Been reading all the contributions to this subject maybe three or four times because things bothering me , not only on this subject , but I feel this is a bit of a general problem and that is I feel that we do quote individual versus just a little to easy and also out of context. I know what Ray had to say about context ,context ,context and I agree with him however don't throw context completely away ,in fact Ray used context to prove that Satan is not the subject of Isaiah 14:12 as the whole chapter is about the king of Babylon. The same for Ez 28 .
An example is in this case is Mike (it could have been me )who quotes 1Cor 5:1-13 but in a haphazard way -so that I have to ask what is he trying to say? This part of Scripture has nothing to do with fellowshipping ,it has to do with judging.Paul tells the Corinthians that they (the assembly ) must judge within (the assembly) and if one is found to be a fornicator he must be banned from the assembly.God will judge those without (the assembly )-Vs 5 "to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus".And vs 13 says it all , some judgement is the responsibility of the assembly and some is God's responsibility. "But them that are without (the assembly) God judgeth. Therefore put away from yourselves that wicked person " The words in brackets are mine to make reading easy.
Jeff says he hasn't got anybody to fellowship with- no man, you must be keeping the wrong company. Being a believer in universal salvation does not save you. Being a true believer in Jesus Christ as your saviour through the mercy of the Father and the working of the Holy Spirit in you makes you a believer and overcomer and then you are an elect as your tongue and your works will witness of this.There are certainly true believers in a lot of institutions that have not heard about universal salvation and howcome are you unable to fellowship with those? Sometime or other in the process of fellowshipping the subject of universal salvation will come up and you will find an eager ear (not always) and it helps if you come across people who have experienced a "falling away ". Remember fellowshipping is rejoicing in the Lord together and not arguing about doctrines. Granted, probably not everyone has the gift to do this in a way so as not to upset the other person , but you can place your trust in the Spirit to lead you at the right time with the right words. I cannot accept being a believing "dummy".
You will notice I am not quoting a lot of Scripture -- the reason being that I accept members of this forum to know enough of Scripture to understand the simple things I am writing about.
God bless
Wim
In other words, if you don't agree with me you don't know the scriptures.
This is a post from Kat and a post I shared which I believe will be beneficial to all regarding this current discussion as it tackles the issue of our assembling together and God's kingdom.
The Kingdom of HeavenApril 4, 2015 at 12:40pm
Here is a brief study from excerpts in articles and emails concerning heaven.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2772.0.html ---
God lives in a different "realm" from us. If we must use physical analogies, I suppose we could say that we live in the physical subject to death; whereas God lives in the spirit and never dies. We live in a world of wickedness; whereas God lives in a world of righteousness. We live in darkness; whereas God lives in light.God's elect are making the transition and transformation from evil to good; from physical to spiritual; for darkness to light.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4138.0.html -----
The "Kingdom of God" also known as the "Kingdom of the heavenS," is God's domain, where He resides. To the degree that we have God's Spirit is the degree to which we reside in this Kingdom. At present we are merely begotten, awaiting a new birth into His Kingdom. This Kingdom has no end after the physical has passed away. Etc.
http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html ------------------------------
SEA, EARTH, AND HEAVEN
There are three realms spoken of in Revelation: sea, earth, and heaven:
"And the angel which I saw stand upon the SEA and upon the EARTH lifted up his hand to HEAVEN, and swore by Him that lives for ever and ever, [for the eons of the eons], who created HEAVEN, and the things that therein are, and the EARTH, and the things that therein are, and the SEA, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer [no longer a time of delay]" (Rev. 10:5-6).
The angels [messengers] of God communicate things from heaven to both the earth and the sea:
"And the voice which I heard from heaven spoke unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the ANGEL which stands upon the sea and upon the earth" (Rev. 10:08).
