Prayer

[Jeff]

Hi Jeff,
I'm sure God's will shall be done in your life, as well as all the rest of us.
How would it change things if he told you that you would live another 25 years or even longer?

Joel

Joel,

I was thinking about this today.  I prayed for Gods will in me, and then I thought, "His will is already in me."  Every moment, of every day, Gods will is done.  There's never been, nor will be, a moment that Gods will has not been done.  Whenever I pray for Gods will, I'm too late - it's already accomplished - long before He created me.  I changed my prayer to "Thank you".

Jeff

[Jeff]

Hello Jeff i think Kat is spot on,

Hi Jeff, just wanted to mention something that might encourage you. It seems that God in preparing us by bringing us through certain trials that gives us the experience He will need us to have... each one with their own set of difficulties, making us into what He wants us to be. So I think that though you may be experiencing some great difficulty God is certainly with you to get you through it "...God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able..." (1 Cor 10:13). And just think, you will be uniquely qualified to help with that in the next age

15 years ago because of thyroid problems my body shut down i was so sick i can't tell you, i went from a bull to an old man over night,i would pray for God to take me every night and wake up in the morning and sit on the side of the bed and cry knowing i had to face another day,so after a few yrs. can't really remember how long, i started thinking where the teaching of hell come from and ended up here BT,i read 6 to 8 hrs. a day for months non stop, i think God put me where i needed to be at that time and with all that has happened i'm so thankful now,i'm not the same person i was,i've learned love,i love my wife as i never knew how before,i text my girls often and tell them i love them and to tell my grandboys i love them and to hug them for me,i under stand pain and suffering better now,it breaks my heart to see people hurting now,i feel CJ's pain,Judy's pain, i feel your pain,i pray for Alex,this wasn't me a few yrs. ago,my daughter ask her mom awhile back,whats going on with dad he's never had this kind of affection, she told her hes different now, thank God for that, i've got a long way to go i know, but now i don't want to die,i want to live ,i want to love,to me love is everything,i don't know you or CJ or Judy never met Alex or any one else here,but i can tell you this, i love you all,being sick has helped me to understand others pain and suffering,i'm still sick but not like before, i think it helps keep me humble,i know now i'm where God wants me to be for now,i think most of us are hurting one way or the other, but it will make us strong later,hang in there Brother God will see you through,i know because he said he would,you can take that to the bank.
Terry

I'm learning the truth of this brother. It's always been this way, it just took me 3/4 of a lifetime to begin to understand.  Actually, it's worse than that - I've understood much for a long time but I forget and then God does something to get my attention.

There's a story about a mule:

"...The neighbor came right away.  When he heard the problem, he walked over and picked up a two-by-four.  He hit the mule right in the head.  Then he whispered in the mule's ear.  That mule started plowing back and forth the field, turning the soil over without anyone standing behind the plow.

"I thought you said never to mistreat your mulee," stated the farmer.  "You said all that I had to do was to talk nicely to him."

"Well," answered the neighbor.  "You just have to get his attention first before talking to him."

[octoberose]

Thank you for this discussion. Thank you for its humility and surrender and kindness. I am so glad I am not alone. The very thing and hurts my heart every day drives me to pray constantly, and I am grateful.
  Jeff, you are in my prayers too. Judy, Extol, Alex, Ches, Kat, Terry and all- we truly are in this family together.

[Jeff]

Thank you for this discussion. Thank you for its humility and surrender and kindness. I am so glad I am not alone. The very thing and hurts my heart every day drives me to pray constantly, and I am grateful.
  Jeff, you are in my prayers too. Judy, Extol, Alex, Ches, Kat, Terry and all- we truly are in this family together.

Rose,

You are certainly not alone.  The Spirit of God connects us all and enables us to be family.  And I'm so appreciate because that's all I've ever wanted - is family.

During this time of thanksgiving (which we know has no "season"!) I'm thankful too for this forum, for Gods leading - in Ray's teaching - and being blessed through instruction, repentance, and forgiveness by the grace of God.

Exodus 35:31 "And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;..."

Romans 6:11 "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

We're alive and blessed!

Romans 14 "5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.  6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself."

[judy]

Jeff, still thinking and praying for you everyday. judy

[Jeff]

Jeff, still thinking and praying for you everyday. judy

Thank you Judy. You made my day!

