5 stages of grief

[AwesomeSavior]

I was on the internet yesterday, and came across the name of Elisabeth Kubler-Ross. I remembered that she was the woman who postulated a series of emotional stages experienced regarding death and dying, wherein the five stages are denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.

The thought occurred to me that perhaps many who are about to be judged, and being judged, in the Lake of Fire will experience at least some of these emotions as well, since this period of time is also known as the "SECOND death". [Revelation 21:8] Also..."However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual" [1 Corinthians 15:46].

There seems to be many Scriptural references throughout the Gospels to this kind of emotional reaction to a 2nd death that is forthcoming, and here are 2 of them, from Jesus:

1) Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' [Matthew7:22, which could be a combination of denial, anger and bargaining].

2) There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out [Luke 13:28, again a form of denial, anger, and bargaining, perhaps?]

So perhaps this is another example of "That which has been is what will be, That which is done is what will be done, And there is nothing new under the sun [Ecclesiastes 1:9]?

Dean

[Dennis Vogel]

I've thought about these things too. We don't really know much about the judgement process.

But IMO much of the grief will come from discovering they were wrong.

I always think about the man in Pakistan that blew himself up along with 30 little girls (6 to 11 yrs) in an all girls schoolroom. He believed 100% he was doing God's will (how easily we are indoctrinated). He thought he was doing a good thing. He will most likely be gnashing his teeth.

But how harshly will he be judged? In his heart he thought he was doing something good.

[Kat]

Hi Dean, I'm inclined to agree with you on this. I do think the world will be in emotional turmoil when Christ returns and turns much of what they hold dear upside down. In Revelation 18 the passage brings this out in speaking about Babylon being deposed and even shows how the rest of the world will mourn over her as well. (I'm adding a few comments).

Rev 18:2  And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen...

Rev 18:8  Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death (this must be the second death) and mourning and famine (Strong's - the idea of destitution). And she will be utterly burned with (cleansing, correcting) fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.
v. 9  "The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning,
v. 10  standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.'
v. 11  "And the merchants of the earth (people that bought into her deception) will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore:

Rev 18:15  The merchants of these things, who became rich by her, will stand at a distance for fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

Rev 18:19  "They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea (of mankind?) became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.'

Yes as we can see there that those connected with the church world will not be happy at all and will actually be in great mourning over their lose... as we all know the beast dies hard having it's carnal comforts being removed.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Jeff]

I've thought about these things too. We don't really know much about the judgement process.

But IMO much of the grief will come from discovering they were wrong.

I always think about the man in Pakistan that blew himself up along with 30 little girls (6 to 11 yrs) in an all girls schoolroom. He believed 100% he was doing God's will (how easily we are indoctrinated). He thought he was doing a good thing. He will most likely be gnashing his teeth.

But how harshly will he be judged? In his heart he thought he was doing something good.

Really interesting Dennis.  Eye opening.  The pain we experience would come entirely from God giving us the intimate understanding of the horror in what we've done.  I don't mean to interpret Scripture, I'm just thinking out loud, because I've always seen judgment as God's anger and my terror of that - rather than a realization of just how grievous the nature of my sin.  Not that God won't be angry, but I can see where He wouldn't even need to be, in order to accomplish the task.

But even more so, the judgment of the acts we've committed, may depend on the condition of our heart, rather than the actual sin. When we see our Sin through our Saviors eyes how could we bear to live with the understanding? The judgment may actually enable us to bear it.

[Dennis Vogel]

One thing we need to learn is good and evil.

Gen 2:17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:22  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: [eon]

But where does it come from?

Isa 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Knowing this, how harsh will judgment be? How will judgement be applied? Out of love or anger?

[Wittenberg]

Jeff, you blessed my so much with your reply. I do disagree a little bit about God being angry. I don't think God will be angry, unless He holds onto anger. God has known since the foundations of the earth of our sins, plus He authored them.
When we understand the reality of our sin, God doesn't need to tell us about it. We will know, like God, the wretchedness of sin and the power of love.

[Kat]

It is certainly a good thing to recognize that God is all about love, that even though He has designed this world to bring all the misery that there is in this age for now, but no matter how much one has suffered it will not compare to the weight of glory that will be brought about in every single human being eventually. Man's idea of God's righteousness and justice is an eternity in burning fire... where as God's plan will bring every human to a glorious state of being in perfection that will never end.

But in order to get to that being perfect we have all these things that happening in this world first, so we have vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor (2Tim 2:20). Yes God will judges the intent of the heart and knows exactly the reason a person does what they do... speaking specifically about those "vessels of dishonor" there is no doubt a vast range and degrees of wickedness and God knows that precisely. Even our courts recognize there is a difference in manslaughter and murder, think how much greater God's perception of the intent of the heart is.