There are three realms of humanity and three realms of spiritual understanding. The lowest of all is the sea. Those with at least some spiritual understanding are those who dwell in the earth. And those who have the very mind of Christ are those who dwell in heaven. ALL REALMS will give honor and glory to God:
"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, [need I explain that ‘fish’ do not have the mental capacity to comprehend what is being taught here—these are MEN, MANKIND, HUMANITY] and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and upon the Lamb for the eons of the eons" (Rev. 5:13).
Is this not saying the identical thing that Paul teaches in Phil. 2:10-11:
"That at the name of Jesus every knee should BOW, of things [them] in heaven, and things [them] in earth, and things [them] under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
More proof:
"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and [inhabitants] of the sea! …" (Rev. 12:12).
Next notice that:
"And when the dragon saw that he was cast into the earth , he persecuted the WOMAN [the Church] which brought forth the man child [the manifest sons of God]" (Rev. 12:13).
Where is the Church? Does she dwell in the spiritual realms of heaven? No. Is she located in the sea? No. She dwells in the earth. She is higher than the sea, but lower than heaven; she dwells in the earth. These are the three realms spoken of in Revelation. If we can’t get our thinking above the symbols themselves, we will never ever understand the book of Revelation.
The saints have left the earth in their spiritual walk with God. Those who are now ‘spiritually-minded;’ dwell in heaven—a much much higher realm than that of the earth.
http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html -------------------------
GOD’S HEAVEN IS HIGHER THAN MAN’S HEAVEN
Satan is the god of this world (I Cor. 4:4). Satan possesses ALL the kingdoms of the world (Matt. 4:8-9). Satan appears to the heads of his nations as an angel of light (I Cor. 11:12). It was Satan who appealed to the heaven of Eve’s mind. It was Satan that caused the people to build a tower that would reach MAN’S concept of heaven. The heaven of the minds of those conceiving of such lofty things. It was Satan who caused the king of Babylon to be lifted up in his own heaven, his own mind. Listen to his own words:
"At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon. The king spake, and said, is not this GREAT BABYLON, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of MY power, and for the honour of MY MAJESTY?"vGod has a heaven. It is a SPIRIT REALM. It is where God lives and has His Being. Men too have a heaven. It is likewise, the REALM where they live and have their being—they spiritually live in their own minds, their own heavens.
Notice Prov. 23:7, "For as he THINKS in his heart, SO IS HE." The ‘heart’ is the innermost seat of our deepest emotions, but it is accessed through the MIND. It is what one thinks that determines what one is. When the king of Babylon THOUGHT that he had ascended into heaven in his mind, then that is where HE WAS, "so IS he." But ... BUT, it was man’s heaven and not God’s. No ‘man,’ no ‘carnal man’ has ever ascended into God’s heaven of spirit,
(See also Matthew 12:34 "O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." and Luke 6:45 "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh." -- Think of what the king of babylon said out of his mouth and see where his heart was!)
"And NO MAN has ascended up to heaven [God’s heaven], but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN [right at the very time He was speaking these words]" (John 3:13).
Jesus could live "on earth" and "in heaven" at the same time! But carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time. Man’s heaven is a place of spiritual delusion; whereas God’s heaven is a place of spiritual enlightenment.
"And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the EARTH [of man] and the HEAVEN [of man] fled away; and there was found NO PLACE FOR THEM… And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a NEW heaven and a NEW earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." (Rev. 20:11, 16 & 21:1).
It would be mind-boggling enough to think that the entire UNIVERSE could "flee away," but it would be quite another to then suggest that, "there was found NO PLACE FOR THEM." That would be absurd if taken literally. ALL THESE THINGS ARE SPIRITUAL! In the white throne judgment there will be no more a place for the flesh, for the carnal mind, for man’s heaven. There will truly be no place found for them. They will be annihilated in God’s "CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29 & I Cor. 3:15)!
God will give man a new earth and a new heaven, and as for the great sea of carnal, God-defying humanity, "…and there was NO MORE SEA."
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1696.0.html ---
I've come under more frequent spiritual attack. I know within my heart that I must stand strong in the Lord and know that nothing can hurt me unless it is His will. But I am very immature in my spirituality and it's very difficult to deal with these things at times.