[Colin]

Hello everyone
For a while I have been focusing on the first ten verses of Galatians 6....I had felt "directed" towards them and wondered why.  As this thread has progressed, I am convinced that my attention had been drawn to those verses in preparation to reading what members were yet to post. 

Let me share what I uncovered in, and understand from, the words which Paul was inspired to write: 

Gal 6:1  Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

The Greek word translated "fault" is paraptoma (Strong's G3900) and means a falling or slipping aside, when one should have stood upright; a lapse or deviation.   

Paul continues by telling those who are "spiritual" (or non-carnal) to "restore" such person.   The Greek word is katartizo and means "mend", "arrange in order", "adjust".     It is used in Matthew 4:21 (mending nets) 1Cor.1:10 (perfectly joined together) Hebrews 11:3 (prepared, "framed").   And the manner in which we are to do it is with a spirit of meekness, because all of us are liable to be (or have been) in similar positions or condition....to varying degrees.
What I have been noting in this thread is folk assisting/encouraging those who have courageously described their feelings of inadequacy and frailty.   

Gal 6:2  Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

I found described here another aspect of how we fulfil the law of Christ.....it is in bearing [Greek bastazo] i.e. figuratively lifting by enduring, sustaining, receiving - one another's loads.....what we are "burdened with".     Paul goes on to say, to do it without considering we are "superior", because if we do that, then we'd be kidding ourselves. 
Gal 6:3  For [because]  if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth [deludes] himself.
Gal 6:4  But let every man prove [test, approve]  his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
Gal 6:5  For [because] every man shall bear his own burden.
Verses 2, 3, 4 and 5 are all connected with "joining words".  They are all expressing Paul's "single thought".
Paul is combining the idea of bearing/sharing burdens, saying that we ALL have such burdens, as we progress through life.
Gal 6:6  Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

The forum is a blessing where we can "communicate" – those who have been taught by God through Ray can communicate to those who are ''new-comers" the truths of "good things".
As an encouragement, Paul concludes his thoughts on the struggle under the loads we each have.....(not forgetting Ephesians 6:12)
Gal 6:9  And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due [Greek idios = one's own] season we shall reap, if we faint not.
Our attitude should be to provide assistance and do good to ALL folk, where we have the occasion to do so......
Gal 6:10  As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
I took particular notice of where Paul summarises (note the word therefore) and finishes his sentence by saying ESPECIALLY where we can do it for those of the household of faith.....that includes us; the forum is an avenue that is provided to us, so we can do that.    What a wonderful opportunity.... Just as important to remember is that we are training to "do" - for the rest of humanity in the age yet ahead.....we are all "teachers in waiting".   It isn't only "all for our benefit".... Christ didn't do what He did merely for His own benefit - it was for us; so, to let His mind be in (become part of) us, we do our best by taking on the same commission to fulfil the law of Christ (verse 2).....bearing and sharing our burdens.....being mindful of Jesus' words:-

Mat 11:28  Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29  Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30  For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. 

Paul also wrote  1Co 10:13  There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

We are all on the Potter's wheel.....but can have confidence that The Master Potter knows exactly what He is doing       Colin

[Jeff]

Hello everyone
For a while I have been focusing on the first ten verses of Galatians 6....I had felt "directed" towards them and wondered why.  As this thread has progressed, I am convinced that my attention had been drawn to those verses in preparation to reading what members were yet to post. 

Let me share what I uncovered in, and understand from, the words which Paul was inspired to write: 

Gal 6:1  Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

The Greek word translated "fault" is paraptoma (Strong's G3900) and means a falling or slipping aside, when one should have stood upright; a lapse or deviation.   

Paul continues by telling those who are "spiritual" (or non-carnal) to "restore" such person.   The Greek word is katartizo and means "mend", "arrange in order", "adjust".     It is used in Matthew 4:21 (mending nets) 1Cor.1:10 (perfectly joined together) Hebrews 11:3 (prepared, "framed").   And the manner in which we are to do it is with a spirit of meekness, because all of us are liable to be (or have been) in similar positions or condition....to varying degrees.
What I have been noting in this thread is folk assisting/encouraging those who have courageously described their feelings of inadequacy and frailty.   

