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1 Cor 15:51
Mike Gagne:
Yes Dave,
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth
Matthew 22:13 (KJV)
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Luke 13:28 (KJV)
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Kat:
Dave, the brunt this conversation has been about God's wrath in the next age, it has always been my opinion that the first resurrection was immediately upon Christ's return. So I never even thought that the elect would be under God's wrath for a minute, because their entering the kingdom means their judgment is finished and they are perfected. That was the distinguishing factor to me, the first resurrection, and I assumed that was understood - the elect being with Christ eliminated them from wrath, so I neglected to explain that in my posts.
There are a number of Scripture that indicate that God's wrath will be on the "wicked," from either the church or the world. If it speaks of His wrath in the OT, than I would think it could not be speaking of Babylon.
Job 21:30 For the wicked are reserved for the day of doom; They shall be brought out on the day of wrath.
Nah 1:2 God is jealous, and the LORD avenges; The LORD avenges and is furious. The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies;
Rom 2:8 But to those who indeed disobeying the truth out of self-seeking, and obeying unrighteousness, will be anger and wrath,
v. 9 tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man who has worked out evil; of the Jew first, and also of the Greek.
Rom 12:19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
Pro 11:20 Those of crooked heart are an abomination to the LORD, but those of blameless ways are His delight.
v. 21 Be assured, an evil person will not go unpunished, but the offspring of the righteous will be delivered.
v. 22 Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a beautiful woman without discretion.
v. 23 The desire of the righteous ends only in good; the expectation of the wicked in wrath.
Psa 110:5 The Lord at Your right hand shall strike through kings in the day of His wrath.
Anyway I'm not just trying to win an argument here, as I've studied these Scripture how can I deny what they say?
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Dave in Tenn:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on March 10, 2016, 03:42:54 PM ---I just want to point out for the readers that nowhere in the last quote from Ray does he mention "wrath". Elsewhere he drew a distinct line of separation between WRATH/INDIGNATION and REBUKE/CHASTENING. Let's not be guilty of equating the two.
I certainly agree that Chastening can be light to severe. But I don't think that Ray taught that "severe chastening"=wrath. Instead, he went to great pains to disassociate the two. I may be wrong about that, but I'll have to be shown.
--- End quote ---
Alright. No need to look it up, I found it myself. So here's repentance #37 or 69 or whatever. Ray taught that the 'difference' between chastening/correction and indignation/wrath is the both the manner in which God delivers them AND the attitude of those receiving them. Now, this makes perfect sense in explaining why the chosen of God are not appointed unto wrath.
--- Quote --- To me, "escaping wrath" or "being saved from wrath" applies to the elect. What is it about "the chosen" that "entitles" them to salvation from "Wrath"? Because they have come out of Her. That's the way to escape--not judgement, not correction, not chastening--not even scourging--but wrath. Isn't "wrath" reserved for the Great Whore, the Kings that ride her, and the peoples drunk on "the wine of her fornication"? That's been my understanding for eight years. Again, if that is not what Ray taught, I'll have to be shown. That's not the world at large. That's the "many called" from which we have been drawn. Even here, "wrath" may be light, moderate or heavy in the way it is experienced. Regardless, my enemies are not flesh and blood. I don't think the rules will change then either.
--- End quote ---
True enough that being saved from wrath applies to the elect. But not true that "wrath/indignation" is reserved exclusively for the Great Whore, the kings that ride her, and the peoples drunk on the wine of her fornication. So there's repentance # God-only-knows.
God only knows how many are left.
Jeff:
--- Quote from: Kat on March 08, 2016, 10:38:39 PM ---
--- Quote from: Jeff on March 08, 2016, 07:17:00 PM ---Does eonian chastisement mean that we'll be rebuked and reprimanded for an entire age?
I suppose it could be a short age.
After this life I think I'd rather just sleep for eternity than go from 50, 60, 70 years of torment and endure an eon of additional horror.
--- End quote ---
Jeff, if you are speaking of the judgment on the world in the next age, it is clear that God is a just and fair and will chasten everybody individually according to how they lived. If a person has good works they will even be rewarded.
