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[rick]

When I read that, I say I love God but God says obeying Him =  loveing Him . I know what the word obeying means but can we who are carnal minded who have been call by God obey Him fully now or is obeying Christ a process also ?

God bless.

[Wittenberg]

"If you love me you will obey me." - What a wonderful promise God gives us. Someday, we will obey Him out of love, all the time.

[rick]

Hi Wittenberg,

Yes when He gives us a new heart is what I'm thinking.

God bless.

[Kat]

Hi Rick, this is something good to consider and I've been looking for Scripture that applies directly to obeying.

Acts 5:32  And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him."

Eze 11:19  Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh,
v. 20  that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

Eph 4:23  Your hearts and minds must be made completely new,
Eph 4:24  and you must put on the new self, which is created in God's likeness and reveals itself in the true life that is upright and holy.
Eph 4:16  Under His control all the different parts of the body fit together, and the whole body is held together by every joint with which it is provided. So when each separate part works as it should, the whole body grows and builds itself up through love.
Eph 4:13  And so we shall all come together to that oneness in our faith and in our knowledge of the Son of God; we shall become mature people, reaching to the very height of Christ's full stature.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[rick]

Hi Kat.

I been reading the ( A scriptural explanation of the lake of fire ) today and the more I read Rays papers the more I become convinced God does it all.

God is the one who calls us, God is the one who gives us our faith and its God who saves us by grace through faith.

What have we been given that we have not received ? I know Christ said if you love me you will obey me and that is very important because we cannot love God on our terms but only on His terms.

I don't know how Christ will get me to obey Him except He will get me to, thats all I have is my faith in Christ. but I do know every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord.

I begining to think that many scriptures cannot come to pass until the resurrection and God changes us all.

God bless.

[cheekie3]

Rick -

I agree that Our Heavenly Father does it all as otherwise He would not be Sovereign; and I understand that He is responsible while we are accountable.

I agree that we are accountable; but I have a significant issue with this aspect - as when this is discussed, we get into "it is you that is doing the doing" issue, so admit it. The issue I have is that whether I do the right thing or not, it is Our Father who has worked out what I would do. So if I do the right thing He has empowered or enabled or gifted me to do so. If I do the wrong thing, I am sad and upset as I wanted to do the right thing but was not able to do so because of the situation I was in and the decision I made. There was only one decision I could have made (whether it was the right decision or not - and yes it was my decision, as it was me that made that decision) - as it was planned that way from the beginning by Our Heavenly Father.

I will give an example on this. The Lord has confirmed to me a number of things regarding the world system we all live in - and He has shown me the options available to all of us. I have chosen a certain path, but He stops me from from proceeding, no matter how hard I try to put in place the steps necessary to execute my chosen path. I know His Timing is perfect; as He has confirmed the reason for the delay from last October to now - which is absolutely amazing, as I knew I was not to proceed at that time, but I did not know why until a few weeks ago.

I keep saying to my wife, why has He allowed me to be lied to and deceived for so long, and now that He has confirmed the Truth about this, why is He taking so long to show me what to do about it. I know He is very patient; and He has made me very patient too through much suffering.

I know there is evil in the Earth; and I struggle on how we are to conquer and overcome evil with good - not for our own selves but for others (whether or not they are the called out called out ones, or not).

He shows me this Truth; and I know we cannot use evil to combat it but we must use good. I am patient, but in my life experience I personally have not seen much of this overcoming conquering of evil - as it appears that evil rules over all of us, and there is nothing we can do about it: I know He is above all; and He has set boundaries and limitations on evil and those that use it for evil purposes (whether they be principalities or men and women).

I know that it is Jesus that calls us out; and it is not men or women - but what exactly are we to do other than be transformed into His Image through trials and tribulations. Are we not to help our neighbours, and those at work, and our extended families. I pray throughout the day, especially for those He has burdened me to ask Him for His favour on them. I know that we are to be living sacrifices; so all can see that we are different by the way we behave and live our lives as living letters in His Righteousness and in the Faith of Christ Jesus.

I am not frustrated - but it appears that He shows me things very early on - and then demands my patience as I wait for His Will and Intention to be rolled out.

I thank Him that He has made it that sin no longer rules over me; and I want to please Him at all times.

My heart's desire is to have the mind of Christ and the wisdom of God to do Righteousness each and every day.

Kind Regards.

Rambling George.