I think God puts warnings in Scripture, because He knows it's unavoidable, so it's more as a way to express what will come, and He gives many warnings about His wrath to come.

Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

Luke 21:33  Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
v. 34  "But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.
v. 35  For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.
v. 36  Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Zep 2:3  Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the LORD's anger.

Consider that there have been rulers that have ordered the deaths of so numerous amount of people for the sheer entertainment of it! Do you think those people that died brutal deaths at their hands will consider it justice for them to just understand the reality of what they did? Make no mistake everybody will give account before our perfect God, before whom we all stand naked, as He sees the very depth of the intentions of our hearts. The Scripture states numerous times that God will pour out His wrath/anger on the wicked, "vessels of dishonor."

Heb 4:13  And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

2Cor 5:10  For all of us must appear before the judgment seat of the Messiah, so that each of us may receive what he deserves for what he has done in his body, whether good or worthless. (ISV)

Rom 2:5  But because of your stubborn and unrepentant heart you are reserving wrath for yourself on the day of wrath, when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
v. 6  For He will repay everyone according to what that person has done:
v. 7  eternal life to those who strive for glory, honor, and immortality by patiently doing good;
v. 8  but wrath and fury for those who in their selfish pride refuse to believe the truth and practice wickedness instead. (ISV)

Nah 1:2  God is jealous, and the LORD avenges; The LORD avenges and is furious. The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies;
v. 3  The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked. The LORD has His way In the whirlwind and in the storm, And the clouds are the dust of His feet.

But God does not act in irrational anger as man does, He will give each person exactly what is needed to redeem them from their wretched state of being. Not even those that have mistaken evil for good (Hitler must have thought what he was doing was good, from his perspective anyway), but they will not escape judgment for their atrocious acts. But I do not think for a second that God will bring bodily injury in His wrath, as in beatings or such. "Out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations" (Rev 19:15), that is not physical, it's spiritual... "He is the truth" (John 14:6) and His truth will be upheld in the next age. Though the world is blind now, each holding to his own idea of what truth is, when Christ returns it will be declared from a very visible God and nobody can claim ignorance of the truth then.

I've wondered about those rulers who inflicted so much suffering on so many people, how could they possibly repay for all that? Well what if God made them a slave to the very people they tortured and killed, becoming the lowest of the low in the next age, maybe another aspect of "the last shall be first, and the first last" kind of thing. Think how humiliating that would be to them, to actually serve the people they looked down on as nothing before.

I believe it will be a process just as it is with us, but with some who have developed such a great disregard, over their lifetime, for the lives of fellow human beings, it may take many many years. But our God has always been longsuffering with us and eventually through the judgments even the most twisted mind will be corrected, healed and brought to a genuine repentance, so they can learn righteousness. Whatever God's judgments will be for this world I think we all will be totally amazed at His perfect righteousness and justice in carrying them out.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

I'm a practical sort of guy.  For me, it is about what works...and what doesn't.  "Know ye not that you will judge the world?".  Well, if so, then how? 

A few things that "work" even if imperfectly in this imperfect world:

Humiliation works, but only when it is coupled with hope.  "Humility" can be false, as well.

Forgiveness works.  I'll not soon forget a video I saw of a courtroom scene where a convicted serial killer was faced by his victims' families before sentencing.  Person after person talked about their losses and wished a horrible fate for this man...including hell.  He sat stonily.  One man forgave him, though acknowledged he had to be punished.  The murderer began to cry.  Forgiveness works, but it is only the beginning of salvation.

Wisdom works, and the gaining of it...whether through the trials of life, a thoughtful aging, study and living what is studied, a life-changing event or something else.  But wisdom is hard-won and easily lost, and both the gaining of it and the having of it make life difficult.

Correction works, but only if applied with wisdom and love. 

I could go on, and I'm still interested in learning in this life-time what "works" and what doesn't.  Mostly, I need it first to "work" in me.  I've already spent half of my conscious life seeing, hearing, and doing in church what didn't work--at least not for me.

Overarching, infusing, and under-girding all of what "works" is love.  Here we have the clearest of examples.  If nobody had loved any of us--no matter how imperfectly--none of us would have survived our first few days.  Love NEVER fails.  It "works" and any other "works" done without it are doomed to fail. 

"Love" can be feigned as well.  Pesky wisdom.   



   

 

[Dennis Vogel]

I need it first to "work" in me.

Someone recently asked me what is my favorite bible verse?

Ecc 1:2  Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

I'm constantly reminded and constantly fail.