Gal 6:2  Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

I found described here another aspect of how we fulfil the law of Christ.....it is in bearing [Greek bastazo] i.e. figuratively lifting by enduring, sustaining, receiving - one another's loads.....what we are "burdened with".     Paul goes on to say, to do it without considering we are "superior", because if we do that, then we'd be kidding ourselves. 
Gal 6:3  For [because]  if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth [deludes] himself.
Gal 6:4  But let every man prove [test, approve]  his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
Gal 6:5  For [because] every man shall bear his own burden.
Verses 2, 3, 4 and 5 are all connected with "joining words".  They are all expressing Paul's "single thought".
Paul is combining the idea of bearing/sharing burdens, saying that we ALL have such burdens, as we progress through life.
Gal 6:6  Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

The forum is a blessing where we can "communicate" – those who have been taught by God through Ray can communicate to those who are ''new-comers" the truths of "good things".
As an encouragement, Paul concludes his thoughts on the struggle under the loads we each have.....(not forgetting Ephesians 6:12)
Gal 6:9  And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due [Greek idios = one's own] season we shall reap, if we faint not.
Our attitude should be to provide assistance and do good to ALL folk, where we have the occasion to do so......
Gal 6:10  As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
I took particular notice of where Paul summarises (note the word therefore) and finishes his sentence by saying ESPECIALLY where we can do it for those of the household of faith.....that includes us; the forum is an avenue that is provided to us, so we can do that.    What a wonderful opportunity.... Just as important to remember is that we are training to "do" - for the rest of humanity in the age yet ahead.....we are all "teachers in waiting".   It isn't only "all for our benefit".... Christ didn't do what He did merely for His own benefit - it was for us; so, to let His mind be in (become part of) us, we do our best by taking on the same commission to fulfil the law of Christ (verse 2).....bearing and sharing our burdens.....being mindful of Jesus' words:-

Mat 11:28  Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29  Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30  For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. 

Paul also wrote  1Co 10:13  There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

We are all on the Potter's wheel.....but can have confidence that The Master Potter knows exactly what He is doing       Colin

Colin,

If I understand what you've written, it's that this forum is a place for fellowship, and I believe that's true.  When I'm searching for answers to something, I find references to forum conversations abundantly, in addition to Ray's writings.  Everyone here is intent on knowing Gods Truth. 

One of the things that amazes me, is that nowhere else, can I find even the slightest bit of Truth.  It's just not there.  Obviously I can't go to a minister, pastor, reverend, or preacher and expect to find honest guidance in the Word of God.  Using the most powerful search engine on the planet I can barely find anything that comes close to the Truth.  This is a place of profound uniqueness and if another like it exists, I haven't found it - and I've been searching for years in the hope that God is leading others to His Truth.

Ray spent years on his knees, in his heart, pleading with God to reveal the Scriptures to him, and God answered those prayers.  And we're the benefactors! Everyone guided by God, who finds this place of refuge, is nourished by the Truth of God. It's astounding!  That doesn't express my feelings very well but it will have to do.

I don't understand why God led me here, but I thank Him for doing it, and recognize that I don't need to know why. 

It must be 10 years now since I found Ray's writings, and it's still the only place that I can commune with like-minded believers.  Where else could I possibly go?  I think that has "great and profound" spiritual meaning, and it humbles me.

God has blessed us, through Ray's teachings, but there are many that come and leave without ever understanding.

It seriously blows me away when I think about it.

Also, related to this thread, I think I've realized that sometimes the trials we face, are lifelong.

Jeff

[Deblyn]

I am truly sorrow for your anguish. I have a painful physical disability that is my "thorn in the flesh".  I used to pray for healing, but since it hasn't come, I thank Him for allowing me to be of use while here. And yes, there are some times when I say, "Please stop the planet, Lord, I want to get off!"  But, deep down, I'm glad He hasn't seen fit to grant it, yet. His grace truly is sufficient.

[Jeff]

I am truly sorrow for your anguish. I have a painful physical disability that is my "thorn in the flesh".  I used to pray for healing, but since it hasn't come, I thank Him for allowing me to be of use while here. And yes, there are some times when I say, "Please stop the planet, Lord, I want to get off!"  But, deep down, I'm glad He hasn't seen fit to grant it, yet. His grace truly is sufficient.

