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[JDH]

I am currently working on my Doctorate in Biostatistics, so I found myself in conflict with many of what I  thought were the ideals of science. So I thought I'd share what I have found to be true.  Science is good.  It is simply the search for understanding of nature.  The search for understanding and knowledge cannot be bad.  The problem lies in how to deal with God.  By the ideals of science, one is to explain nature by nature and leave out supernatural causes.  This makes it so that science should not consider any explainations of nature which include miracules.  Now I thought this was a bad thing at first, but realized that if you allow supernatural explanations into science then you must allow the crazy person that believes his hampster created the universe.  Now since science never proves anything, only disproves things you run into a dilemma.  That being that it would be impossible to disprove the omnipotent hampster theory.  So as a scientist I would not want theories which rely on miracules to be allowed into science.  Before you boo me, please read on.
I do believe that the Bible is accurate on how life came to be, and that most of it can be shown without the need of miracules.

The actual problem is that there are those who claim to be scientists, who are the Pharisees of science.  They claim that there is proof that there is no God.  They are wrong.  They say the theory of evolution disproves God.  They are lying.  The truth is that there is a Law of Science which makes any other explaination of life impossible without God.  That law is the Law of Biogenesis which states that life can only come from life.  This is a law!!!  These Pharisees of science have said that it does not apply to billions of years ago.  They are lying.  Laws of science by definition apply to all time.  There is no way in science to claim a theory to be right which is in direct conflict with a law of science.  Those scientists have either been mislead or are purposefully lying.  Either way, God created all.

This is why I can be a scientist and a Christian (the capitalization of Christian and not scientist was intentional).
I hope this helps.  I sorry if I sound too preachy.
JDH

[all4love]

Hi JDH,

I was just wondering and I don't want you to take this wrong or bad ok.  I have heard scientists say that the earth is millions or billions of years old.  Now, to my understanding of the bible this is false, do you agree?


P.S. I agree with you 100% you can be a scientist and a Christian or better a follower of God.

[JDH]

No I don't take that wrong, in fact I have that question myself.  I heard two lines of reasoning about this that both have merit. 

One, To god a second is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a second.  So that when God spoke of creation using days he was more speaking of periods of time than an actual earth day.  Or he could have been speaking of a day as an actual day of time to him.  Now the theory of relativity tells us that time is not the same in all places.  In fact in places of extreme gravity, time slows down to an almost stand still. That is to say, a second can pass in a black hole while millions of years pass on Earth.  Which explains that quote in the Bible very well.  To say that it took a day for God could very well have been a day from his vantage point but millions of years from ours.

Two) The other theory that I found has merit shows how God could have created the universe in seven days as seen by the perspective of Earth. It also uses the theory of relativity. Now the problem with explanation of the actual age of earth is that our measurements assume steady-state.  So we are saying that what we see now, is how it was millions of years ago.  That's not true. This theory says that there was a layer of water in the atmosphere that surrounded the earth.  Hence the great flood with that layer coming down.  Under this idea all of the measurements for the age of the Earth would be greatly overestimated, because the earth before the great flood would not have received the levels of radiation that it does now.  Since most of the tests for age have to do with the amount of radioactive material, those test would not be valid.

Which of these is true, I don't know. I tend to like the second idea, but both could be wrong and I would still know.  God IS
Science, I think, will at sometime explain how life came to be if the pharisees of science I spoke of don't not too greatly influence the real scientists.

With Love,
JDH

[Mickyd]

This is a touchy subject....But here is my opinion. Science is not wrong.....nither is the Bible. How can this be so? Well, since the general interpritation of the Bible has been grossly wrong for the last 3000 years about almost everything in it....then why is it so hard to believe that the interpritation of the age of the Earth and humanity have been mis-interpreted? In my opinion...it has. But, that would rase some big questions here.

[buddyjc]

I am not a scientist by any stretch of the word, but when saying that the days in Gen. 1 are symbolic of ages there arises some questions.  Did the length of a day change from day 5 to day 6?  Adam was created on day six, and of course day 7 was the sabbath.  I do not believe Adam was a million years old.  Also, how long is an evening and a morning? 

Gen 1:5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Gen 1:8  And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Gen 1:13  And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Gen 1:19  And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Gen 1:23  And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

Gen 1:31  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day

Gen 2:1  Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Gen 2:2  And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Another question if I may.  Why can't we just believe that God could have made the earth and all that is in it in six literal 24 hour days.  As a scientist you would probably know that the sun is shrinking at a rate of 4 feet per day.  Just one million years ago, the sun would have been so big no life could exist anywhere on earth.  The magnetic field is growing weaker all the time.  One million years ago it would be so strong life could not exist.  There seems to be too many questions.  I choose to believe that our infinite God is surely capable of creating everything we see and don't see in six literal 24 hour days.