[Porter]

Nice one George

I don't know how Christ will get me to obey Him except He will get me to, thats all I have is my faith in Christ. but I do know every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord.

Maybe it is through the gift of faith and belief that He will get you to obey. Believing is one of the requirements to being saved.

Act_16:31  And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Rom_10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Honestly I think your off to a good start being here in the company of other believers Believe He will finish the work He started and also make your calling and election sure.

2Pe 1:5  And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6  And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7  And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8  For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9  But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10  Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11  For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Php 3:10  That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11  If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12  Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13  Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14  I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

1Co 9:24  Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25  And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26  I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27  But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Judging from the Scriptures above, I get the feeling it takes an concerted and conscious effort to overcome. This is of course according to the grace and power given to us.

I begining to think that many scriptures cannot come to pass until the resurrection and God changes us all.

I'm actually starting to think an resurrection of sorts is happening now in this age. Years ago I read a comment Ray made that eluded my understanding of it till recently. My mind was blown when I first heard it, because I always wondered what Jesus meant.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.0.html

GREATER WORKS

John 14:12  Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me, the works that I do he shall do also, and greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father.

I’ve had people ask me numerous times, ‘Ray can you walk on water, have you raised the dead, have you…?’ As a matter of fact I have. Which is greater, to raise somebody back to physical life, so that they can physically die again or to raise someone who is spiritually dead to spiritual life? God is doing greater things through the called, chosen, Elect few of His church, than He did in His own ministry, when He fed 5000, walked on the water, calmed the storm, healed the sick and raised the dead. He said we would do… “greater things,” they are greater. They are not greater if you’ve got a carnal mind, they are not greater then, it sounds like foolishness. That’s what it will sound like to you, unless you have the spiritual mind to see it.
-------------------------------

It's possible I'm misunderstanding him and that the Elect will be resurrected only in the next age. I know we haven't been perfected or completely changed yet, but we are certainly in the process of being changed as shown through the Scriptures Kat gave. I've also considered I may be spiritualizing it too much.

Anyways the whole point of this was to try to encourage you. It is all just as much for me, because for along time I thought I didn't have to do a thing, never realizing He gives us power and grace to overcome. No doubt all is of God. And I also sometimes  think it's a co-op when Jesus says things like this.

Mat 11:28  Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29  Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30  For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Never knew what a yoke was till Ray explained it as having a spot for two so that they may pull together. It's still His yoke with Him leading the way, encouraging us, comforting us and giving us strength. We are pulling it with Christ only because Christ is pulling it with us.

You know the Scriptures Rick. We can do nothing of ourselves, but through Christ we can do all things. Be not only an hearer of the word, but a doer also. God help us all.

Another rambling from another George. 

[Mike Gagne]

Heb 2:10  For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

[Kat]

Hi George, here is Scripture to go along with what Porter posted.

1Peter 1:5  Through faith you are being protected by God's power for a salvation that is ready to be revealed at the end of this era.
v. 6  You greatly rejoice in this...

This is speaking of our hope that we will be glorified when Christ returns. But first we have to endure the preparation for that in this life, as Peter continues.

v. 6  ...even though you have to suffer various kinds of trial for a little while,
v. 7  so that your genuine faith, which is more valuable than gold that perishes when tested by fire, may result in praise, glory, and honor when Jesus, the Messiah, is revealed. (ISV)

So the elect are being prepared - judgment by fire "on the house of God" (1Peter 4:17 ), now in this life. It's not suppose to be easy to be brought to the most glorious position any human being could ever hope to obtain. Not by our power, but His, of course. We live in a corrupt world and it is hard to live contrary to it and to watch all the people around us who are living totally by the carnal flesh and sure we should help them if we can. But I guess this is all part of the struggle we must endure.

Jude 1:24  Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
v. 25  To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

I'm actually starting to think an resurrection of sorts is happening now in this age. Years ago I read a comment Ray made that eluded my understanding of it till recently. My mind was blown when I first heard it, because I always wondered what Jesus meant.

Porter, I believe you are right about that. We are symbolically baptized into Christ's death, going down into the baptism waters - "buried"... then it symbolizes coming out of the waters - "raised" as He was, into a new life, having received the begettal of the Holy Spirit.

Rom 6:3  Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into union with the Messiah Jesus were baptized into His death?
v. 4  Therefore, through baptism we were buried with Him into His death so that, just as the Messiah was raised from the dead by the Father's glory, we too may live an entirely new life.
v. 5  For if we have become united with Him in a death like His, we will certainly also be united with Him in a resurrection like His.