Deblyn,

I pray with all my heart that the God of creation will bless you abundantly, with grace, faith, and the fruit of the Spirit.  I pray that He will reveal Himself to you, and provide you with enduring inner strength.  I also pray for your healing - physically, emotionally, and spiritually, according to His perfect will.  You are a gift to all that experience the person you were created you to be.  It's a work unfinished, but Gods grace sustains us.

Isaiah 41:10 "So do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous right hand."

John 14:27 "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."

One of my favorites that reminds me how precious we are to God:

Psalm 149:14 "I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well."

This isn't Scripture, although I think it's reflected - to be compassionate requires the need for compassion.  We can't know what compassion is until we've had the need for it.  I think Jesus' willingness to do the Fathers will and die for us is the perfect example.

God bless you Deblyn.

[Deblyn]

Thank-you, and the Lord bless you, too!

[Jeff]

Hi Jeff,

The other day I was listening to the 2007 conference and Ray was talking about patience...how we as humans always want to be somewhere we're not, or be in a better situation than we are in. We want to be out of debt NOW, we want to get a raise NOW, we want our children to be well-mannered NOW, rather than working towards these things.

The debt example was a good one for me. I've been able to pay off a good chunk of our debt this year, and I have been looking forward to when it is all paid off. It is a nice goal to have, but the problem is when I think too much about it and plan too far ahead, I get impatient. I just want the debt gone NOW. I may plan to have all my debts paid in, say, 18 months, but the fact is, I have no idea what our situation will be then. I might lose my job, we might have an expensive family emergency, etc. The only thing I can do is take it one day at a time, one week at a time, one month at a time, and pay what God allows me to pay, and thank Him for it...hopefully while learning patience and lessons about financial responsibility.

You mentioned that verse about praying ceaselessly in 1 Thessalonians 5. Have you been doing the two things sandwiched around that? Verse 16: Rejoice evermore. Verse 18: In every thing give thanks.

We always tend to think of thanksgiving as giving thanks for the good things, but we need to give thanks in EVERY thing. I need to thank God for my debts (and other problems), and you need to thank God for the thorn in your side. And in the midst of your suffering, I hope you can Rejoice in the knowledge that it will not always be there. 

Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;
  To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine.
  Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he is our help and shield.
  For our heart shall rejoice in him, because we have trusted in his holy name.
  Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.

Psalm 33:18-22.

Hi All,

Assuming that I'm talking about real prayer - in God's eyes...

Ray taught John 6:44 (and another verse John 12:32 where it's even more emphatic) with regard to the word "draw" - (as is translated in the KJV) but first written in the Scriptures as (GK helkō), where Ray, inspired by God, chose to use the word "drag" when writing about certain topics.

Ray uses the word drag when he taught about "repentance, forgiveness, knowing Christ, faith, understanding the Truth", and I believe everything under the sun.  Truly, all things Spirit.

I was thinking about this very thing with regard to prayer for a while now but haven't come up with anything in my search of this site.

Are we ever "dragged" to prayer?  Has Ray taught this?  Ray mentioned somewhere (in an audio) that he would get excited when he felt compelled to pray, because it meant that God wanted to show him something.  It certainly would mean that Ray was drawn (even caused or at least open) to understanding the Truth and the experience he was given - but it's hard to imagine Ray needing to be dragged to anything, regarding God's Truth.

My goal is to better understand this - when I "feel" the urge to pray - is God doing that (is there Scripture to support that)?  Is it possible that my urge to pray is coming from my lack of patience, understanding, or my self-centered nature?. I suspect that the answer to this is easily understood.

Does anyone know, if in Ray's teaching, he's mentioned God's leading us to prayer (dragging us to pray?)

Again, that seems an obvious yes, but I'm wrong a lot.

Happy "spending quality time with those you love and some who you may only marginally tolerate".  I really do hope you're all enjoying this time of year with whatever pleasant things the Lord brings to you.

[Kat]

Hi Jeff, that is a thought provoking question. At first I could not found where Ray spoke on this directly, but then I found where this is covered indirectly.  God is sovereign... this falls right in there with no free will at all, so yes even with our prayers they too are caused.

