to God as his carnal mind fights tooth and nail to it's eventual death.
Rom 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin.
dave:
I have a friend and we are discussing the subject of free will. He insists that God cannot be the originator all because there are bad things being done that cannot be from a all sovereign God. My friend will always come back to his mainstay proof with this verse..... Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.
Now he believes that all will be saved and that "a hell of eternal torment" is a lie. He cannot accept that those who burned there sons and daughters could be the cause because... which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.
I told him I believe that is was not in His heart but it was in their heart. But he says it wasn't in HIS heart to do these things...so then they must have had free will.
I have gone several rounds with this discussion and it just keeps going around and around. Any help? Thanks
Kat:
Here is a excerpt from 'Twelve Truths to Understanding His Word,' it's not the exact verse you were speaking of, but has the same thought to it.
http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm ------------
A few years ago someone tried to trip me up with this verse:
"They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spoke it neither came it into My mind" (Jer. 19:5).
Here, I was told, is absolute proof that God learns new things that He didn’t know before. Nonsense.
This is a simple problem of translating. The word translated "mind" in this verse is the Hebrew word leb, and it means the "heart with its feelings," not the mind. The King James very often confuses heart with mind and mind with soul, as if they were one and the same thing even though there are different words for each.
God’s plan and purpose for humanity consists of many, many things which are not after God’s own heart, but that are, nonetheless, absolutely essential for the completion of His plan:
"Say unto them, As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" (Ezek. 33:11).
This is God’s HEART speaking in this verse. But in the MIND of God, the death of the wicked was absolutely necessary, and a prophesied fact that could not be avoided:
"For I will lay the land most desolate, and the pomp of her strength shall cease, and the mountains of Israel shall be desolate, that none shall pass through" (Ver. 28).
This is but another of countless examples in Scripture that show God’s mind and His heart. God takes no pleasure or delight in His heart over the horrible things that continually happen to humanity, but nonetheless, these things are absolutely essential to the fulfillment of the plan that God has devised in His mind.
It is absolute blasphemy to think or teach that God is the Creator of all that is, but then takes zero responsibility for all the evils of that creation—ALL is of God.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
dave:
Thank you Kat :) I read and study Ray's papers almost daily, but my head just can't locate the help I need at certain times, there is so much.
lilitalienboi16:
I would suggest Micah that you not waste your time as you have no power to make this man see. The blind can only receive their sight by Jesus, THE physician.
That being said, to help you in YOUR understanding and add to kat's post, consider Pharoah. What was God's heart saying to him? 'Let my people go!' What was the mind and plan of God? Harden pharoah's heart so that he would resist His will and desire! Read romans again where paul by inspiration of God speaks of this very thing.
Remember, God's SPIRIT GARNISHED the heavens, but HIS HAND formed the crooked serpent, the waster to destroy who goes to and fro in the earth devouring the dust, that dragon, leviathan of the sea--Satan.
God's will and plan to accomplish that will can at times seem to us as almost contradictions but they are not. We must not lean on our own understanding for His ways are higher than ours as the heavens are to the earth.
Hope this helps some, ray talks in great detail about pharoah's ordeal. Even that of assyria, the club in His hand used to bring low His people and humble them. They did great destruction and evil but were nonetheless at the mercy of the Great God who used them to accomplish His purpose.
Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard his spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to evil because it is not of him who wills or does but of God who shows mercy.
God bless,
Alex
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