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[rick]

*links to other teaching sites not allowed*

I believe Ray felt that 911 is prophesize in the book of Isaiah and I was reading this blog above.

Whats your take on it ?

God bless.

[lareli]

Rick could you pm me the link?

[Extol]

I just got to the "Yahaua" part and that was enough for me.

[rick]

Rick could you pm me the link?

Hi Largeli,

I sent you the link, not saying its true or even false , I was hoping to get other views by like minded people . Please pm me your thoughts on this subject .

Thank you for your intrest and look foward to your reply.

God bless.

[rick]

*links to other teaching sites not allowed*

My apologies for the link I put up, I was thinking it was a blog.

God bless.

[rick]

Below is an excerpt from Rays ( When The Towers Fell ) Although its widely believe amongst many here that bible prophecies has nothing to do with world events but only the elect  I'm under the impression Rays thoughts on the matter are contrary.

Over the years I have been asked many times whether or not I thought the end of this world was near and the coming of our Lord was at hand? This question is usually asked with reference to some recent happening in the world, such as a war or rumor of wars, bad weather, famine, a new potential disease epidemic, some huge earthquake, volcano, hurricane, or a tsunami. These events are general, and have been with us for thousands of years. So my answer was always pretty much the same: "No, I do not believe that the end of the world is near, but certainly "…now our salvation is nearer than when we believed" (Rom.13:11). But that all changed on "September 11, 2001." This to me was not a "general" catastrophic happening as has been witnessed time and again, but this was a very specific catastrophe unlike anything before it.

Back in 2002 I gave a short lecture on 9-11. I now wish to make public to our readers the prophetic implications of this colossal disaster, as I believe is attested to in the Book of Isaiah


God bless.

[lareli]

Ya Ray did write a paper about the prophetic implications of the events on 9/11/01... But it's been 14 years since that date. The impending doom that 9/11 foreshadowed hasn't happened. Or has it? Or is it yet unfolding?

[Dennis Vogel]

Although its widely believe amongst many here that bible prophecies has nothing to do with world events but only the elect

I don't know where you got that idea? I don't believe it.

I think the Towers article is still very relevant. Prophecies happen over time. Just because we have not seen it does not mean it has not, or will not happen.

[Porter]

Although its widely believe amongst many here that bible prophecies has nothing to do with world events but only the elect

I don't know where you got that idea? I don't believe it.

I think the Towers article is still very relevant. Prophecies happen over time. Just because we have not seen it does not mean it has not, or will not happen.

Gotta agree with Dennis here. I personally do not know anyone on the forum who believes prophecies only have to do with the Elect. It's just future "gloom and doom" isn't the main focus.

No doubt the events of 9/11 have completely change the U.S. and the whole world in many ways. It caused us to go on the offensive against terrorism on an level never before seen, which in turn made parts of the world hate the U.S. with a passion like never before. From which terrorist groups like ISIS have been born, doing things and making threats that make Al Qaeda and the Taliban look small time.

I've always believed Ray was on to something with that sermon. There is no question in my mind this was a judgment on America for it's sins. The U.S. is probably the largest Christian nation in the world, so it makes sense to me that God would start with the U.S.. Who knows when it will end, but it really looks like it started on 9/11.

To me it's hard to imagine how a nation like the U.S.A. could be destroyed. God has destroyed wicked nations before, and I'm sure He will do it again. And if the way God has done it in the past is any indicator, using enemy nations as a club, then it's something for me to consider.

I don't think anti-American sentiment expressed through terrorism is the only way it could be destroyed. America is deep in debt, in part because of military over expenditures. How long can it survive going deeper and deeper into debt? The economy is very fragile. It's even collapsed a few times, most recently the housing market.

Well anyways you asked for thoughts on the twin towers paper, and I gave you some of mine. It's pretty hard for me to deny how things have drastically change since 9/11. I'm usually against doom and gloom type preaching, but Ray gave some very good arguments from the Scriptures concerning America's role in prophecy. I personally found it fascinating. Then again all of Ray's writings are fascinating and well studied. I'm sure Ray would be the first to say we should study and check for ourselves and not just take his word for it.