Dear Bill:
"Put on the whole armour of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God...." (Eph. 6:1-17).
I don't know what else to tell you. We all do battle against this spiritual realm.
http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html ---------------------------------
In Hebrews 10:25 were are admonished as follows:
"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as you see the day approaching."
That this is speaking of believers congregating together to worship and study God’s Word, there can be no doubt. However, there is a much deeper meaning to this "assembling" that few have ever seen. I never saw it myself until I read a paper by J. Preston Eby, entitled: "FORSAKE NOT THE ASSEMBLING."
I will quote an excerpt or two from his paper:
"The Greek word for ‘assembling’ is EPISUNAGOGE. The word, literally, is a verb meaning to synagogue. It is a compound of the Greek prefix EPI with the word SUNAGOGE from which we get our transliterated English word Synagogue. EPI means super – imposition – that which is above, higher than, highest, upon. SUNAGOGE means a meeting, assembly, or gathering. Putting these two words together, EPI-SUNAGOGE means THE ABOVE SYNAGOGUE, THE HIGHER MEETING, THE HIGHEST ASSEMBLY, THE HIGHER-THAN-ALL-GATHERINGS!
It bespeaks of something far greater than merely collecting so many breathing bodies together in one place.
It is a meeting in a higher realm, on a higher plane, in the high places of the Spirit, and in the heights of Truth. It is a gathering together in a dimension above. It indicates an assembling IN THE SPIRIT…"
(All Caps belong to Mr. Eby).
This Greek word episunagoge is used only one other time in Scripture, and that is in II Thes. 2:1:
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together [Gk: episunagoge] unto Him."
In Hebrews 10 we are admonished to "assemble" in an high meeting, a meeting in the SPIRIT! In II Thes. 2 this meeting in the Spirit will become a literal meeting with our Lord.
And so, back to our question once more: Which denomination should we join? Where should we go to Church? Where should we "forsake not the assembling of ourselves together?" In a physical building of some physical denomination? No. WE are to episunagoge (assemble) on a higher plane, in a higher realm, in a spiritual assembly, IN THE SPIRIT!
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So how do we relate to 'heaven' now in our lives... as Ray shows in Scripture Prov. 23:7, "For as he THINKS in his heart, SO IS HE." It is what one thinks that determines what one is. We need to seek that high realm as much as possible... I believe study (private and with others), meditate and pray is how we do that.
John 14:2 In My Father's house (3614) are many mansions (3438); if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
G3614 house - properly residence (abstractly), but usually (concretely) an abode (literally or figuratively); by implication a family (especially domestics): - home, house (-hold).
G3438 mansions - a staying, that is, residence (the act or the place): - abode, mansion.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home (3438) with him.
2Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house (3614) of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house (3614) not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. v. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house (3613) which is from heaven: v. 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
G3613 house - a residence (literally or figuratively): - habitation, house.
What I'm trying to show is all these words in the Scripture "house," "home," "mansions" all mean the same thing, it's talking about our body that holds the spirit of life. You can see in 2 Cor. Paul calls our physical body an "earthly house."
Now God's house/abode is the Kingdom of God/Heaven - the spiritual realm. In John 14:23 Jesus said He and the Father would "make Our home with him," this is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that a chosen few receive in this lifetime... heaven comes to those few now.
Luke 17:20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; v. 21 nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."
John 6:56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
So in John 14:2 when Jesus said "I go to prepare a place for you," isn't that actually when the Holy Spirit/Christ comes to dwell in and begin preparing the Elect, getting those few ready for the first resurrection? I certainly think so.
John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
mercy, peace and loveKat
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Yea this stuff was always such a spiritual treasure chest. Loved it, thanks for putting it all together kat!
Let me add this verse that came to mind which makes me think of what Christ said about us being with Him:
Ephesians 2:5-7 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."
Yes, He is indeed preparing a place for us. Now in part but soon in full!