But our circumstances can vary greatly, causing each of us to have our own individual situation, therefore our prayers, though caused I would say are personalized to us. How we pray, what we pray for, is an individual thing and is developed in us according to God's will.

You were saying Ray used the word of us being "dragged" to Christ, and I have seen where that is true for some, but again I think this is an individual thing. I didn't feel dragged, certainly drawn, but I was so fed up with religion and the church, I welcomed these truths with open arms. I mean I'm just saying I believe that all of our experiences are distinct to each of us, as to what God is working in us.

Anyway here is a place that I feel covers the idea you was wondering about... "God's leading us to prayer."

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html ---------------------

Here is a blanket statement of Scripture that proves Jesus did no more have a "free will" than anyone else does:

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, but what He sees the Father do: for what things so ever He does, these also does the Son likewise" (John 5:19).

Do you know of one Scripture that contradicts this verse in John 5:19? If you don't then you must admit that Jesus could not do anything by a supposed "free will" which is said to have the ability to act independently of God.

But wait, there's more:

Jesus plainly had a will, but the Father willed that Jesus would bring His will into line with that of His Father. The Father would not allow Jesus to give up the good fight of faith. It pleased God to bruise His Son for our salvation,

"Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief: When you shall make His soul an offering for sin..." (Isa. 53:10).

God said that He would "make" the soul of Jesus an offering for sin. God doing the "making" is the CAUSE. Therefore, Jesus was not free to run from the cross. God inspired Jesus [caused] Him to pray. And God caused Jesus to pray that His Father's will, would be done, not His Own will. It was a real battle for a few hours. The will of Jesus cried out for another way other than to drink the cup and go to the cross. Hour after hour He poured out His heart to His Father. And hour after hour His Father propped Him up so that He would not and could not give in to His flesh.

God MADE Jesus go through that spiritual battle of His will, but never for a second was the plan of God in jeopardy! God had clearly prophesied the positive outcome of this battle hundreds of years before its actual occurrence. And absolutely nothing in the history of the universe has ever thwarted God's plan, purpose or intention.

The Father inspired [caused, made] Jesus state time after time, "Not My will but Thine, Not My will but Thine, NOT MY WILL BUT THINE"!!

It was the very words of His Father that Jesus prayed. Those words that came out of the mouth of Jesus first came out of the heart of His Father, and God's Words never ever return to Him void.

"So shall My word be that goes forth out of My mouth [and into the mouth of Jesus]: it shall NOT RETURN UNTO ME [as when Jesus prayed back those same words to His Father] VOID, but it SHALL ACCOMPLISH that which I please, and IT SHALL PROSPER in the thing whereto I sent it" (Isa. 55:11).

As I have said a hundred times to my detractors, your argument is not with me, but with God and His Word.

I will show you from Scripture that the thoughts, words, works, and deeds of Jesus were only those things that came directly from His Father, not from some phantom "free will" of His own.

And so the very words that Jesus prayed that night in the garden were the very words of His Father, and the words of His Father of the purpose for which they were sent. But then again, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

When there is a conflict between wills regarding the bringing about of that which pleases God, whose will is it that will always win out? Is it possible for man's will to thwart the will and intention of God? Does man possess such a God-defying power? Can man with his illusionary free will, will against and contrary to the predetermined plan and intention of God Almighty? No! No, he can't. And yes, we do have a Scripture on that:

"For it is GOD which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

When our very own Lord cried out in agony to His Father because His flesh did not want to go through the crucifixion necessary because of the sin of the world, whose will prevailed?

"And He said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto you; take away this cup from Me: nevertheless not what I will, but what YOU WILL"

And He comes and finds them sleeping..."

"And again He went away and prayed, and spoke the same words. And when He returned, He found them asleep again..."

"And He comes the third time..." (Mark 14:36-41).

Now then, what was the outcome of this heart-wrenching prayer and request of our Lord to His Father? Was the will of our Lord free to override the will of His Father? Or did not Jesus recognize that it was His Father's will that would prevail and that His will was not free to think or do contrary to His Father's intentions? Answer:

"And he came the third time, and said unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour IS COME; behold, the Son of man is betrayed [is being betrayed] into the hands of sinners... and when they had crucified Him..." (Mark 14:41 & 15:24).

