Dear all
I as a little naughty and I knew it when I posted my first comment , but I really expected more !
When I referred to the resurrection I never had the first resurrection in mind , the thief was not a saint or elect. That I expected all of you to know. In our diligence to find second witnesses in the Bible and to quote a whole series from Deuteronomy ... those really have no bearing on the circumstances on the cross . This was a unique occurrence and there are other in the Bible where you will find it very difficult to find a second witness unless you "read " it in to fit your argument.
Kind regards,love and blessings , Wim
The SUM of God's word is truth. Its really not hard at all to find witnesses to the idea that no man has currently ascended to heaven but our Lord. There are many witnesses to the fact that when a man dies, he is dead, not in paradise. He awaits the ressurection.
Psalm 6:4-5 Turn, Lord! Rescue me; save me because of Your faithful love. For there is no remembrance of You in death; who can thank You in the grave?
Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hands find to do, do with all your strength, because there is no work, planning, knowledge, or wisdom in the grave where you are going.
Death is likened to sleep in the scriptures.
"Consider and hear me, O Lord my God: lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death" (Psalm 13:3).
Deuteronomy 31:16 And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers...
Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption...
Even Jesus likens the state of the dead to that of sleep:
"Our friend Lazarus sleeps: but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep." (John 11:11-13).
When do the dead awaken from their sleep where they know not anything? Instantly as the theif being immediately in paradise?
(Notice too that like God, Paul, under inspiration of the Spirit likens death to sleep)
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
When Jesus returns at the last trumpet, He will raise all the dead back to life.
1 Corinthians 15:51-54
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
The dead really are dead. They aren't up in heaven or down in hell. The whole of scripture testifies to this truth, both old and new testament.
Jesus also said no man has gone up to heaven, not even the theif!
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man.
Do you think Jesus knows what He's talking about?
And just incase it isn't already clear, the Resurrection isn't a past thing:
2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Its still future, that 'LAST trumpet' (See above verses for reference) when Jesus returns to establish His kingdom!
This is precisely why NO VERSE is at all becoming its OWN interpretation! That in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
2Pe_1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its own explanation."
Psa_119:160 The sum of Your word is truth, And all of Your righteous ordinances are eonian."
Mat_18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
2Co_13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
In Christ,
Alex