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[dave]

Who spoke in Num. 23:19?

Just trying to find out if God changes His mind lies, and  or/repents?

[Wittenberg]

Balaam said the word(s) the Lord gave him. Unless I'm missing something

[dave]

Balaam said the word(s) the Lord gave him. Unless I'm missing something

I like that.

"God is no liar......" This I also believe, I believe the repent in Gen.6 as to to sigh, that is, breathe strongly; by implication to be sorry, that is, (in a favorable sense) to pity, console, but I do not believe He changed anything.

I was discussing this subject with folks who believe God changed his mind where as I stand by Mal 3:6  For I, Jehovah, change/alter not; therefore ye, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.
They say that He changed His mind[repented] with Nineveh and with Hezekiah among others. I do not.

That is why I ask. Thanks.

I know somewhere Ray wrote on this.

[indianabob]

Hi Micah,

God knows the end from the beginning.
Or to think of it another way.
God know mankind and mankind's mind so well that God can know what we will do in any set of circumstances.
To think of it yet another way God can influence mankind to do what God wants.
God can put a thought in your mind in such a way that you think it is your own.
God can alter circumstances so that we will be caused to do as God wants. Cause and effect.
Think of how God dealt with Jonah when HE sent Jonah to Nineveh and Jonah ran away.
Recall how the Lord Jesus dealt with Saul when Saul was seeking believers to persecute.
God reserves to Himself full authority and sovereign power over circumstances. God's will shall be carried out.

Indiana Bob

[Extol]

Balaam said the word(s) the Lord gave him. Unless I'm missing something

I like that.

"God is no liar......" This I also believe, I believe the repent in Gen.6 as to to sigh, that is, breathe strongly; by implication to be sorry, that is, (in a favorable sense) to pity, console, but I do not believe He changed anything.

I was discussing this subject with folks who believe God changed his mind where as I stand by Mal 3:6  For I, Jehovah, change/alter not; therefore ye, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.
They say that He changed His mind[repented] with Nineveh and with Hezekiah among others. I do not.

That is why I ask. Thanks.

I know somewhere Ray wrote on this.

This is from Ray's Bible study DOES A SOVEREIGN GOD EVER CHANGE?

Since this guy mentioned Hezekiah in the email, I want to mention it here. So he says, ‘Well what about Hezekiah. He changed His mind there.' He said he was going to die and then he said okay I change My mind you’re not going to die, I’m going to give you fifteen more years. Well if you state it that way just like I did here, then it sounds like God changed His mind. Let’s read it, if all else fails let’s read it.

2 Kings 20:1  In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus said the LORD, Set thine house in order; for thou shall die, and not live.
v. 2  Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the LORD,

Now notice that He didn’t set any conditions here. But again the sum of God word is true.  What did we read in Malachi? “Return unto me and I will return unto you.” But that sounds like that could be a contradiction of ‘God doesn’t change.’ God knew whether they would return unto Him, because He knows the end form the beginning. Can’t you see how damnable these doctrines are?

If you say you can change the mind of God, then you are saying that God doesn’t know what he’s doing. He doesn’t know how to do it right the first time and there are all kinds of options open and sometimes the worse ones happen rather than the best ones. Because man and his free will doesn’t do what would bring about a better solution to man’s problems and all that.  It’s all nonsense. He already knows the end from the beginning. “But who believes our report” like Isaiah says. Who believes the word of God? Well not many.

2 Kings 20:3  I beseech thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in Your sight.  And Hezekiah wept sore.
v. 4  And it came to pass, before Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying,
v. 5  Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of My people, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shall go up unto the house of the LORD.
v. 6  And I will add unto thy days fifteen years;

Here’s what we fail to understand, we don’t believe that the sum of God’s word is Truth like it says in the Psalms.

Psa 119:160 The sum of Your word is truth…

We don’t believe the Scripture that says God knows the end from the beginning.

Isa 46:10  declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure;

We don’t believe it when it says, God does not change.

Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD, I change not;

We don’t believe it when it says, God is not a man that He should lie nor repent.

Num 23:19  God is not a man, that He should lie;  neither the son of man, that He should repent:

We don’t believe any of those Scriptures, that’s why we come up with things like, ‘well God told him he was going to die, but then he prayed to Him and God just said okay I change My mind and in fact I’ll give you 15 more years. God never changed His mind! He knew that Hezekiah would pray to Him and He knew that He would then tell him I’ll give you fifteen more years. He already knew that, He didn’t change His mind, He knew that this is the only way that this scenario is going. Because He knows the end from the beginning. From the beginnning He already knows what the end is. He already knows that Hezekiah is going to fall on his face and beg for forgiveness from Him and then He will say okay. He didn’t change His mind.