[lareli]

No doubt the events of 9/11 have completely change the U.S. and the whole world in many ways. It caused us to go on the offensive against terrorism on an level never before seen, which in turn made parts of the world hate the U.S. with a passion like never before. From which terrorist groups like ISIS have been born, doing things and making threats that make Al Qaeda and the Taliban look small time.

Us?

Come out of her my people.

[Porter]

Good catch largeli, I missed that one I actually edited a few "us" to read "the U.S." knowing not everyone here is from the U.S., and that was the only reason thinking that someone somehow would take an acception to it.

I'm an Native American, and always will be as this is where I was born and raised. The Great Whore of Babylon is in every nation, every race and every person in one form or another with all Her influences. I see Her in "my people" the Eskimo's and I'm at a point where I'm realizing that I need to learn not to hate and judge them wrongly. 

Without a doubt the US is an Christian nation, but I'm sure not many here would argue that it is an Christ like nation. I think it was at one time though very early on.

There is still a remnant here and there where ever God put you in YOUR country. The US is my country, even after God has caused me to come out of The Great Whore. Not sure the point is to take us out of the part of the world that God put us in, but the point is to "keep us from the evil one" whose throne is where they crucified Christ, from which ALL nations drink and fornicate. 

[lareli]

I was born and raised in the U.S. I'm an American citizen in the flesh.

But this is not my country. If it were my country then I would share in her sins and therefore would share in her plagues. I don't want to be held guilty for her many sins.. Hence, "come out of her my people".

[AwesomeSavior]

Look at what has happened in Houston over the last few days with the massive rain. I could go into detail, but it would be considered teaching, so I cannot   

[Porter]

This world and everyone in it needs judging. Whether it be because they catered to Babylon and or because of our individual sins. At least I hope we can agree that out of this judgment the whole world will learn righteousness.

Not really sure what the harm is in calling the US my country. The Apostle Paul still considered those in his country as his "countrymen" despite their sins and how horribly they treated him. Maybe because he loved them and could see a time in the future where none of that would matter when God teaches them right from wrong.

Col 3:11  Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

He calls those things which are not as though they already are. Truly we are all of one blood and one nation and thereby God's kin.

Anyways I do agree with you largeli, I may just have worded it wrong, or it may be I still have yet to "come out of her".

If the mods feel I'm teaching feel free to delete this, I'll try not to be offended.  But please leave the smiles.........

[rick]

Although its widely believe amongst many here that bible prophecies has nothing to do with world events but only the elect

I don't know where you got that idea? I don't believe it.

I think the Towers article is still very relevant. Prophecies happen over time. Just because we have not seen it does not mean it has not, or will not happen.

Hi Dennis,

I was under that impression because of a thread I was reading where mostly every response was implying that God is only dealing with the elect and not the world or what was transpiring within the world but that thread was sometime ago.


I remember reading something where Ray alluded to the fact that God does deal in the affairs of man. My personal belief now is God is judging His house now because judgement must begin at the house of God but I also believe God causes all world events and weather and so on.

God bless.

[lareli]

This world and everyone in it needs judging. Whether it be because they catered to Babylon and or because of our individual sins. At least I hope we can agree that out of this judgment the whole world will learn righteousness.

Not really sure what the harm is in calling the US my country. The Apostle Paul still considered those in his country as his "countrymen" despite their sins and how horribly they treated him. Maybe because he loved them and could see a time in the future where none of that would matter when God teaches them right from wrong.

Col 3:11  Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

He calls those things which are not as though they already are. Truly we are all of one blood and one nation and thereby God's kin.

Anyways I do agree with you largeli, I may just have worded it wrong, or it may be I still have yet to "come out of her".

If the mods feel I'm teaching feel free to delete this, I'll try not to be offended.  But please leave the smiles.........

Yes Porter I think we agree.

It's just that when I read the 2 verses you noted, "there's no Jew, Greek, etc.." I think we can also say there's no 'American, Mexican, African, etc." also I think about when Jesus said "who are my mother and brothers? Those who do the will of God.." I can't claim allegiance to a group of people just because we have the same last name or because we were born on the same geographical land mass. I want my allegiance to be towards whatever is good and right and true.

I read somewhere in the emails to Ray where Ray said that the bible says we are ambassadors for Christ and ambassadors are not allowed to vote in host nations.