Clearly: It "pleased" God to crucify Jesus, and it was God Who "worked in His Son both TO WILL and TO DO of His Father's good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
v
The very second that something causes one's will to do something that the person himself had not planned by an uncaused will or a will that was not influenced in any way, he ceases to have a free will. A will made to think or do anything is not free, and it is senseless to argue anything to the contrary. There is not a Scripture in the bible that presents us with a person willing something or making a choice for which there was no cause. And "caused" wills and "caused" choices are not free.
v
When God's time came to release Israel from bondage, we read this:


"And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage. And God heard their groaning, and God remembered His covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob. And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them" (Ex. 2:23-25).

And just what "caused" Israel to "cry unto God?" Their own free will? No. "Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried..." There is always a cause, but it is never man's fabled free will.
v

God and the Scriptures allow no place for any reality of man having his OWN WILL that is FREE from the sovereignty of God's operations of all.

No, it was "the hand of the LORD" that caused Israel to first say they would obey and later decide to not obey. It was "the hand of the LORD" that caused Joseph's brothers to hate him, sell him into slavery, and then later to bow down to him. It was "the hand of the LORD" that put Samson and the Philistine woman together, but as with these and hundreds of more dealings by "the hand of the Lord" mentioned in Scripture, they "KNEW NOT THAT IT WAS OF THE LORD."

Do you "know NOT" that
all that you have said and done today, "was OF THE LORD?"
Most of humanity is born, lives, does evil and good, then dies, and "KNEW NOT THAT IT WAS OF THE LORD."

In Part C of this series, I will show you a statement where God Himself tells us that when He uses someone for His purpose, the one being used thinks that he himself is planning and carrying out the desires of his own heart and is making the choices of his own will; whereas God tells us that it is HE and not the one being used that is in totally control of everything, and that the one being used is totally unaware that he is being used like an inanimate object that doesn't even have a brain!

Yes, God tells us that this is how He operates in ALL THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH! A few have been aware of God's operation of all, down through the centuries; most however, have not. I will share these Scriptures with you next time. Robots? Nay, we are but clay (albeit 'fearfully and wonderfully made' clay, Psalm 139:14) in the hands of the Master Potter.
------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Jeff]

Kat,

Yes, that's perfect.  If nothing we do is of our own will, then obviously prayer has to fall in under that too.  God tells us to pray.

When I read what you posted of Ray's teaching I found something that's never crossed my mind before:

Jesus prayed to His Father to take away what Jesus knew was coming.  It would seem that God wanted Jesus to pray for God to change His mind and allow Jesus to avoid the suffering He knew He faced.  I've always - only - thought that it was the human weakness in Jesus that caused Him to ask for something He knew He would never receive.  He had to have known that God never changes His mind but He prayed for it anyway.  It had to have been for our benefit that He did that.

Psalm 25:4 "Shew me thy ways, O LORD; teach me thy paths"

It may be that Jesus' humanity had a part in what He was asking for, I would think He was afraid, but in the end it was God who drew Jesus to pray for it anyway.

Thanks Kat.

[lilitalienboi16]

Kat,

Yes, that's perfect.  If nothing we do is of our own will, then obviously prayer has to fall in under that too.  God tells us to pray.

When I read what you posted of Ray's teaching I found something that's never crossed my mind before:

Jesus prayed to His Father to take away what Jesus knew was coming.  It would seem that God wanted Jesus to pray for God to change His mind and allow Jesus to avoid the suffering He knew He faced.  I've always - only - thought that it was the human weakness in Jesus that caused Him to ask for something He knew He would never receive.  He had to have known that God never changes His mind but He prayed for it anyway.  It had to have been for our benefit that He did that.

Psalm 25:4 "Shew me thy ways, O LORD; teach me thy paths"

It may be that Jesus' humanity had a part in what He was asking for, I would think He was afraid, but in the end it was God who drew Jesus to pray for it anyway.

Thanks Kat.

Yes, Jesus prayed out loud and not for His own sake but for our sake.

John 11:41-43
41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

God bless,
Alex

[Kat]

Kat,

Yes, that's perfect.  If nothing we do is of our own will, then obviously prayer has to fall in under that too.  God tells us to pray.

