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[Dave in Tenn]

Bingo.

[skip]

Pro 9:7 He who admonishes a mocker is procuring dishonor to himself, And he who reproves a wicked man gets himself a blemish."
Pro 9:8 Do not reprove a mocker lest he should hate you; Reprove a wise man, and he shall love you."

Pro 23:9  Do not speak in the hearing of a fool, For he will despise the wisdom of your words.

[narroway]

Amen, Amen and Amen 

[octoberose]

Sorry for the double post, but I just had to share this. I was reading the paper 'Does All mean All?' again today and all throughout my reading I had this thought stuck in my head that Scripture is for the Elect ONLY. Then I came across this quote at the end of the paper I never noticed before lol.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5605.0.html

BOTTOM LINE: It is not necessary; we are not obligated; it is not incumbent upon us; we do no NEED to prove our faith to the satisfaction of those who DESPISE THE WORD OF GOD! If we know it in our hearts and minds we are not obligated to prove it to these people that despise the word of God, we’re not obligated. But I teach this, of course for our benefit.
------------------------------

Before this thread started I had asked God to show me if it was important to share the good news we have learned here at bible truths to those without. Bit by bit and little by little over the past few years and more so over the last few weeks, either through Scripture, or through posts made by forum members and through Ray's papers, God was telling me no.

The truths we know and love as written in the Scriptures and as expounded by Ray are not for everyone. Scripture is not for everyone. The Scriptural references and witnesses that were posted on this thread show that. And it is because like Ray said, "they cant handle the truth". 

Any teaching or preaching that needs to be done, is for the benefit and for the perfecting of the Saints.

Eph 4:11  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Col 3:14  And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Col 3:15  And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Col 3:16  Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Everything written in Scriptures is all for us. Everything Ray wrote according to what God showed him is for us. I know this is probably no big deal to some of you, but it is a revelation to me. Just want to say I think (I hope) I finally understand.

I just don't see it that way. Consider Romans 10
14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?[c] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
  So, I would like the world to hear and believe and if that means I open my mouth and preach the scripture, then I will do that.

[Porter]

I just don't see it that way. Consider Romans 10
14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?[c] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
  So, I would like the world to hear and believe and if that means I open my mouth and preach the scripture, then I will do that.

If you read a little further down you will see because of the work of the Apostles that the world has heard, but did not believe or obey.

Rom 10:18  But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 10:19  But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Rom 10:20  But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
Rom 10:21  But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

There really is not too many places (if any) left on earth where people havent heard of Jesus, due to the writing and distribution of the Scriptures by the Prophets and Apostles. Yet they all knew who the Scriptures were written for.

1Pe 1:10  Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11  Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12  Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

1Co 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Of all the hundreds of people I've shared the truth with, not one of them has accepted or agreed with the truths we here at BT know and believe. If anything they were offended. They really do not want to hear it, believe it or do it. I have learned this the hard way. Not even my own wife believes it at this time.

The Baptist who came to my house to try and "save" me were the last ones I will ever share these truths with, unless I'm asked. And they definitely were not asking. They even used the very same Scriptures you used in defense of "sharing" the gospel. It was actually more like they were trying to stuff it down my throat.

If you have been called to preach and teach then do it. If God is with you, you will succeed. Not many are teachers, and not many should even want to be teachers IMO because teachers will be judged more severely if they mis-lead some by making a mistake. Besides, there is an "more excellent way" then teaching.

1Co 12:29  Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30  Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31  But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. 

1Co 13:1  If I speak the languages of men and of angels, but do not have love, I am a sounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2  If I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so that I can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3  And if I donate all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
1Co 13:4  Love is patient; love is kind. Love does not envy; is not boastful; is not conceited;
1Co 13:5  does not act improperly; is not selfish; is not provoked; does not keep a record of wrongs;
1Co 13:6  finds no joy in unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth;
1Co 13:7  bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
1Co 13:8  Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for languages, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end.

Honestly, I believe there will come a time when we all will have a chance to teach the world, but right now is the time when we need to be taught. We are doing that here at BT and where ever believers fellowship.

[octoberose]

Rom 10:21  But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Yes, this is how Romans 10 ends. I'm thinking stretching out our hands to this disobeying people is part of how we live our lives.
 As far as the whole world knowing Jesus, I really do not think so.  The name  of Jesus is well known, but the mission of Jesus and the truth of Jesus is not. A great deal of the world is Muslim and they do not have knowledge of the true Jesus. I don't even have to go to the Muslim world or Russia or China to tell you that people don't know the simplest things anymore about the Jesus 'story'. When  Tyler Perry decides that young people do not know about Jesus so he makes a TV musical about the passion- well, really, they don't know anything. They think it's a fairytale. They know very, very little.

[Porter]

Agreed octoberose. Billions have died having never heard about Jesus. Even those that have heard about Him and preach about Him, still do not actually believe and obey Him. At least it seems we agree that the name of Jesus is well known.

Hopefully God will give you better success at sharing His Word than He did for me. It certainly is possible that He will do that for you. Look at what He has done with Ray's ministry. Albeit Ray worked really hard and studied probably thousands of hours getting it right. Yet even he made the occasional mistake, but he could admit that and correct it.

Thanks octoberose, I appreciate the discussion.

[Kat]

The whole Christian world - the many - does no 'know' Christ, they are blind to this truth and that is the way it is meant to be in this age.

Mat 7:22  “Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
v. 23  “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Christ carried this out in His ministry, He was not trying to open the masses eyes, but spoke so they could not understand. Only those very few disciples were pulled aside and taught the truth.

Mat 13:13  “Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand
v. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
 And seeing you will see and not perceive; 
v. 15  For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
 Their ears are hard of hearing,
 And their eyes they have closed,
 Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
 Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
 So that I should heal them.’
v. 16  “But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 
v. 17  “for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

This has been the same all the way since Jesus spoke those words till now, many are called but few, very few are chosen. He already has those designated who are the chosen few and He will certainly make sure to learn these truths and that could certainly be through us.

Eph 1:4  just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

I just don't see that we need to do out reach to the world in sharing this truth, God can and will bring those chosen few that He desires to know these things to Him, with or without us.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lostANDfound]

I learned something in that conversation (interrogation) with my cousin the pastor.  Pastors don't like being told that God doesn't need them to save anyone.