And regarding Ninevah...


  DID GOD CHANGE HIS MIND,
                        HENCE LIED ABOUT DESTROYING NINEVEH

Jonah 1:1  Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,
v. 2  Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.

Nineveh was wicked just like the world was back there in Noah’s time.  He said go and speak against that city “for their wickedness is come up before Me.”  But Jonah rose up and fled into Tarshish, he wanted to see what Paul was doing.

Jonah 1:3  But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish:

So he found a ship and it’s going someplace.  But they are having problems on the ship and they said somebody must be doing something wrong.  They draw lots to see and it fail on Jonah and they say this guy is a trouble maker.  So they threw him overboard.

Jonah 1:7  And they said every one to his fellow, Come, and let us cast lots, that we may know for whose cause this evil is upon us. So they cast lots, and the lot fell upon Jonah.
Jonah 1:15  So they took up Jonah, and cast him forth into the sea: and the sea ceased from her raging.

So God caused a great fish to come along and swallowed up Jonah.

Jonah 1:17  Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Then Jonah prayed to God, ‘woe is me I’m down in the belly of sheol and I’m wrapped up in all this mucky muck, it’s horrible and dark.  He said hear my voice and I will sacrifice and all that.

Jonah 2:1  Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
v. 2  And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD…

Jonah 2:10  And the LORD spoke unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.

Jonah 3:1  And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying,

It was the same thing He said to him the first time and He’s saying are you ready now Jonah.  He said ‘I’m ready.’

v. 2  Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching (Strong’s - a proclamation) that I bid thee.
v. 3  So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey.
v. 4  And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

Now with this we need to have a little understanding here.  You might say, ‘well I don’t care if the word repent is not the right word, if God said Nineveh is going to be overthrown and He didn’t overthrow it, then He lied.’  But the Scriptures say God does not lie and He can not lie.  So what are we going to do now?  You say, ‘well He changed His mind, He didn’t lie, He said one thing but He can change His mind.’  But just like we have a Scripture that says He doesn’t lie, we have one that says He doesn’t repent or change His mind.  In fact we have both of those in the same verse.

Num 23:19  God is not a man, that he should (1) lie; neither the son of man, that he should (2) repent:

It’s all in the same verse.  So we have that verse twice in the Bible.

1 Samuel 15:29  And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for He is not a man, that He should repent.

He doesn’t lie, He doesn’t repent.  So if He says in forty day Nineveh is going to be overthrown, and in forty days it is not overthrown, then God lied, right?  No, we just need a little understanding, I’ll see if I can give you a little understanding here.

Remember with Moses God said something.  He said, ‘Moses “leave Me alone” then I’ll get angry and then I’ll destroy them.’  But there was a condition there “leave Me alone.”  But Moses did not leave Him alone, so that condition was never met.  Of course God knew it wouldn’t be, God never intended to destroy all of Israel at that time. 

Now here we have something, I saw it right away.  There is no way Jonah went day after day after day after day and said, yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown… forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown… forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown… over there did you hear me, yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown…     And he did that day after day and that is all he said, those eight words?  I mean that is just one short statement.  Now notice what it says. 

Jon 3:2  Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.

“The preaching,” there was more to it.  It’s just a short book, it’s not quite two pages.  So it does not go into a lot of detail.  But this preaching, in the Hebrew is a proclamation.  I’ll give you an example of a real proclamation:

2 Ch 30:5-9  So they established a decree to [make proclamation throughout all Israel… Ye children of Israel, turn again unto the LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, and He will return to the remnant of you (just like we have in Malachi 3:7)… And be not ye like your fathers…  Now be ye not stiffnecked, as your fathers, but yield yourselves unto the LORD, and enter into His sanctuary… and serve the LORD your God, that the fierceness of His wrath may turn away from you.
For if ye turn again unto the LORD, your brethren and your children shall find compassion before them that lead them captive…  for the LORD your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away His face from you, if ye return unto Him.