1 John 2:28 "And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming."
1 John 3:2-3 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."
1 Corinthians 13:12 "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
As ray said; "To the degree that we have God's Spirit is the degree to which we reside in this Kingdom. At present we are merely begotten, awaiting a new birth into His Kingdom."
I think he absolutely nailed it!
God bless,
Alex
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I remembered this conference about 'What Is The Gospel Of The Kingdom?'... when I was searching for this topic goggle advanced search usually does not pick up the transcripts. This article is so full of good stuff, but here is a few excerpts from it.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.0.html ----------
WHAT IS THE KINGDOM LIKE ?
But I want to clear up this thing with the kingdom of God is ‘like.’It’s like a king…it’s like a laborer… it’s like a treasure… it’s like leaven… it’s like a fishnet cast into the sea. What is all that? What are all those parables saying the kingdom of God is? What is all of this it’s like, it’s like, it’s like, etc.? It’s like there are many called, but few chosen! That is what every parable is. That’s what the parables are or some form of that. Who would have ever thought.
You have the mustard seed? It’s something that is very small and grows into something very strong.
1Cor. 1:26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
The nobodies - the nothings - the mustard seeds. That’s what God calls us. But they grow.
Christ is the King who is gone into a far nation. To do what? What does the parable say, what is He going to get there? A kingdom!
Where is Christ now? He is in heaven. But what is He doing on the earth? He’s getting Himself a kingdom. It started with the Apostles - the few. He said to ‘you’ it’s given to understand, you are the few. But to ‘them’ - the many, it is not given, but to the few. Many called - a lot of seeds scattered around, but only some seeds fall on the good ground, the few.
If you cast the net into the sea and you pull in all these fish. But you throw a lot of them away, because only a few are the good ones that you save. That’s what the parable are all about... all of them. God choosing out the few for His kingdom. The kingdom of God is like this, it’s like that, it’s like, it’s like… it’s like US and what God is doing through us.
Rev 5:10 And You made US kings and priests to our God, and WE will reign over the earth.
WE are the kingdom! You are going to have to do a little rethinking in your minds here maybe. We are the kingdom.
Rev 2:26 And he who overcomes (that’s us) and keeps My works (that should be us) to the end, to him (that’s us) I will give power over the nations.v
Mark 1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe the gospel."
Mark says the kingdom of God is at hand, now that should tell us something. The kingdom of God was at hand. Well then His Apostles went out after Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection and they taught the kingdom of God is at hand. Then the second generation of church leaders taught the kingdom of God is at hand. Here I am are sitting before you today and I am telling you the kingdom of God is at hand. How is it at hand? It is at hand for you!
“Repent, and believe the gospel." It’s at hand for YOU! It’s at your hand right now, for you! It wasn’t at your hand before you were born. If some of you die this week or next month or next year or whatever, it won’t be at hand for you then. The kingdom of God is at hand NOW. When you hear this message, that’s when it is at hand for you. This is God telling you, repent the kingdom of God is at hand, right now, while you are sitting there, right now it’s at hand.
How is it at hand? Because Jesus Christ is, was and He will be! It is at hand for us now. It was at hand for them when it was preached back then. It will be at hand if there is generations beyond us, before our Lord returns. v
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waits…
This whole world, this whole creation is groaning and travailing in pain. Is waiting for what?
Rom 8:19 …for the manifestation of the sons of God.
That’s us, the sons of God or the kingdom of God. They are the heavens in which the Spirit of God dwells and will rule the nations.
Obadiah 1:21 And saviors shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mountain of Esau (this is them); and the kingdom shall be the Lord’s.
The “saviors” are going to rule from mount Zion, not over there in that ugly swill of a city called Jerusalem. But from spiritual mount Zion. He is going to rule them, "Esau" is them, "and the kingdom shall be the Lord’s." What kingdom? The kingdom of what, in this context? Kingdom of saviors, plural saviors. Who are these saviors? That’s us, we’re saviors. Well this sounds a little odd, I mean we’re saying we’re going to be the saviors of the world. Well we do have a leader though, King of kings, Lord of lords, Savior of saviors and Son of sons. We’re sons right, He’s the Son of the sons. He will always have a name superior to every other one.v
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them and upon the Israel of God.
