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[rick]

I remember reading where Ray said if we had the same circumstances as Adoph we would of done the same thing.

I like how they the Jews brought to Jesus the women who was caught in adultery and knowing the law of Moses that she should be stoned to death heard these words , let he here who is without sin cast the first stone.

I notice not one picked up a stone but all walked away . Under such circumstances as they the Jews standing there that day with Christ, would you of cast the first stone at Adolph ?

God bless.

[lareli]

Why is Adolph our go-to guy when trying to illustrate the worst or the most guilty person in history?

I don't think referring to Adolph does your point justice Rick. I agree with your point but Adolph isn't someone any of us ever saw face to face and the culture and circumstances surrounding his life choices are unrelatable to us.

I would ask.. Given the opportunity, would you cast a stone at a violent serial child rapist?

[rick]

Hi Largeli,

we never saw the women who committed adultery neither face to face but the violence serial rapist doesn't come close to the atrocities of Adolph .

My apologies for not asking the question as you would of have Largeli but after all Im not you.

God bless.

[Kat]

Rick with the understanding that I have now, I would say I would NOT "cast the first stone" towards any person no matter what their sin. And here is my reason why, from the Scripture.

Heb 10:30  For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge His people."
v. 31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I'm not just trying to give the proper answer, it is really how I feel. If God really is sovereign and I certainly believe He is, then He has set the path that each and every one of us will walk (Pro 16:9; 20:24). So who am I to think I should judge anybody's life, much less take it upon myself to punish them? I mean I can and do discern by a person's behavior, if I want to be around them or not... but I know everybody is going to give account and I need not take matters into my own hands.

Now I'll admit when watching an evil person on a movie and the 'good' guys finally take him/her out, I feel relieved... I'm trying to figure out if even that is a wrong attitude. Anyway good question to make us think.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[rick]

Hi Kat,

I agree with you,  I find I have so much less condemnation for everyone in my life as a result of learning Gods trurhs, I understand why the human experience is like it is.

God does change us with each experience in life we have.

God bless.

[lareli]

Hi Largeli,

we never saw the women who committed adultery neither face to face but the violence serial rapist doesn't come close to the atrocities of Adolph .

My apologies for not asking the question as you would of have Largeli but after all Im not you.

God bless.

Wasnt trying to criticize you or put you down in regards to your question. I have used Hitler a few times when giving an example too. Just reading your question made me think about why he is sort of our (our societies) default example of the worst guy.

True we never saw the woman who committed adultry but we have in our society/culture today, people who commit adultry so it's not difficult to imagine facing someone who commits adultry. It's common place. So too, is it common place to read about or hear on the news a case of a child abuser. In my mind at least, we (society) tend to look upon those who hurt children as the worst of the worst sinners. Which is what you're trying to illustrate when you (and myself) use Adolph as an example of someone we might feel righteous enough to throw stones at.

Again not knocking your post. Good post and thought.

As far as the violent serial rapist not coming close to the atrocities of Hitler... I'll ask, what exactly were Hitlers atrocities? Did Hitler ever kill one single Jew? Who's atrocities are worse, Hitlers or the men who obeyed his orders?

I read a quote somewhere that read 'I don't fear the Hitlers, or Mao's or Stalins... I fear the millions of people who follow their orders'.

Without loyal subjects Hitlers opinions and ideas would just be opinions and ideas. It's the obedience to authority that makes genocide real.

[Dennis Vogel]

One reason you should not cast the first stone is everyone of us is capable of doing the very worse sins.

If you were born under certain circumstances and raise a certain way you would become a certain type of person.

Pro 22:6  Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Works both ways. Saddam Hussein's sons are good examples.

[skip]

Judgments that are commanded
Joh 7:24  Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see if they are of God, for many false prophets have come out into the world."
1Jn 4:2 In this you know the spirit of God: every spirit which is avowing Jesus Christ, having come in flesh, is of God,
1Jn 4:3 and every spirit which is not avowing Jesus the Lord having come in flesh is not of God. And this is that of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and is now already in the world."