1Cor 3:13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
v. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
v. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
So it's not just going to be eon of horrors at all... if you think about it all of the patriarchs and prophets will be raised physical in the next age, even John the Baptist. They have already proven their faith and obedience in God and certainly will not be tormented in judgment, they just need to know the gospel message of Christ Jesus. And there will be lots of babies and children resurrected in the next age as well, they certainly will not need harsh correction either... but the opposite extreme is there will be those that are reprobates that will only understand a very strong arm of correction. All "will learn righteousness" (Isa 26:9), it will just require a great variance of how God will bring that ."
"Justice" is translated from the Hebrew mishpat and it means according to Dr. Strong: 'a verdict-favorable or unfavorable.' And our dictionaries add to this: "a quality of being just; fairness." So "justice" is "just and fair" (interestingly John Hagee teaches that an eternity of torture in a literal hell of literal fire is "JUSTICE," and Dr. James Kennedy teaches that hell is "FAIR").
NO, an eternity of torture in fire is not "justice," nor is it "fair," as these two great pillars of heresy contend.
The word "Judge" in this verse is from the Heb: shaphat and means according to Dr. Strong: "judge, to pronounce sentence-to vindicate or punish."
It is clear that they are very similar. God the Judge will, "do JUSTICE," or will "Judge justly," or as King James translates it "do right." And not surprisingly, the New Testament tells us the very same thing:
"Because He [God] has appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness..." (Acts 17:31).
Notice that Jesus will [1] judge, [2] the world, [3] in righteousness.
Next let's read one of my favorite verses (Isaiah 26:9):
"When Thy [1] judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants [2] of the world [3] will learn righteousness."
What a marvelous spiritual match. When Jesus Judges the world in righteousness, the world will "learn righteousness."
Ironically, the first time we find the words "justice and judgment" in the Bible is in the very same verse:
"For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him" (Gen. 18:19).
Here we learn that doing "justice and judgment" brings the blessings of God.
Will Jesus and God His Father do the "right" and just thing when it comes to judging this world? Certainly. In the Old Testament we read that God does not change (Mal. 3:6); God the Father does not change (James 1:17); Jesus Christ does not change (Heb. 13:08). Use your God-given minds for a moment and consider the insanity of infinite punishment for finite sins, and the same punishment for both gross and minor sins.
"But the fearful [Gk: timid], and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Rev. 21:08).
Does anyone in their right mind believe that murderers and timid people should be sentenced to the same "eternity of punishment?" Why even most heathen governments match the punishment to fit the nature and degree of a crime. But most Christian theology does not have even the good sense of some pagans.
Even when "many stripes" were administered (even among wicked men), they were to be limited to 40 lashes: Deut. 25:3; Lk 12:47; Acts 16;23; II Cor. 11:24.
To "judge" means to set right, whether it is in chastening or sentencing. "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right"-that is to judge justly so as to bring about change.
"When Thy [God's] judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world [everyone] will learn righteousness" (Isaiah 26:9).
------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Thank you Kat. :). In spite of the knowledge Ive been given, I still struggle with doubts and fear. Not fear that God is not just, or true, or faithful, and never-changing, it's something in me. It's easy enough to remind myself of the Truth, but I think it's just part of who I am. I know that God will change me when He does.
I tried to edit to reduce the quoting but tablets are mostly useless.
Jeff
Jeff:
--- Quote ---Dave, the brunt this conversation has been about God's wrath in the next age, it has always been my opinion that the first resurrection was immediately upon Christ's return. So I never even thought that the elect would be under God's wrath for a minute, because their entering the kingdom means their judgment is finished and they are perfected. That was the distinguishing factor to me, the first resurrection, and I assumed that was understood - the elect being with Christ eliminated them from wrath, so I neglected to explain that in my posts
--- End quote ---
One thing I don't quite understand about this is that at the time of Christs return, at that moment, everyone is still evil - sinners. Is that where
1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV) "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
changes the elect?
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