Now there is a proclamation where God is going to destroy somebody, right.  Now He told Jonah to give a proclamation.  Don’t we see that He told them, some place in that proclamation, why that city was going to be overthrown in forty days?  Of course he did.  You say, ‘well He didn’t warn anybody back there when He said He was going to destroy the earth or part of the land, that He repented of.’  Well what do you think Noah did for the next hundred years while he was building the ark?   Well I don’t know if he built the ark for the whole one hundred years or one hundred and twenty or more until that flood came.  Of course he was warning them that this was coming and they needed to repent and everything.  But they didn’t.  Well guess what?  God didn’t grant them repentance.  You read in the second chapter of Romans;

Rom 2:4  Or despises you the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

You can’t repent unless God leads you to it.  But they say, ‘oh yea, we have free will.’  You can’t tack on these pagan doctrines and understand the Scriptures.  No you don’t have free will.  You have a will, but it’s not free from causality.  You can’t do anything that doesn’t have a cause behind it.  Nothing happens in nature without a cause. 

You can’t think a thought unless something happens in you brain… something happens in your subconscious… something happens in this room… in the world… in your stomach.  Then you make a decision, ‘I think I’ll make a sandwich.’  Why?  ‘Because I have this little hungry and I thought about a sandwich.’  Was there something that caused you to think of that?  ‘Oh yea.’ 

But if you tell a man that he has free will, that’s where nothing causes him to think what he thinks.  It just comes out of the blue, where ever the blue is.  If it doesn’t have a cause, it doesn’t happen.  So if you think thoughts, they have causes or there wouldn’t be any thoughts.  When you say something or do something there was a cause behind it.  Once something was caused to happen, it can’t not happen.  You can’t unring a bell, okay. 

[Question: God wants to feel sorry for us?]   Sorry, remorseful, angry all of those things.  [So He wants us to carry that baggage around?]  No, not forever.  You see you can’t repent of your sins profoundly and deeply unless you have those feelings. 

Like I’ve said so many times, even when something is not a horrible sin, but maybe a weakness or something you should do or whatever.  It’s amazing, but most people don’t ever really do profound things casually. 

People don’t get up and say, ‘you know I’ve been smoking for thirty years and you know what, I think I’ll quit today.  Yea I think I’ll quit.  Okay I quit.’  Most people don’t quit that casually, they think about it for a long time.  Some people quit smoking when there doctor says, ‘your lungs are so black and you are fifty one years old, if you don’t quit smoking you won’t reach fifty three.’  Then guess what?  They go home and they think about what the doctor said and they quit.  They did that by their own free will?  The fact that the doctor said, ‘if you don’t you will die’ had nothing to do with it?  The fact that cigarettes are now seventeen dollars and eighteen cents a pack has nothing to do with it?  The fact that your wife won’t kiss you any more or that you burned three holes in a thousand dollar sofa has nothing to do with it?  There are reasons why you do and think and so on. 

So Jonah said more than… ‘yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown, did you hear me?  I said forty days.’  He preached the preaching and what did that all involve?  We don’t know, but we do know one thing, it involved a lot of things.  Starting with the king we read;

Jonah 3:5  So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
v. 6  For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
Jonah 3:9  Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from His fierce anger, that we perish not?

They were hoping, they didn’t know if this repentance was going to be enough, their sins were pretty bad.  They said, ‘we have put on sackcloth and sprinkled a few ashes, is that enough?  Maybe we should sprinkle some more ashes and pray, is everybody praying.  Pray your hearts out and maybe we will get God to change His mind.’ 

It’s interesting even in the King James here they have a little superior one by repent and you go to the margin and guess what it says, relent.  That’s a little different than repent.  That’s a little different then I’m going to change my mind from what I was going to do.  At least it is closer than repent.

Jonah 3:10  And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented…

Or relented,  as the margin says or more accurately had pity.  You say, ‘I don’t know, your just interpreting that Ray, I think He changed His mind.’  I’m going to show you that what He did was, He had pity.  I’m going to prove to you that what that word means there is pity. 

He had pity on the people back in the days of Noah, He didn’t show the pity, but He had it.  It says where He grieved.  Where did He grieve in Genesis 6:6?  “And it grieved him at His heart.”   He was grieved, that means to feel sorrow in His heart, but He didn’t show it.   It was there but He didn’t show it to the people, He had to do what He had to do.

But here where it says “and God repented” we are going to see that it means that He showed pity.  He didn’t change His mind.  Jonah obviously told them of their sins and of their ways and that it was wrong and if they didn’t change that God would destroy them in forty days.  Well they DID change and because they changed, God saw there works that they turned from there evil ways and God had pity on them.  He pitied them.