2Jn 1:1 The elder to the chosen lady and her
children, whom I am loving in truth, and not I only, but all also who know the truth,
2Jn 1:2 because of the truth which is remaining in us, and will be with us for the eon."
2Jn 1:3 With us will be grace, mercy, peace from God, the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love."
2Jn 1:4 I rejoiced very much that I have found your children walking in truth, according as we obtained a precept from the Father."
2Jn 1:5 And now I am asking you, lady, not as writing a new precept to you, but a precept which we have from the beginning, that we may be loving one another."
2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we may be walking according to His precepts. This is the precept, according as you hear from the beginning, that you may be walking in it;"
2Jn 1:7 for many deceivers came out into the world, who are not avowing Jesus Christ coming in flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."
2Jn 1:8 Be looking to yourselves, that you should not be destroying that for which you work, but you may be getting full wages."
2Jn 1:9 Everyone who is taking the lead and not remaining in the teaching of Christ has not God. He who is remaining in the teaching, this one has the Father as well as the Son."
2Jn 1:10 If anyone is coming to you and is not bringing this teaching, be not taking him into your home, and say not to him, "Rejoice!"
2Jn 1:11 For he who is saying to him to be rejoicing is participating in his wicked acts.
2Jn 1:12 Having much to write to you, I resolved not to do it with paper and ink, but I am expecting to come to you and to speak mouth to


 

[willemv]

Hi  All

I basically agree with Kat about "not casting the first stone " and "discern peoples behaviour to decide whether I can associate with them or not.
The movie thing however, I can feel much the same when the good guys sort out the baddies, however I have never heard any of these "good guys " profess Jesus as their Saviour and if they did , they would not be going around to take out the baddies, so maybe we (myself included ) should not watch those movies.
As far as Hitler bashing goes , I think that is also  wrong for a variety of reasons:when Pilate declared he could find no wrongdoing in Jesus , the Jews cried out :"Let his blood be on us and our children ". This seems also to be a prayer (actually a curse ) God heard and the Jews have in fact been persecuted through the next 2000 years by the Romans ,by the "christians" , by the Spanish , by the English , and by the Germans.Hitler was was only another tool in God's plan . That is why I personally don't feel much for these Holocaust commemorations and I am not in the least antisemitic . I remember clearly how in WW2 my own parents(at the peril of being deported themselves) sheltered quite a few Jewish people in transit before they could get permanent safehouses or another identity. That was in the Netherlands where I grew up as a kid.Anyway before Adolph there was Pharaoh ,Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus (a goody-God's servant), Alexander , the Roman Ceacars,the RCC and the Papacy ( probably the biggest killers in human history), the Reformers who broke up the Church of Christ into hundreds of denominations , Napoleon , Stalin,Hitler and now Bush/Obama who collectively are responsible for the death of millions in the Middle East.
Do we get the message? God raised all these tyrants as part of His Plan ;He said so Himself  of Pharaoh , Nebuchadnezzar and Cyrus in the OT and had it prophesied by His prophets (over and over ) in OT times for our age.The only way for true believers to handle this is not to Judge but to OBSERVE world history past and present and glorify God that He is true to His Word and above all not neglecting to go stand ""on the sand and turn around ", recognising the beast within ourselves ,repent  unto holiness , like Christ said :"go and sin no more "(Jhn 8 :11 )
Yours in Christ, Wim (short for Willem )

[octoberose]

"Stalin,Hitler and now Bush/Obama who collectively are responsible for the death of millions in the Middle East."

Why make up numbers to make your point? I can't believe I'm defending people like this but they have not killed 'millions'.