Col 2:12  buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

John 12:24  Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain.
v. 25  He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal (eonian) life.

So yes the Holy Spirit comes in and because He is in us, we begin to live our life for Christ and He will work in and through us for the rest of this physical life.

John 10:26  But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
v. 27  My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
v. 28  And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
v. 29  My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[rick]

Hi  Kat,

Eze 11:19 tells me that complete obedience to God is future not here and now but here and now is a good time to practice obedience to the best of our ability knowing if we do its God inspired through Divine inspiration.

Reading the scriptures is one thing but believing the scriptures is another thing, My joy is believing what our creator is saying, by doing so, my doubts and fears seem to disappear as my trust for God increases as each day passes.

I understand that only God can give me this kind of faith to rest in His truths while putting aside the tradition of man seeing through them and the blasphemy they bring by believing such garbage as a weak God who only wishes all will be saved but even if God wishes His wishes would still come to pass , that I beliece.



Eze 11:19  Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh,
v. 20  that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God


God bless.

[Porter]

Rick, one last thing, if your still not sure how He will get you to obey, consider these.

Heb 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Heb 5:10  Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

1Jn 4:17  Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

1Pe 4:12  Dear friends, don't be surprised by the painful suffering you are going through. Don't feel as if something strange were happening to you.
1Pe 4:13  Be joyful that you are taking part in Christ's sufferings. Then you will be filled with joy when Christ returns in glory.

[Kat]

Rick, I agree we cannot have "complete" obedience to God in this life, but we certainly are learning - being taught, usually by chastening/correction that's always the best way. So yes we are putting it into practice. The thing is "the best of OUR ability" is not good enough, not at all, God is teaching us that we should depend on Him.

John 3:30  He must increase, but I must decrease.

And how do we "decrease"? I believe that is the process of learning to listen within to His "still small voice" that guides us.

1Kings 19:11  Then He said, "Go out, and stand on the mountain before the LORD." And behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind tore into the mountains and broke the rocks in pieces before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind; and after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake;
v. 12  and after the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire; and after the fire a still small voice.
v. 13  So it was, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle and went out and stood in the entrance of the cave. Suddenly a voice came to him, and said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"

Gal 2:16  yet we know that a person is not justified by doing what the Law requires, but rather by the faithfulness of Jesus the Messiah. We, too, have believed in the Messiah Jesus so that we might be justified by the faithfulness of the Messiah and not by doing what the Law requires, for no human being will be justified by doing what the Law requires.
v. 17  Now if we, while trying to be justified by the Messiah, have been found to be sinners, does that mean that the Messiah is serving the interests of sin? Of course not!
v. 18  For if I rebuild something that I tore down, I demonstrate that I am a wrongdoer.
v. 19  For through the Law I died to the Law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with the Messiah.
v. 20  I no longer live, but the Messiah lives in me, and the life that I am now living in this body I live by the faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. (ISV)

We all progress at the pace God gives us and that is all we can do, but we should always be aware that God is moving us forward in obeying Him. So that Scripture in Ezekiel 11, as all Scripture applies to the elect now, in this life.

1Cor 10:11  Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Eze 11:19  Then I will give them one heart (Strong's, can also mean mind), and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh,
v. 20  that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

"Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them" (v. 19)

Rom 2:29  but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Acts 4:32  Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common.

Eph 4:22  that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
v. 23  and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
v. 24  and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

And this "new Spirit" God puts in them... (v. 19)

Rom 8:16  The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Here is one more thing that Scripture in Ezekiel states "that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them" (v. 20).

1Peter 1:2  elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

1Peter 1:22  Now that you have obeyed the truth and have purified your souls to love your brothers sincerely, you must love one another intensely and with a pure heart.
v. 23  For you have been born again, not by a seed that perishes but by one that cannot perish—by the living and everlasting word of God. (ISV)

All those things that are spoken in Ezekiel 11 is what Christ is doing in the elect's lives now in this age, but it's a process... it seems you can only see that progress when you look back and see that you really have come quite a ways.

Rom 13:10  Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
v. 11  Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dennis Vogel]

I think even though we try, we fail, simply to be taught that we are not in control.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

[Wittenberg]

When I view nature I get the impression that God likes to see things progress. Plants start as seeds and grow into maturity, babies grow into adults, etc. If God is creating sons and daughters, does it make sense to have us grow into that role? God is spirit, what feeds spirit so it grows?
How do we learn forgiveness if nobody sins?