1Peter 2:9 …so that you might speak of the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
So the kingdom of God is what? The Israel of God! It’s those who through the faith of Abraham… that is the same faith that God gave to Abraham He gives to us, that’s the faith of Abraham. We become this peculiar, special people to God.
Now get this. Here's what He said we are. He said I will have a nation and I will have a people and it didn’t happen... but it was a type, a shadow of something that will happen.
The writer of Hebrews tells us that there is an "Israel of God," those who are baptized in the Spirit, circumcised in the Spirit and they are now spiritual Israel - Jews. They are the real Jews, the ones that are converted in heart and mind and spirit. Then Peter comes right out and says, you are that royal family, that special people, that kingdom of priests, that holy nation, that’s what you are.
So what is it? It’s the gospel of the kingdom. What is the kingdom? YOU - WE are the kingdom! How about that. We are the kingdom. It’s the gospel, the good news of the kingdom. When you are spiritually converted and you are holy and you are circumcised in spirit and mind and soul and heart you are a spiritual Jew. You are the one that He said back there, I’m going to make you a holy nation, Israel... but not that Israel, that was a type. That was a shadow, that was only going to be a nation of people living in a certain land.
This kingdom is going to what? Bless all the nations. This is a big kingdom and it’s a spiritual kingdom, because the more we do away with the flesh, the more spiritual we get. The more we die to the flesh, the more we grow to the spirit.
So it’s not as negative as it seems when you get old and decrepit like me. The flesh is dying, but hopefully the spirit is growing. Where as I use to be dead in my spirit and soar in my flesh, now I’m almost dead in my flesh and soaring in my spirit. That’s good, that’s the way it should be. Do you see that in your life? You should see the flesh dying. v
So what is the kingdom? We are the kingdom of God... we are the kingdom of the heavens. Where does God reside? In heaven. God resides in heaven, but it is not called the kingdom of heaven in the Greek, you can check Rotherham and all those, it’s kingdom of the heavens, plural. We are the temple of God... God resides in His temple... God resides in heaven. We are the heaven in which God resides, where He dwells. But don’t get to haughty, because the Scriptures say, not even all the heaven of the heavens can contain Him.
2Chron 6:18 …Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built!
But never the less it is true, He does dwell in the heavens. But they can’t even contain Him, He’s bigger than that. But He does dwell in His heavens, we are His heavens, we are His spiritual kingdom. But it does not yet appear what we shall be, we only have the earnest, down payment of His spirit.
Eph 1:14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of His glory.
We have the down payment, but John says we will eventually see Him as He is, because we will be like Him. We will be like Jesus Christ!
1John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
So we are the kingdom of God. Christ is going to return with a kingdom... what does He return with? What is the symbolism of how Christ returns? He returns on... what is He riding? A white horse. Is anybody with Him? An army! Are they walking? They are riding on white horses too!
Rev 19:14 And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
What is that army? The kingdom of God... IT'S US! We are coming with Him, He is going to gather US up. Gather up what? His army, His kingdom! v
Psalms 119:165 Great peace have they who love Your law (and we know that God‘s Law is spiritual), and nothing (not anything) shall offend them.
If you are living by God’s Law, you can’t be offended. You will only pity the poor slob who tries to put you down. If you are not offended, truly not offended, you will be a king who will bring judgment to that person one day. Then they will learn to be humble like you.
So God has great things in store for the few, the called, the chosen, the humble. The ones that are like little children, just wanting to do the will of their Father.
Kings - lords - priests - a royal nation - a peculiar people - a special people to God. It’s all at hand, that how close it is, it’s at hand.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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John 4:23-24
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
2 Corinthians 6:13-17
13 Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
God bless,
Alex