[willemv]

Octoberose , I could have phrased that better ,like "Bush /Obama/NATO " and "deaths / displaced". But that was not he point - the point was to observe history past and present in the light of God's plan and see how God uses tyrants/people to achieve His plan. I am sure there was also a remnant of "good" Germans during WW2. Myself I lived through the SA Apartheid era and as I grew up under these circumstances I did not consider them particularly evil, although many if not most south africans abused the system and many atrocities happened. I was a serious believer in those days as well ( not as mature as now ), I ended up the CEO of a large electronic company which took me all over the world at the highest levels (governments and civil both ). At the same time I started a Social Responsibility Trust in the company with a permanent staff of 12 high level individuals doing upliftment in SA rural areas (schools ,creches and argicultural projects ) which, had it not been for the fact that our company made excellent profits for the group , would have gotten me fired as I was spending money on an area which was not anywhere near the the company mission.At all times during my life I have felt that I was not at home in this world , I was a stranger and in fact very lonesome . I had to participate in social affairs because of my position and I loathed it.
I took early retirement in 1996 as I could not bear it anymore. This was much to my financial disadvantage ,so much so that now at 75 I still have to work to make ends meet and we live a very modest life.
Ok, so now you might understand me a little better. I am grateful to have stumbled on Ray's site and learned that the Lord puts things on your path at the time you need them just before you get desperate. I spend a lot of time studying and I watch most international news broadcasts and follow world events seeing the King of King's footsteps as present history unfolds. Kindest greetings in Christ ,Wim

[octoberose]

Willem , you sound like a man who has had  a life well lived and still growing .
 

[indianabob]

Hi Willemv,

Great to have you with us.
Looking forward to learning more about your journey of faith.

Sincerely, Indiana Bob

[Dennis Vogel]

so that now at 75 I still have to work to make ends meet and we live a very modest life.

I'll be 73 in July and work seven days a week to pay the bills. I understand.

[indianabob]

Hi Dennis,

Well now I am ashamed of myself. 
I only worked to age 70 and took my small retirement.
As it turned out I was asked to retire to shave costs. My job was so essential that they didn't need to replace me. Been on Soc Sec. since 2005 and learning more each day.
I'm beginning to feel like the "Six Million Dollar Man" of TV fame. What with two steel joints and surgical scars all over my trunk. Maybe there'e hope for me yet. 

Fortunately I've got me a Proverbs 31 woman to love me and keep me straight all these 56 years. 

I*Bob

[willemv]

Hi folks
I was not trying to raise sympathy for having to work for a living at my age , glad to see there others too,Dennis! I praise the Lord for the excellent health I have , just shows you how He provides and my Bible does not tell me anything about entitlement to an easy life
 just because you have been spared to reach an older age.
It is really nice getting to know you guys better !
God bless ,Wim

[Nelson Boils]

Whoa!Ye,the OG's, sound like are still fresh,ye are blessed.There are clients which I work with which are born in the 20's and are still living.That is remarkable.To me.

It is being said that our generation,the 80's,90's,will not live till 50.I'm still relatively young,very young compared to ye.I still have a loooooong waaaaay to go till i reach 70.

I hope to make it to 33.

[Dennis Vogel]

Trust me - Age 33 was 40 years ago but it seems like 5 years ago. I cannot believe how old I am. It does not seem possible.

Jas 4:13  Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:

Jas 4:14  Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

I understand this more each day:

Rev 3:11  Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

[Dave in Tenn]

Gen 4:23,24  And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.  If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.

Gen 5:31  And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.

I kinda think I know the man and the young man Lamech was talking about.

[willemv]

Not sure what your saying Dave ,I have always been under the impression Lamech being the first polygamist in this world was just giving his women a " kind " warning not to stray from being good faithful wives. What is intriguing to me is the number 7 which is mentioned repeatedly in this part especially since Lamech was a descendent of Cain ,in fact he was the 7th after Adam ,whereas Cain would be avenged 7 -fold , he claimed to be avenge himself 77 -fold.And these were not from the lineage of the promise.
A small correction- The Lamech that lived 777 years was a different person , the father of Noah. Don't blame you ,it gets confusing with all those sevens.!
Dennis , your bible quotes about age are indeed very true!

God bless, Wim