When I read what you posted of Ray's teaching I found something that's never crossed my mind before:

Jesus prayed to His Father to take away what Jesus knew was coming.  It would seem that God wanted Jesus to pray for God to change His mind and allow Jesus to avoid the suffering He knew He faced.  I've always - only - thought that it was the human weakness in Jesus that caused Him to ask for something He knew He would never receive.  He had to have known that God never changes His mind but He prayed for it anyway.  It had to have been for our benefit that He did that.

Psalm 25:4 "Shew me thy ways, O LORD; teach me thy paths"

It may be that Jesus' humanity had a part in what He was asking for, I would think He was afraid, but in the end it was God who drew Jesus to pray for it anyway.

Thanks Kat.

Jeff, I think His prayers in the garden was for the very reason you stated, "for our benefit." If Jesus had not made that request that showed that the crucifixion was going to be a horrible ordeal for Him, that He knew His suffering would be excruciating, then I feel certain there would be people who would say that what He went through was no big deal for God in the flesh. But we have proof right from Him, He was so nervous that He was sweating profusely and we have His prayers in the garden that He knew it would be so hard that He even asked "if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me" (Matt 26:39).

Yes the Father caused this to happen, so we would know with absolute certainty, and so that no person could ever say, 'well God does not suffer like regular people do.' We know His flesh suffered just like ours, we know He went through all that He did because He wanted us to know just how far our God would go for us... suffer just as much as any of us has and to the point His body actually died!  And not a fast easy death either, but a slow tortuous one... but He willingly went through it for us!

Heb 4:14  Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone to heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us live our lives consistent with our confession of faith.
v. 15  For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses. Instead, we have one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet he never sinned. (ISV)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[judy]

Hi Jeff, haven't been on here for awhile, thinking of you and refreshing my memory of what's been going on. As I was reading over this thread something came to mind. God doesn't change nor does He change His mind BUT He has HELD OFF for awhile until he gets us in the correct frame of mind and His timing for what it is we are to do or die trying to figure it all out, nothing is forever, maybe heaven.  Remember when the people asked Jesus, "why only one wife NOW when all along men were  able to have more than one" this is not verbatim by the way. I can't find my way around a chicken coop but I seem to remember all that I have read. ANYWAY, Jesus answered, YOU WERE NOT ABLE TO ACCEPT IT THEN. So, I figure there is a time for healing and suffering and joy and sadness but all in His time. The trick (of the mind) is to believe nothing and i mean nothing lasts in this world, maybe those taxes and death but there is hope. What would you do with clarity and peace all the time? I mean at this time, believe me, this would really blow your mind unless you have studied and learned here what to do with it. Suffering is like schooltime, some of us graduate before death and see clearly (sort of) but without the knowledge of God you would most likely screw it up. I did!!! Got God, found peace and joy, screwed it up royally, suffered, died so many times figuratively, etc. Just thinking of you. judy

[Jeff]

Hi Jeff, haven't been on here for awhile, thinking of you and refreshing my memory of what's been going on. As I was reading over this thread something came to mind. God doesn't change nor does He change His mind BUT He has HELD OFF for awhile until he gets us in the correct frame of mind and His timing for what it is we are to do or die trying to figure it all out, nothing is forever, maybe heaven.  Remember when the people asked Jesus, "why only one wife NOW when all along men were  able to have more than one" this is not verbatim by the way. I can't find my way around a chicken coop but I seem to remember all that I have read. ANYWAY, Jesus answered, YOU WERE NOT ABLE TO ACCEPT IT THEN. So, I figure there is a time for healing and suffering and joy and sadness but all in His time. The trick (of the mind) is to believe nothing and i mean nothing lasts in this world, maybe those taxes and death but there is hope. What would you do with clarity and peace all the time? I mean at this time, believe me, this would really blow your mind unless you have studied and learned here what to do with it. Suffering is like schooltime, some of us graduate before death and see clearly (sort of) but without the knowledge of God you would most likely screw it up. I did!!! Got God, found peace and joy, screwed it up royally, suffered, died so many times figuratively, etc. Just thinking of you. judy

Judy,

Thank you for writing this.  The timing was impeccable, which causes me to consider that God was involved. It seems silly to say that because God is always involved, but when you wrote this, at that moment in time, it was perfect, and had special meaning to me. 

Jeff