If we are ambassadors for Christ then his kingdom is our kingdom and America is our host nation but not our nation.

Just my opinion but I think nationalism/statism is a religion. Coming out of the religion of statism will guarantee more persecution than coming out of the religion of American Christianity (again just my opinion). If I sit in a church service but refuse to participate in the prayer or worship but instead just sit there, I won't incur much persecution from the congregation... But try going to an nfl game and not standing and removing your cap during the national anthem and you will see how fiercely the religion of statism is defended.

[rick]

Ya Ray did write a paper about the prophetic implications of the events on 9/11/01... But it's been 14 years since that date. The impending doom that 9/11 foreshadowed hasn't happened. Or has it? Or is it yet unfolding?

HI Larg eli ,

I think it's unfolding an in insidious way rather than all at once.

God bless.

[Porter]

Thanks largeli for explaining that. I think I understand better now. I guess I was thinking in more literal terms when I stated the US is my country. Spiritually I want to believe that I'm a stranger or an "alien" in the world as some translations put it. Funny though it feels like sometimes I'm an alien literally lol.  Feel so out of place sometimes.

So what do you think about what Ray wrote in his twin towers paper? Is it just Dennis, Rick and myself that think this was the start of something? It's kinda "blurry" for me in a way, so all I have to go on is what ever is happening in the US and the attitude of the world towards the US.

One thing for sure is there seems to be a lot more paranoia than usual. I dunno, guess all we can do is watch and wait for Christ.

[Dave in Tenn]

I have a problem with thinking of the United States as a political entity being "the house of God".  So when I hear that judgement must begin at the house of God, my mind doesn't go first to this country (or any other).  The thrust of the Gospel of the Kingdom is "many are called, few are chosen".  For me, that IS "judgement beginning at the house of God".

World events (whether clearly prophesied or not)--as well as personal, local, and regional events--cause people to act, feel, think, believe, etc.  They 'separate' the wheat from the tares, the good fish from the bad, the foolish virgins from the wise, etc.  That's the process of judgement, to my mind, not the events themselves all by themselves. 

[lareli]

Thanks largeli for explaining that. I think I understand better now. I guess I was thinking in more literal terms when I stated the US is my country. Spiritually I want to believe that I'm a stranger or an "alien" in the world as some translations put it. Funny though it feels like sometimes I'm an alien literally lol.  Feel so out of place sometimes.

So what do you think about what Ray wrote in his twin towers paper? Is it just Dennis, Rick and myself that think this was the start of something? It's kinda "blurry" for me in a way, so all I have to go on is what ever is happening in the US and the attitude of the world towards the US.

One thing for sure is there seems to be a lot more paranoia than usual. I dunno, guess all we can do is watch and wait for Christ.

Ya I agree with Ray when he said 9/11 had prophetic implications. He didn't say 9/11 was the fulfillment of prophecy but that there were/are prophetic implications.

It had to be an act of God for 2 planes to hit 2 buildings and that resulting in 3 buildings collapsing in on their own foot print at freed fall speed. Most people aren't even aware that 3 buildings collapsed. WTC 7 wasn't even hit by a plane yet it fell straight down nice and clean into its own footprint just like the two towers did. You can pull it up on YouTube and watch for yourself.

Anyways I'm no expert on architecture or engineering but I do know there is a group of a couple thousand architects and engineers who say that it is physically impossible that 2 planes hitting 2 buildings could result in the collapsing of the 2 buildings in the fashion that they collapsed.. let alone THREE buildings. The laws of physics were broken on 9/11 which leads me to believe it was an act of God.... either that or one of the many theories that suggest that the buildings collapsed due to explosives and a controlled demolition.. that the US wanted a reason and excuse to start a war on terror that would give them the legal authority to eliminate political enemies all over the world with impunity. This would imply that the world we believe we live in is largely an illusion or deception.

Either way God was the cause of 9/11 just as He is the cause of all events.

More along the lines of Daves thought though, 9/11 has also been a catalyst for separating the sheep from the goats in the sense that it has caused the called to adopt the religion of statism and support the shedding of innocent blood around the world. "Hey better that it happens over there than over here" "freedom isn't free" is the battle cry that reveals where loyalties lie.

I think on 9/11 He sent a strong delusion that they should believe a lie.