> General Discussions
1 Cor 15:51
Kat:
--- Quote from: Jeff on March 10, 2016, 07:08:56 PM ---
One thing I don't quite understand about this is that at the time of Christs return, at that moment, everyone is still evil - sinners. Is that where
1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV) "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
changes the elect?
--- End quote ---
1Co 15:35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?"
1Cor 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
v. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
v. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
v. 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
v. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
v. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY."
Hi Jeff, in this passage you can see in verse 35 Paul is talking about "How are the dead raised up," that would be the elect in the first resurrection, because he is speaking to the "brethren." But that happens at the very end of this age, so yes this world is still as wicked as ever.
The dead elect will be raised up out of their graves first and then the physically living elect "shall all be changed- in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." This old carnal flesh and blood body will become a glorious spiritual body and rise up to join their brethren as they all will "meet the Lord in the air."
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
v. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
This is their glorious union with Christ, to be one with God - entering the kingdom, and I believe the beginning of the next age. For them "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
indianabob:
Hi folks,
One thing that I am sure was already covered, but bears repeating is "that none of us will be already perfected or qualified or have been made acceptable when Christ returns. What ever we become will be a distinct and obvious miracle.
When we who have been acquainted on this forum see and communicate with one another shortly after the change is effected in us, we will readily see that it is a miracle of God because of the great and miraculous change in us that makes us seem almost totally different people. The improvement if we can think of it that way will be
99.999 % from what we were the second before our change.
This life is not about becoming better or about letting God do His work in us. God shall do his perfecting work 100% Himself through His son the Lord Jesus. We won't even recognize ourselves after our change is come. We shall be like our elder brother the Lord Jesus, because we shall see him as he is.
Indiana Bob
Mike Gagne:
Hi Kat, are the elect really risen? In Rays paper on the rapture he says its the wicked that are removed.
--- Quote ---RAPTURE OF THE WICKED
Notice that our Lord instructs us that "as the days of Noah, thus shall it be." Okay then, how was it in the days of Noah? Who was "left" and who was "taken away?"
"For as they were in those days before the deluge, eating and drinking and marrying and taking in marriage until the day on which Noah entered into the ark, and did not know till the deluge came and takes them all AWAY, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind" (Mat. 24:38-39).
Did you catch that? It was all the wicked who were eating, drinking, and marrying that were "TAKEN AWAY," not Noah and his family!
And so here we have a principle that is used throughout the entire Bible--the good are left and the bad are taken away. Immediately after verse 39 where the wicked are "taken," we have verse 40 which says, "Then two shall be in the field; one [wicked] is taken along and one left: two grinding at the millstone; one [wicked] is taken along and one left."
For further conformation of this look at the parable of the wheat and the tares. You all know the parable, so I won’t repeat all of it. Just notice that the tares
"are gathered and burned in the fire" (Mat. 13:40).
And
"they will gather OUT of His Kingdom all things that offend ..." (Ver 41).
So the tares are gathered out and burned and the wheat is left behind.
Notice Romans 8:33, "... God’s elect," Col. 3:12, "... the elect of God ..." Titus 1:1, "... God;s elect ..." Now look at Mat. 24:22, "Yet because of the elect [chosen], those days shall be shortened." Therefore, the "elect" or chosen ones have not been raptured away, but rather left, or God wouldn’t have to shorten the days of tribulation for the sake of the "elect."
Didn’t our Lord clearly pray to His Father, "I am not asking that Thou shouldst be taking them AWAY OUT OF THE WORLD, but that Thou shouldst be keeping them from the wicked one" (John 17:15)?
One more,
"Again the Kingdom of heaven is like unto a net that was cast into the sea [multitudes of people, Rev. 17:15] and gathered of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad AWAY. So shall it be at the end of the age: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire ..." (Mat. 13:47-50).
Clearly the good are retained and kept, but the bad are severed and taken away! If ever there is to be a rapture, it will be A RAPTURE OF THE WICKED, not of the saints!
--- End quote ---
And then he give scripture that shows the elect will remain,
--- Quote ---Now a few Scriptures to show that it was always God’s intention that the righteous remain on this earth:
"The righteous shall never be REMOVED [or raptured]; and the wicked shall not inherit the earth" (Prove. 10:30).
"The righteous shall be recompensed in the EARTH [not raptured to heaven]" (Prov. 11:31).
"Take AWAY the dross from the silver ... Take AWAY the wicked from the King ..." (Prov. 25:4-5).
"They [the wicked] are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth AWAY " (Job 21:18).
"... take hold of the ends of the earth that the wicked might be shaken OUT of it" (John 38:13).
And finally, "... REMOVING those things that are shaken [the wicked] ... that those things that cannot be shaken [the righteous] may REMAIN ... accepting an unshakable kingdom ..." (Heb. 12:27-28).