Brian

[all4love]

Your absolutely right Mongoose, The reason for my question to JDH was not to start a conflict or anything it was more of a curiousity thing because of the title of the thread "Evolution"  I am so sick and tired of hearing about Evolution.  It isn't true, we did not all evolve from Monkeys.

[buddyjc]

Hey, I was just saying what my thoughts were.  That post was not directed specifically to you Mongoose.  I am sorry if it came across as starting 'conflict.'  Please forgive.

Your Brother,
Brian

[Sorin]

Life is such a mystery. And while I tend to believe that this universe and everything in it was created, I often find it hard to believe that The Creator of it all actually loves us (or rather me). It seems more like we are left to fend for ourselves. And as if He created it just to see what would happen without any sense or purpose for it. 


...and yet despite all that, I don't hate God. I hate myself.

[RobRoyal]

Thanks for the topic JDH, I love the whole area of apologetics. Creation/evolution is a favorite of mine. You can add to the violation of the Law of Biogenesis" by evolution: The 1st Law of thermodynamics, the second law of thermodynamics- "erntropy" which says that the whole universe is moving from greater to lesser order and complexity - so how could evolution be moving in the opposite direction of the entire universe? Other laws violated- law of cause and effect, information theory etc. Cheers to you JDH for standing as a Christian in a field dominated by atheists (which is the only reason the theory of evolution has made it so far-it ain't the evidence)
God bless'
Rob

[angie]

Life is such a mystery. And while I tend to believe that this universe and everything in it was created, I often find it hard to believe that The Creator of it all actually loves us (or rather me). It seems more like we are left to fend for ourselves. And as if He created it just to see what would happen without any sense or purpose for it.


...and yet despite all that, I don't hate God. I hate myself.

Oh Sorin,

I'm really sorry you feel like that just now. I don't really know what to say for fear of sounding flippant in some way, because that is the last thing that I would wish to mean to be. I haven't quoted any scriptures either because I wanted to reply to you now, not after I've had a chance to look some things up and I didn't want your post to get lost in amongst the topic replies.

I can understand where you are coming from with your thinking. I never understood [and still don't sometimes] why some of the worst crimes of humans toward other human beings could be 'part of the plan'. I personally have had some of the worst experiences it is possible to have [as do many others here I think] practically from the moment of being born here in the early sixties [1961] 'out of wedlock', it went downhill from there.
During all of these 'times', I felt alone, like a fish floundering out of water on the sand, desperately trying to pick myself up and carry on. I thought I was doing not too badly considering. When the last major incident/circumstance happened along, I cracked. I gave up and just wanted to go to my bed and lay down and die. I'd had it. It seemed everyone I'd ever cared for or cared for me were dead, why not me too. Life was just way too hard. I hated life and me in it.
Then I met God.
There is a scripture that means that God will always give you a way out of a situation, a means of escape [sorry, if anyone knows where it is, please post it]

God himself was my way out when He dragged me to Jesus, there was just nothing and no-one else that could possibly have healed my broken spirit. It wasn't just broken, it was smashed to smithereens!. He certainly knows how to get someones FULL attention.That was one year ago in July just past. I am indeed a new person, the old is gone [full verse in corinthians somewhere I think]
When you hate yourself and your life like this Sorin, you invite change. You cannot change yourself anymore than I could change myself. God is doing that for you now. I know how difficult it can be grasping this fact because we can't physically see God standing beside us as though another person present. Nevertheless, He is, was and always will be there. Looking back on my own life, I can only see that now. Also, had my life not been so very full of difficult circumstances, I would not have learned the lessons I have, and not been where I am now [in Christ]

He has called you, you are being chastened into His image, Why? Because He wants you as a son. He loves you. When you hate your 'carnal' self and world to the point of destruction, what else can you do but change? where else can you go, but to God?
I too found it hard to believe that such a great and powerful all-knowing God, creator of the universe, could be even remotely interested in the insignificant zero that was me. Truth is, He is very interested in us all [I'm still in awe of the fact!]

Hang in there Sorin, you are not alone, you will 'get there' just like the rest of us, each at our 'appointed time' My prayers include you.
Sorry if I seemed to ramble on a bit more than you would have liked, but your post seemed to indicate you were feeling quite down. What I've said comes from the heart, not quoted from scripture as such, I hope you don't mind.

God be with you
Angie
x

[Kat]

Hi Sorin,

1Co 10:13  No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

We must all go through this period of total loathing of ourself,
it is then that God can use us.
Only then are we willing to turn it all over to God,
because we no longer let self rule.

Hold on for now,
because God can open up things to you that have never dreamed of.

mercy,peace, and love
Kat

[Sorin]

Thanks for the kind words Angie and Kat. And don't worry Angie, I didn't think you were "rambling". 

Take care,
Sorin

[Chris R]

Hello,

This subject has come up before, While i believe the intentions are harmeless, I think there are more than enough open forums to debate, and/or discuss evolution.

Eventually the seven day creation is debated, and then the subject can go sour.
So..lets move on...

Thanks

Chris R