Jonah 3:10  …and God repented (showed pity) of the evil, that He had said that He would do unto them; and He did it not.

Why?  Because of the proclamation, the preaching.  How many verses did we read, return unto Me and I will return unto you.  He’s not going to change His mind or repent that He made the wrong choice and now He’s going to change from that wrong choice.  No, He’s going to do what He knew he was going to do from the beginning.  If you do that, which He knows you will do it, then He’s going to grant you repentance. 

How did He grant them repentance?  I don’t know, but He did.  He granted them repentance, they had the heart to repent and so He showed pity on them.

But it displeased Jonah, because he feels like a fool now.  He had said that the city was going to be destroyed and now he says, ‘I know You are always that way God, You say one thing and then You do something else.  Now I feel like a fool’ 

Jon 4:1  But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry.
v. 2  And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray Thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that Thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repented Thee of the evil.

He just didn’t do it.  It was nothing about changing His mind.  He felt sorry and He didn’t do it.  Why?  Because the conditions were met.  “And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way.”  Obviously Jonah taught that in this preaching, this proclamation of preaching the proclamation. 

v. 3  Therefore now, O LORD, take, I beseech Thee, my life from me; for it is better for me to die than to live.
v. 4  Then said the LORD, Doest thou well to be angry?
v. 5  So Jonah went out of the city, and sat on the east side of the city, and there made him a booth, and sat under it in the shadow, till he might see what would become of the city.

Jonah is still kind of distrusting Him, he said, ‘I said the city was going to fall, so now is it going to fall?’  Well God saw what they did, maybe Jonah didn’t see all that they did.

v. 6  And the LORD God prepared a gourd, and made it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a shadow over his head, to deliver him from his grief. So Jonah was exceeding glad of the gourd.
v. 7  But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered.
v. 8  And it came to pass, when the sun did arise, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted, and wished in himself to die, and said, It is better for me to die than to live.
v. 9  And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death.

Jonah said, ‘kill me I don’t care.’  Now let’s get down to the gist of this thing.

v. 10  Then said the LORD, you hast had pity (Strong’s #2347) on the gourd, for the which you hast not labored, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:
v. 11  And should not I spare (pity, Strong’s #2347) Nineveh…
 
That word is the same word that is translated pity.  When it says, “you hast had pity on the gourd” that Hebrew word is the same Hebrew word, “should not I spare Nineveh.”  It could be spare, that is not a totally wrong word, the point is they chose to translate it pity in verse 10 and it should be pity in verse 11 too, so you can see the consistency. 

God said to Jonah, ‘you had pity on the gourd for crying out loud and you’re all upset because God had pity on a whole city of tens and thousands of people.’ 

That was His repentance, can you see it?  What did He do?  When they repented and showed their works and turned from their evil ways, what did God do?  Did He repent and say, ‘oh I made a mistake I should have never said that, I was wrong I repent, I won’t destroy them like I said and by the way I’m a liar too.’  No, what did He repent of, what was His repentance?  “And should not I PITY them.”  He PITIED Nineveh.

v. 11 …that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

So there it is, I hope you can see it.  There is more than one definition of a word sometimes.  You know we use the word repent for a sinner who has done wrong and he is suppose to feel shame and guilt and turn and repent and go the other way.  But God doesn’t do that!  God never repents, not in that meaning of the word. 

But He does feel.  How does He feel?  He has pity on humanity, which fears Him, a great God.  He has no pleasure whatsoever in the death of the wicked.  He doesn’t say therefore there will never be death of the wicked.  No, there will be death of the wicked.  But He doesn’t get any pleasure out of that.  We’re talking about the heart of God now. 

So this whole thing here is to show how humanity is so screwed up, that somebody for their own personal comfort or vanity, would sooner have that vanity appeased, then to save a whole city or a whole nation. 

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7714.0.html

[Dave in Tenn]

Thanks for that, Extol.  Again, great timing for what I needed regardless of the form of the question.

[dave]

Thanks Extol for finding that, it was a refreshing refresher and I just didn't look hard enough.

[Joel]

Jeremiah 18 is also a good witness to the truths that Ray taught concerning God and repentance.

Joel

[indianabob]

Thanks all for shedding more light on a good question.
I-bob