--- End quote ---
Then in this audio, its seems he say that the elect are taken out,
http://bibletruths.com/audio/Discussi.mp3
So is it that the elect remain and then the wicked are cast in to them that are apart of the lake of fire? I heard your voice in the audio so maybe you can clear it up for me? Thanks Kat
http://bibletruths.com/audio/Discussi.mp3
Mike Gagne:
Hi Bob, your quote
--- Quote ---but bears repeating is "that none of us will be already perfected or qualified or have been made acceptable when Christ returns.
--- End quote ---
John 5:24 (KJV)
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 6:39-40 (KJV)
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Romans 8:34-39 (KJV)
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord
1 Peter 1:3-5 (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Revelation 2:17 (KJV)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
1 John 3:2 (KJV)
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 3:1 (KJV)
3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1 John 5:1 (KJV)
5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
Romans 8:14-15 (KJV)
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 4:6 (KJV)
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 (KJV)
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
AS HE IS SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD...
Sorry Bob but I don't agree with that statement, thats just a few scriptures out of hundreds that say no to your statement.
R P J
Michael
Kat:
--- Quote from: Michael G on March 11, 2016, 10:43:40 PM ---Hi Kat, are the elect really risen? In Rays paper on the rapture he says its the wicked that are removed.
--- Quote ---RAPTURE OF THE WICKED
Notice that our Lord instructs us that "as the days of Noah, thus shall it be." Okay then, how was it in the days of Noah? Who was "left" and who was "taken away?"
"For as they were in those days before the deluge, eating and drinking and marrying and taking in marriage until the day on which Noah entered into the ark, and did not know till the deluge came and takes them all AWAY, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind" (Mat. 24:38-39).
Did you catch that? It was all the wicked who were eating, drinking, and marrying that were "TAKEN AWAY," not Noah and his family!
And so here we have a principle that is used throughout the entire Bible--the good are left and the bad are taken away. Immediately after verse 39 where the wicked are "taken," we have verse 40 which says, "Then two shall be in the field; one [wicked] is taken along and one left: two grinding at the millstone; one [wicked] is taken along and one left."
For further conformation of this look at the parable of the wheat and the tares. You all know the parable, so I won’t repeat all of it. Just notice that the tares
"are gathered and burned in the fire" (Mat. 13:40).
And
"they will gather OUT of His Kingdom all things that offend ..." (Ver 41).
So the tares are gathered out and burned and the wheat is left behind.
Notice Romans 8:33, "... God’s elect," Col. 3:12, "... the elect of God ..." Titus 1:1, "... God;s elect ..." Now look at Mat. 24:22, "Yet because of the elect [chosen], those days shall be shortened." Therefore, the "elect" or chosen ones have not been raptured away, but rather left, or God wouldn’t have to shorten the days of tribulation for the sake of the "elect."
Didn’t our Lord clearly pray to His Father, "I am not asking that Thou shouldst be taking them AWAY OUT OF THE WORLD, but that Thou shouldst be keeping them from the wicked one" (John 17:15)?
One more,
"Again the Kingdom of heaven is like unto a net that was cast into the sea [multitudes of people, Rev. 17:15] and gathered of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad AWAY. So shall it be at the end of the age: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire ..." (Mat. 13:47-50).
Clearly the good are retained and kept, but the bad are severed and taken away! If ever there is to be a rapture, it will be A RAPTURE OF THE WICKED, not of the saints!
--- End quote ---
And then he give scripture that shows the elect will remain,
--- Quote ---Now a few Scriptures to show that it was always God’s intention that the righteous remain on this earth:
"The righteous shall never be REMOVED [or raptured]; and the wicked shall not inherit the earth" (Prove. 10:30).
"The righteous shall be recompensed in the EARTH [not raptured to heaven]" (Prov. 11:31).
"Take AWAY the dross from the silver ... Take AWAY the wicked from the King ..." (Prov. 25:4-5).
"They [the wicked] are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth AWAY " (Job 21:18).
"... take hold of the ends of the earth that the wicked might be shaken OUT of it" (John 38:13).
And finally, "... REMOVING those things that are shaken [the wicked] ... that those things that cannot be shaken [the righteous] may REMAIN ... accepting an unshakable kingdom ..." (Heb. 12:27-28).
--- End quote ---
Then in this audio, its seems he say that the elect are taken out,
http://bibletruths.com/audio/Discussi.mp3
So is it that the elect remain and then the wicked are cast in to them that are apart of the lake of fire? I heard your voice in the audio so maybe you can clear it up for me? Thanks Kat
http://bibletruths.com/audio/Discussi.mp3
--- End quote ---
Hi Michael, Ray was emphasizing in that article that the elect are not going to be whisked off to heaven, as the church teaches. What you presented from his article is what he believed would happen to the wicked. But he did mention the elect meeting Christ in the air and returning to earth with Him.
http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm -------------------
Notwithstanding, based on all the usage's of this word apatesis [to meet], and we read them all, when someone went out to meet someone else, where did they always go next? That’s right, back where they came from. So if God is consistent with the use of this word, then when the saints of I Thes. 4 meet the Lord in the air, they will then return with Christ back to the EARTH!
-------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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