[cheekie3]

Dennis -

Regarding:

I think even though we try, we fail, simply to be taught that we are not in control.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

We are not in control at any time as He is Sovereign; but as we are becoming more and more in His Image, we should be an extension of Him (i.e. Jesus is the Head and we are His Body); and He states that He will let us know what He is about to do - but it seems not so much.

Rambling, Rambling George.

[Kat]

We are not in control at any time as He is Sovereign; but as we are becoming more and more in His Image, we should be an extension of Him (i.e. Jesus is the Head and we are His Body); and He states that He will let us know what He is about to do - but it seems not so much.

Rambling, Rambling George.

George, I agree this is true... but the whole world (accept for a very few) think they have freedom of will and they certainly think they are in control and determine their own fate. It seems to be a particular difficult thing to accept God's complete sovereignty.

I think sometimes we're like Peter, we quickly ready to go out on water/faith to meet Him, but then we see the winds and waves - trials of this life, and we begin to sink. A lot of what we are fighting and struggling to overcome our own self, our natural weaknesses - the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life... and as soon as we get one bad habit beat down (by the help of His Spirit), then another becomes evident.

We are slowly becoming 'like' Him, it's the process, like Dennis said we fail so we can learn the lesson from the correction, maybe it's actually the struggle that makes us stronger... or makes Him stronger in us. But it will take actually being changed into glorious spirit being, born into the kingdom, released from the grievous carnal flesh. Only then we will be completely joined with Christ and perfected, no more struggles with the flesh, because we will be one with and apart of God, then we will be an extension of Him. what a glorious day that will be, until then we must struggle on.

Pro 3:5  Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not depend on your own understanding.
v. 6  In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.
v. 7  Do not be wise in your own opinion. Fear the LORD and turn away from evil.
v. 8  This will bring healing to your body, and refreshment to your bones.

Pro 3:11  My son, do not reject the LORD's discipline, and do not despise his correction,
v. 12  because the LORD corrects the person he loves, just as a father corrects the son he delights in. (ISV)
v. 13  How joyful is the man who finds wisdom, and the man who gains understanding,
v. 14  because her profit is better than the profit of silver, and her yield than fine gold.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[rick]

These two scriptures below are kinda revealing Eze 11:19 and Eph 4: 23 they both agree with one another that God is going to give us a new heart and mind but Eph 4:24 says we must put on the new self.

Well I know scripture does not contradict its self but I have two witnesses saying God is going to give us a new heart and another scripture saing we must put the new self on.

Is Eph 4:24 letting us know that we have a part also with God in giving us a new heart but if that is so Eze 11: 19 and Eph 4:23 does not seem to suggest so.

The most I can make of Eph 4: 24 is God is changing our hearts and mind with our concent through  chastisement but obeying God completely on this side of the resurrection will take in my opinion total Divine intervention.

If Christ cannot do anything on His own I have 0 chance on my own.



Eze 11:19  Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh,
v. 20  that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

Eph 4:23  Your hearts and minds must be made completely new,
Eph 4:24  and you must put on the new self, which is created in God's likeness and reveals itself in the true life that is upright and holy.


God bless.

[lostANDfound]

Perhaps God does the doing and as with so many of our activities it will feel like it's our effort and action and skill accomplishing it.  Theres the reality of Gods activity behind the scenes which He claims and the lesser sensation from our perspective.

[cheekie3]

lostANDfound

Perhaps God does the doing and as with so many of our activities it will feel like it's our effort and action and skill accomplishing it.  Theres the reality of Gods activity behind the scenes which He claims and the lesser sensation from our perspective.

I understand that He enables us to do the doing; so it is both He and us as individuals desiring, thinking, speaking and doing Right.

Kind Regards.

George.

[cheekie3]

Rick -

Eze 11:19  Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh,
v. 20  that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

Eph 4:23  Your hearts and minds must be made completely new,
Eph 4:24  and you must put on the new self, which is created in God's likeness and reveals itself in the true life that is upright and holy.

God bless.

I just noticed something about He giving us one Heart - perhaps this one Heart is His, in the same way the new Spirit in us is His Holy Spirit - or perhaps it is the oneness with God's Heart; like us having the mind of Christ.

Kind Regards.

Curious George.